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[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

#3: Because Garrus knew Sidonis planned to lure him away from his base and get his team killed.

Right and Prazza totally knew about that heavy mech (or two).

AgitatedLemon wrote...

#4: Those people who tried and failed throughout history tended to be doing what they did for the right reasons. Prazza was just retarded.

Why do you say he did it for the wrong reasons?

Both of these can be countered by 1 comment:

After Shepard and co. showed NO signs of hostility.

[Spoiledrotten]

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Spoiledrotten wrote...

No they weren't.

"Grab the quarian and let's go."

It's true that that's not what they came for originally, but it is what both Miranda and Jacob wanted to do once they found out about him.

After Prazza had already gotten himself and his squad killed before he had any idea they wanted to capture him.

So that they wouldn't capture him.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No it doesn't. Cerberus is there for him (figuratively) regardless. Once again, Prazza doesn't know your morality. He doesn't know you. He only knows the people you surround yourself with and those people are bad. If you hang around with criminals expect to be treated like one.

Cerberus didn't even know about him until Tali told them. How could they have come for him if they didn't know he was there?

Spoiledrotten wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Spoiledrotten wrote...

No they weren't.

"Grab the quarian and let's go."

It's true that that's not what they came for originally, but it is what both Miranda and Jacob wanted to do once they found out about him.

After Prazza had already gotten himself and his squad killed before he had any idea they wanted to capture him.

So that they wouldn't capture him.

That's just stupidity then.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:57 .

[ADLegend21]

bodies on the ground, bodies on the ground, prazza looking like fool cuz his squad's bodies are on the ground.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Spartanburger wrote...

Easy enough to judge people's intentions just by watching and listening to them. It's worked a good 80% of the time for me in real life.

How and when is he supposed to do that?

Obviously he wrongly judged them just by knowing two of them were Cerberus, which is his fault.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:59 .

[Spoiledrotten]

That's just stupidity then.

How come? Miranda and Jacob did in fact want to capture him. If anything, it means that he was smart enough to forsee their actions.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Cerberus didn't even know about him until Tali told them. How could they have come for him if they didn't know who he was or if he was there?

Yeah, good thing Tali opened her mouth, eh?

Cerberus wasn't there to pick flowers, I guarantee you. Once Veetor was brought up it was made clear that both teams wanted to reach him. Better for Veetor that the quarians get there first.

They made it clear they only wanted him for info on the Collectors who were taking human colonists and that they'd return him when they got the information.

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

After Shepard and co. showed NO signs of hostility.

They did though. They walked in with guns pointed too and Cerberus has already demonstrated its hostility to the Migrant Fleet. Why risk Veetor's safety to give the benefit of the doubt to a bunch of murderous terrorists?

Shepard's squad had guns pointed because security mechs were attacking them, not to threaten the Quarians.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:03 .

[DiebytheSword]

False dichotomy in my opinion. You are not a fool because you are not a hero, you are not a hero because you are not a fool.

I personally think Prazza was justified in his actions, as were Cereberus. Neither side trusted eachother, therefore their own interests should come first.

Shepard is a different story of course, with interests on both sides. It's quite possible for you to pick sides or make nice and be justified either way.

If you side with Tali you are honoring a debt of freindship, you take the data off of the omni-tool (which is clearly in better shape to recall information than Veetor) and allow the quarian to be treated by his comrades. You also have a good chance of recovering that information due to your connections with the Admiralty Board through Tali.

If you side with Ceberus, your actions are justified due to the gravity of the situation and general lack of information about the disappearing colonists. Your actions might be considered callous, but you are ensuring that you recieve that information.

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

After Shepard and co. showed NO signs of hostility.

They did though. They walked in with guns pointed too and Cerberus has already demonstrated its hostility to the Migrant Fleet. Why risk Veetor's safety to give the benefit of the doubt to a bunch of murderous terrorists?

They walked in with weapons brandished because they just fought a small army of mechs that weren't even supposed to attack them. Are you intentionally missing the point?


And do you know why Cerberus attacked the fleet? It wasn't just for the lulz.

[Spartanburger]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Kind of like with Cerberus, the Collector base, and the Reapers.

