36 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

LobselVith8 wrote...

While the Hero of Ferelden can disappear into the Eluvian with Morrigan at the Dragonborn Wastes, it seems as though The Warden resurfaced (possibly with Morrigan and his son) to Denerim at least seven years after the end of the Fifth Blight (if King Alistair and Bann Tegan were being honest about The Warden's presence in Denerim). What I wonder is, why would The Warden return?

Since The Warden is referenced being in Denerim, I'd imagine that the reason has to be "universal" for all The Wardens. The Warden could be the new Teyrn of Gwaren, the new Bann of the Alienage, the new Paragon of Orzammar, or he could have disappeared with Morrigan into the Eluvian, but what universal reason could have brought the former Warden-Commander of Ferelden back to Denerim? I doubt that, if The Warden romanced Morrigan and gave up everything to reunite with her, that he would abandon Morrigan and his son.

Since I'd imagine the Orlesian Warden would be stepping into the place of The Warden if the Ultimate Sacrifice was done, I'd imagine that the reason for the Grey Warden's presence in the capital of Ferelden might have something to do with Ferelden. Perhaps it might have to do with Morrigan's plans, either opposing it if The Warden opposed her during Witch Hunt, or supporting it if he romanced her and abandoned his authority and power as the Warden-Commander to pursue a life with her and his son?

IIRC some of the flags in DA2 are bugged and haven't all been fixed. You might be experiencing one.

But, it's also possible that he and Morrigan could have finished whatever she had to do in the world beyond the Fade and returned to Thedas to prepare for what is to come.

Or it's possible that he found out Morrigan's real plans and wanted no part, or he could have learned that the baby was evil(soul of an old god after all) and realized that his real child was nothing more than a sacrifical vessel for the return of Urthemiel.

[DPSSOC]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

OP keep in mind that this game completely ignores that one of your companions should be dead. Both Justice and Anders can die in Awakening and DA2 just completely ignores it, you're giving the series far more credit with regards to continuity than it's due.

Except for the fact that Justice is a spirit. Killing the corpse he's squatting in doesn't kill him. And if he or Anders is killed, he can always move into Anders' body and resurrect him. Case in point, Wynne during Uldred's BS. And Evangeline in Asunder. If one spirit can do it, why not another?

Before you bring up Wynne's possible death in Origins. We don't know everything about spirit resurrection, so it's possible that as long as Wynne or Evangeline has the spirit inside them, they are immortal. Meaning Anders might well be alive in DA3 even if you shanked him in the kidney during The Last Straw.

And all of that would be great if it were ever brought up, it's not.  That's why I said the game ignores it, I don't care so much that death wasn't permanent with Anders/Justice, but acknowledge it ffs.  All it would take is a single line of dialogue be changed, that's it.  When Anders explains about Justice rather than giving the same explanation regardless if Anders died in Awakening he mentions that Justice saved him.  That's it would have taken about 10 seconds.

[LobselVith8]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Nice! I didn't get that because I never played as OW.

If you're curious, this is what you'd see for the Orlesian Warden in Witch Hunt:

"Weisshaupt has provided little direct assistance but has recently promised more aid if you complete one small task.

During the last Blight, the hero of Fereldan worked with a purported witch of the Korcari Wilds: Morrigan. The role she and her mother, Flemeth, played in the Blight has caused a great deal of concern to the First Warden. Although scarce on details, the First Warden is offering considerable support if you find Morrigan and acquire some information. What information you need to attain though, is frustratingly vague.

After you sent scouts to track down Morrigan, you discovered that you are not alone in looking for her. The templars believe that she is a dangerous blood mage and are offering a high price for her elimination, and the Crown has soldiers looking for her in southern Ferelden. Morrigan has ignited controversy in your ranks, too. Some believe she should be found and killed (such as your seneschal, Garevel), while others believe she should be spared if she cooperates and answers some questions.

