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Overheating weapons are back?


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#126
MrFob

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Joel Green wrote...

Yep, as I mentioned in another thread, the ME1 overheat sound is back, and plays when your thermal clip needs to be replaced (technically, the weapon has overheated). I believe Chris was referring to the gameplay mechanics, and he is correct: The weapons work the same way they did in ME2, this is just additional feedback.


In the current build of ME3, do you still have the option in the coalesced.ini to turn on the hybrid system from ME2 that basically recharged the ammo over time (but would not allow you to reload unless the clip was empty)?
I really like the option to mod the game into supporting this system since it made much sense in the ME universe to me.

Modifié par MrFob, 21 janvier 2012 - 02:36 .


#127
Xarathox

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Ghost-621 wrote...

GarrusV4karian wrote...

Eww overheating weapons....


Eww thermal clips.



Then don't use them...oh, wait. :P

#128
MakeMineMako

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daqs wrote...

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

Anyone else here only use their Assault Rifle in Mass Effect 1? At least with the Thermal Clips you had to mix up your weapons, that's why I prefer it over the heat system of the first game.

Spamming the AR/pistol is a time-honored tactic. Means you can dump more points into other powers.


I never spamed assault rifles in ME1. I used the right weapon for the job, depending on the map and my location.

I only switched to a sidearm when Shepard's long gun overheated (which was rare. I used short, controlled bursts with the iconic Lancer, my favorite assault rifle. I only used the FM upgrade on sniper rifles, which could be horrible heat hogs. Shotguns got a heat sink).

Shotguns were for CQB and sniper rifles were for long distance calls to say "F&@% You" to bad guys.

But then again, I guess it all boils down to play style. I could see where the "run n' gun" types would exploit the system.

#129
jasonsantanna

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What could have been implement . . . a hybrid of both . . . . allowing you to shoot once the weapon overheated you either:

A.) switched clip on the fly . . . ME2 style
B.) hidden behind cover or switch weapon until it cooled down . . . . ME1 style

you would have a choice that would play out for fans of both styles

So basically you would have a cool-down period for guns or either eject that clip to continue firing

#130
RolandX9

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Ghost-621 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

We've heard it in the Collector's Edition unboxing video, but back then most thought the audio guy used random ME sounds he liked. But this? It's straight form the actual footage! This is really weird. Are they bringing overheating weapons back? Maybe (through mods) we will have options to either have limited ammo and use sinks or unlimited ammo and have overheating? That would be amazing! :o


This time, Bioware, Give us a freakin' choice.

QFT.

Just make it a mod. The idea that every pre-clip gun in the galaxy vanished in two years is insane.

#131
Mclouvins

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jasonsantanna wrote...

What could have been implement . . . a hybrid of both . . . . allowing you to shoot once the weapon overheated you either:

A.) switched clip on the fly . . . ME2 style
B.) hidden behind cover or switch weapon until it cooled down . . . . ME1 style

you would have a choice that would play out for fans of both styles

So basically you would have a cool-down period for guns or either eject that clip to continue firing


They've said since ME2 that they tried that method in development to stay closer to the lore but that they couldn't get it to work both in terms of class balance and difficulty balance. It's a great idea in practice but not so applicable in practice.

#132
Praetor Knight

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Well, I figured I'd share some thoughts I've had about Thermal Clips. And one thing I've always wondered is what could Thermal Clips be made of?  So when I had free time, I did some research to see if I could find a reasonable answer.

This is some stuff I came up with and that I've saved in a blog entry:

So there are some references in game to Lithium, which is stated to be an integral part in heat sinks for hand-held weapons. But the question is, how is the element used? It most likely has to be in a compound because of how volatile it can be in its pure form, so then what is the best way to use it?

One way that seems likely is as Lithium Oxide. In this form, it could be used as a Thermal barrier coating on Thermal Clips, to allow for improved maintenance efficiency. Since Thermal Clips are swappable, knowing when they are going to fail before they actually did would extend the life of weapons' components and allow for less failures in Combat. And since we know ME1 weapons had to vent once overheated, it's plausible and fits what is observed in both games. So the coating is there to make sure that the heat sink does not fuse inside the weapon from expanding, as it is drawing intense waste heat from firing. And I would guess that the actual heat sink / Thermal Clip is made of a ceramic, designed to retain a lot of heat.