Yes. As much as I hate Cerberus with the fires of a thousand burning stars, I am perfectly willing to work with them until the current, and more important threat, of the Collectors and Reapers are dealt with.
As soon as Cerberus stops being an Asset, they are no longer considered my (temporary) ally. How much they helped in the defeat of the main threat may change my opinion on them.


Work with Shep until the mechs are dealt with. At that instant it would be a very optimal time to test the truth to Tali's words as they (being support) would be in an optimal situation for a backstab.

[Spoiledrotten]

They made it clear they only wanted him for info on the Collectors who were taking human colonists and that they'd return him when they got the information.

Human supremacy terrorist organization who has recently shown hostility to his people...

Sure. Might as well give them the plans of the flotilla while they're at it. Maybe a couple of members of the admiralty board to boot, yes?

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

They made it clear they only wanted him for info on the Collectors who were taking human colonists and that they'd return him when they got the information.

That happens way later and doesn't prove much because Cerberus could be lying. Once again, do you trust everyone this easily?

Or they could be telling the truth, and they show no signs of lying.

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

They walked in with weapons brandished because they just fought a small army of mechs that weren't even supposed to attack them. Are you intentionally missing the point?

Cerberus walked in ready to defend itself. That's hostility. Those guns are dangerous and they are pointed at the quarians. Both sides have good reason to fear the other and that is yet more basis for hostility.

How was it hostility if they were defending themselves against mechs?

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:07 .

[MisterJB]

Spoiledrotten wrote...
How come? Miranda and Jacob did in fact want to capture him. If anything, it means that he was smart enough to forsee their actions.

They only wanted to capture him because they didn't trust the quarians to foward the data from his omnitool. No doubt, Prazza's actions helped cement that in their minds.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

MisterJB wrote...

Spoiledrotten wrote...
How come? Miranda and Jacob did in fact want to capture him. If anything, it means that he was smart enough to forsee their actions.

They only wanted to capture him because they didn't trust the quarians to foward the data from his omnitool. No doubt, Prazza's actions helped cement that in their minds.

Prazza was the first to show hostility, not Cerberus.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:10 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

They walked in with weapons brandished because they just fought a small army of mechs that weren't even supposed to attack them. Are you intentionally missing the point?

Cerberus walked in ready to defend itself. That's hostility. Those guns are dangerous and they are pointed at the quarians. Both sides have good reason to fear the other and that is yet more basis for hostility.

AgitatedLemon wrote...

And do you know why Cerberus attacked the fleet? It wasn't just for the lulz.

No, tell me.

That isn't hostility, that's preparing for the worst. Like I said, they just got attacked by mehcs that weren't supposed to be hostile. If Shepard and co. were hostile, they'd have killed the quarians.

You can read Ascension for a detailed explanation. Or just this-

http://masseffect.wi...fect:_Ascension

[PMC65]

Spoiledrotten wrote...

I keep seeing people say that he wasn't a hero because he died, because his people died and because it changed nothing. Then my mind turns to the events of 9/11 and a lot of citizens and first responders died that day. With this criteria being used they were not heroes. After all, they changed nothing ... the towers fell and people died.

Alright, I take it back, he is a hero. Or rather, his intent was heroic, which is almost as good.

I wasn't saying he was a hero but that using the criteria to say he wasn't was flawed. It's hard to not meta-game here and see it strictly from Prazza's view ... But we do know that Cerberus had already attacked the quarian's previously leaving zero trust there and even Tali does not trust Cerberus ... but she is trusting Shepard.

One thing I can't fault him for is running into an unknown enemy (the mech) ... after all, Shepard does that throughout the game. Shepard even risks his/her life against a colony being attacked by collector's as he bets on Mordin's "bug spray" actually working and keeping him safe.

But that is really beside the point as Tali or Shepard isn't really in question here but Prazza.

In his shoes and with what information he had at his disposal, was his actions heroic? Foolish? A combination of both? Did he have the right to be concerned and think that Cerberus would take Veetor? That their motivations weren't in the best interest of Veetor or the quarians?

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Prazza was the first to show hostility, not Cerberus.

All he said was "hold it right there" when three armed people burst through the door. It was only after that he could have identified them as Cerberus.

He has good reason to mistrust them.

Since they just fought mechs, it'd be understandable to be on the defensive, and once Shepard realizes it's Tali, the squad lowers their guns and shows no hostility.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:15 .