Your scouts recently uncovered the location of Flemeth's hut and report unusual activity in the area."

[WhiteKnyght]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

OP keep in mind that this game completely ignores that one of your companions should be dead. Both Justice and Anders can die in Awakening and DA2 just completely ignores it, you're giving the series far more credit with regards to continuity than it's due.

Except for the fact that Justice is a spirit. Killing the corpse he's squatting in doesn't kill him. And if he or Anders is killed, he can always move into Anders' body and resurrect him. Case in point, Wynne during Uldred's BS. And Evangeline in Asunder. If one spirit can do it, why not another?

Before you bring up Wynne's possible death in Origins. We don't know everything about spirit resurrection, so it's possible that as long as Wynne or Evangeline has the spirit inside them, they are immortal. Meaning Anders might well be alive in DA3 even if you shanked him in the kidney during The Last Straw.

And all of that would be great if it were ever brought up, it's not.  That's why I said the game ignores it, I don't care so much that death wasn't permanent with Anders/Justice, but acknowledge it ffs.  All it would take is a single line of dialogue be changed, that's it.  When Anders explains about Justice rather than giving the same explanation regardless if Anders died in Awakening he mentions that Justice saved him.  That's it would have taken about 10 seconds.

Maybe they didn't include it because it wasn't relevant. Anders may have been planning to merge with Justice beforehand and the exact moment when or how just wasn't important.

Leliana only mentioned her survival because Hawke directly brings it up. Hawke had never even heard of Anders prior to meeting him.

Not to mention, you should notice that Anders was always selective in what he did and didn't tell Hawke. If he threw in "I died, and a spirit entered my body in resurrected me," that might be an even harder pill to swallow than what he already was pushing out.

[esper]

The game does acknowlegde Anders 'death'. Nathaniel and that other warden whose name I suddenly can't remember brings it up. The game doesn't acknowlegde Justices death, but that is because no one brings it up.

[Thiefy]

ugh no. warden is only referrenced in denerim in SOME scenarios. there's plenty of others where she can be referenced as dead or as having been there already as the ruler.

mori and the god baby are not the only options <_<

[EmperorSahlertz]

esper wrote...

The game does acknowlegde Anders 'death'. Nathaniel and that other warden whose name I suddenly can't remember brings it up. The game doesn't acknowlegde Justices death, but that is because no one brings it up.

This. It is amazing how many ignorants are out there complaining about Anders' death not being acknowledged, when it fact it is.

And I'm guessing that no one "acknowledges" Justices death, because no one really knows what happens to a spirit after death, or for that matter that Anders is even possessed by the very same Justice.

[Gervaise]

Actually the "death" of Justice in Awakening is acknowledged there as simply the body he was inhabiting either being beheaded or dropping dead and it says something to the effect that what happened to the spirit inside is not known, which ties in perfectly well with DA2 in that we discover the spirit actually joined with Anders, who even says he thought it was preferable to Justice occupying a corpse. There would have been plenty lying around after the battle for Vigil's keep so he could have jumped from beheaded Kristoff to another complete corpse and then met up with Anders subsequently. Clearly with the body dropping dead on the wife's doorstep, a prior arrangement could already have been made with Anders. Very few people knew about Kristoff/Justice and those who did would have no reason to suspect the Anders merger or bring the subject up when they met him. Nathaniel mentions the fact that he thought Anders dead if you left him at Vigil's Keep, which Anders explains away as a deception he worked to allow him to leave.

The bigger problem I have is not if Anders died at the end of Awakening but if he lived because he is meant to have stayed training mage recruits, left to attend a mage conference, but saying that he is leaving the grey wardens, and then returned for good after several months (not years). It is hard to reconcile this with the events of DA2, particularly if you execute him, but I suppose that Justice could have raised him back up and then as atonement for their act, went back to the grey warden fold.