We also know that mass accelerators generate a lot of waste heat and contemporary test platforms suffer from material fatigue and need high maintenance and part replacements. Thus the need of the precious metals that we farm in ME2 for upgrades and for ceramics (mentioned on Noveria, with certain dialogue with Maeko Matsuo). They have some nice properties that fit with what we know about ME universe equipment, that seem to be composed of different types of ceramics and those metals.
Fun Factoid: When a cylinder (maybe a spent heat sink) is ejected from the equipped weapon, it glows orange. To be that color, the cylinder would most likely need to be above at least 1,100 °C (2,012 °F), (similar to how hot lava can be) and we know they can ignite flammable material from Zaeed's LM.

So from a lore stand point I'm glad that we do not have a hybrid system and why I feel it's better to dispose of the ejected heat sinks / Thermal Clips and not wait for them to cool in combat (namely the concern of material fatigue and expansion). Especially if we ever truly get to fight in vacuum or in very hot locales in ME3.

#133
Yuoaman

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Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well, I figured I'd share some thoughts I've had about Thermal Clips. And one thing I've always wondered is what could Thermal Clips be made of?  So when I had free time, I did some research to see if I could find a reasonable answer.

This is some stuff I came up with and that I've saved in a blog entry:

So there are some references in game to Lithium, which is stated to be an integral part in heat sinks for hand-held weapons. But the question is, how is the element used? It most likely has to be in a compound because of how volatile it can be in its pure form, so then what is the best way to use it?

One way that seems likely is as Lithium Oxide. In this form, it could be used as a Thermal barrier coating on Thermal Clips, to allow for improved maintenance efficiency. Since Thermal Clips are swappable, knowing when they are going to fail before they actually did would extend the life of weapons' components and allow for less failures in Combat. And since we know ME1 weapons had to vent once overheated, it's plausible and fits what is observed in both games. So the coating is there to make sure that the heat sink does not fuse inside the weapon from expanding, as it is drawing intense waste heat from firing. And I would guess that the actual heat sink / Thermal Clip is made of a ceramic, designed to retain a lot of heat.

We also know that mass accelerators generate a lot of waste heat and contemporary test platforms suffer from material fatigue and need high maintenance and part replacements. Thus the need of the precious metals that we farm in ME2 for upgrades and for ceramics (mentioned on Noveria, with certain dialogue with Maeko Matsuo). They have some nice properties that fit with what we know about ME universe equipment, that seem to be composed of different types of ceramics and those metals.
Fun Factoid: When a cylinder (maybe a spent heat sink) is ejected from the equipped weapon, it glows orange. To be that color, the cylinder would most likely need to be above at least 1,100 °C (2,012 °F), (similar to how hot lava can be) and we know they can ignite flammable material from Zaeed's LM.

So from a lore stand point I'm glad that we do not have a hybrid system and why I feel it's better to dispose of the ejected heat sinks / Thermal Clips and not wait for them to cool in combat (namely the concern of material fatigue and expansion). Especially if we ever truly get to fight in vacuum or in very hot locales in ME3.


Goddamn, I would want to get those hot ****ers out of my gun as quickly as possible.

#134
RolandX9

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Ghost-621 wrote...

Why are thermal clips being called "ammo" in the game now? Bioware, you're that desperate for that mindless shooter pew-pew crowd?


Oh, how exciting - nitpicking at terminology because we're not getting the mind-numbingly easy to use ME1
weapons back. This is the way to win an argument! *sarcasm*

I'm glad thermal clips are still in and that I have to actually manage my resources instead of sitting on my butt while hiding behind a crate/wall/rock, just waiting for my weapon to cool down. That's assuming that there was even any downtime with my fully modded Spectre pistol (which included the ridiculously overpowered Frictionless Material mod). Thermal clips make combat more challenging as far as I'm concerned, and I'd rather have this than a repeat of ME1 where I can pretty much have zero overheating and what amounts to infinite ammo.

Ah, I was wondering when this argument would come up again.