I'm wondering if the reason the epilogue regarding Hawke and friends was so brief in DA2 is that the developers didn't want to be saddled with the same problems they created for themselves with Origins and Awakening, so it is left vague enough that it will fit with whatever storyline is to come.

[DPSSOC]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Maybe they didn't include it because it wasn't relevant. Anders may have been planning to merge with Justice beforehand and the exact moment when or how just wasn't important.

When you're advertising a game as carrying over data from another any disconnects between the two are important.  If we were told someone was dead in DA:O/A and they aren't in DA2 that's important.  It'd no different than an import where Anora was made Queen having Alistair show up in Kirkwall Year 7 as king.  Or let's say Loghain showed up when you killed him, if it's what the writers want to do that's fine but the gap needs to be bridged.

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Not to mention, you should notice that Anders was always selective in what he did and didn't tell Hawke. If he threw in "I died, and a spirit entered my body in resurrected me," that might be an even harder pill to swallow than what he already was pushing out.

It's no harder to swallow than it was when Wynne brought it up in DA:O.  Heck that wasn't even a spirit she'd known, talked to, and fought beside.

esper wrote...
The game does acknowlegde Anders 'death'. Nathaniel and that other warden whose name I suddenly can't remember brings it up. The game doesn't acknowlegde Justices death, but that is because no one brings it up.

Ok then, don't know if it's a bug or a flag problem but I've never gotten the Nathaniel quest. I have imports where he should be alive but the quest never comes up.  Maybe he has to be in the party I don't know, but I'll take your word for it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Gervaise wrote...

Actually the "death" of Justice in Awakening is acknowledged there as simply the body he was inhabiting either being beheaded or dropping dead and it says something to the effect that what happened to the spirit inside is not known, which ties in perfectly well with DA2 in that we discover the spirit actually joined with Anders, who even says he thought it was preferable to Justice occupying a corpse. There would have been plenty lying around after the battle for Vigil's keep so he could have jumped from beheaded Kristoff to another complete corpse and then met up with Anders subsequently. Clearly with the body dropping dead on the wife's doorstep, a prior arrangement could already have been made with Anders. Very few people knew about Kristoff/Justice and those who did would have no reason to suspect the Anders merger or bring the subject up when they met him. Nathaniel mentions the fact that he thought Anders dead if you left him at Vigil's Keep, which Anders explains away as a deception he worked to allow him to leave.

The bigger problem I have is not if Anders died at the end of Awakening but if he lived because he is meant to have stayed training mage recruits, left to attend a mage conference, but saying that he is leaving the grey wardens, and then returned for good after several months (not years). It is hard to reconcile this with the events of DA2, particularly if you execute him, but I suppose that Justice could have raised him back up and then as atonement for their act, went back to the grey warden fold.

I'm wondering if the reason the epilogue regarding Hawke and friends was so brief in DA2 is that the developers didn't want to be saddled with the same problems they created for themselves with Origins and Awakening, so it is left vague enough that it will fit with whatever storyline is to come.

Removing choice that you promised in a series just because the logistics of these choices is too cumbersome is not the answer.

If anything, I wouldn't mind a game having lots of choice, multiple endings, various outcomes, but then having a "canon" ending going into the next game, in a way that the old Fallouts did, or Fallout New Vegas worked. Choice, branching stories and multiple endings is what gave DAO the crazy amount of replayability (in addition to the Origins), so removing that from future games is not the move they should have made. They should just come out and say "we cannot support this level of choice to import from game to game, so that level of choice will still exist, but don't expect the way things happened in your playthrough to be the way things begin in the next game."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I thought there were no flags for Witch Hunt, so no matter what you did you could never see any responses to the choices in that campaign in DA 2 anyway.

[erilben]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I thought there were no flags for Witch Hunt, so no matter what you did you could never see any responses to the choices in that campaign in DA 2 anyway.

There's flags for starting Witch Hunt, completing Witch Hunt, stabbing Morrigan, letting Morrigan go, and going with Morrigan. DA2 just does nothing with them.