You do realize that no sane military would ever deliberately make life-or-death combat harder on its soldiers, right? Sure, there's no way that every grunt is going to have a million-credit Spectre X with Cryo Ammo and Frictionless Materials, but the idea that there isn't one military in the galaxy giving its ground troops ping guns is mind-numbingly stupid. So the argument that combat is more challenging is actually an argument against thermal clips in-universe.<_<

#135
didymos1120

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We're not talking in-universe though, are we? We're talking gameplay.

#136
Someone With Mass

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I really like when people are bringing up the terms "dumbed down" or "mindless"

Because that implies that the first Mass Effect game required intelligence above the average person in order to comprehend its functions.

Let me tell you something. It never did. I think most people can tell the differences when it comes to the numbers of the items in ME1.

You're just displaying your own delusional ignorance when you're referring to the average player as a brainless CoD-player just because they don't want the redundant inventory system to return or other tedious elements ME1 introduced.

#137
didymos1120

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Let me tell you something. It never did. I think most people can tell the differences when it comes to the numbers of the items in ME1.


The best part is, those numbers are effectively useless.  You don't know the enemy's actual health or shield or armor or biotic/tech protection stats.  You just see little bars that go down when you shoot them/bludgeon them/hit them with a power/chuck a grenade at them.  We'd have been just as well off if the guns had just said "Better than what you've got now" when we looked at them. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:30 .


#138
Someone With Mass

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didymos1120 wrote...
The best part is, those numbers are effectively useless.  You don't know the enemy's actual health or shield or armor or biotic/tech protection stats.  You just see little bars that go down when you shoot them/bludgeon them/hit them with a power/chuck a grenade at them.  We'd have been just as well off if the guns had just said "Better than what you've got now" when we looked at them. 


Or they could have used that basic color coding most games that have a lot of loot are using, like TOR and Borderlands, where white/blue is crap and purple/higher color grade is awesome.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:35 .


#139
Aimi

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jasonsantanna wrote...

What could have been implement . . . a hybrid of both . . . . allowing you to shoot once the weapon overheated you either:

A.) switched clip on the fly . . . ME2 style
B.) hidden behind cover or switch weapon until it cooled down . . . . ME1 style

you would have a choice that would play out for fans of both styles

So basically you would have a cool-down period for guns or either eject that clip to continue firing

Like I said earlier: they tried that out in ME2. The fighting didn't flow very well. It was deemed pointless. All the same, they left the files in the game so you could play that way if you wanted to by editing coalesced.ini.

#140
MakeMineMako

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Someone With Mass wrote...

I really like when people are bringing up the terms "dumbed down" or "mindless"

Because that implies that the first Mass Effect game required intelligence above the average person in order to comprehend its functions.

Let me tell you something. It never did. I think most people can tell the differences when it comes to the numbers of the items in ME1.

You're just displaying your own delusional ignorance when you're referring to the average player as a brainless CoD-player just because they don't want the redundant inventory system to return or other tedious elements ME1 introduced.


I do agree that the inventory system was a mess in Mass Effect 1. And that many of the mods offered, I found no real use for in the long run.

As much as I love Mass Effect 1, there were things I would've changed.

But overall, in my opinion, the game was far from tedious. It was an enjoyable experience for me.

And you are right about the name calling. I came into Mass Effect from squad based tactical shooters (Operation: Flashpoint, Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six, etc.). And Mass Effect 1 and 2 felt like "Old Home Week" when I first played them. Also, I used to be big into RPGs back in the day. Finding a game franchise that combined elements of the two, and was easy to pick up, was a dream come true.

So, even a supposedly "brainless" FPS fanatic can easily get into Mass Effect, and get a rich experience from it. It's not rocket science. And the kind of attitude that you point out may just put off the gamers, from other genres, from ever giving our much beloved franchise a chance, losing out in the process. Elitist attitudes don't help our francise any.

#141
Siegdrifa

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didymos1120 wrote...

We're not talking in-universe though, are we? We're talking gameplay.


If it's about game play, the difference about overheating system and heat sink gives 2 oppsite mechanic:

- the overheating system you are satcking ressources until you can't fire anymore.
- the heat sink you are unloading your ressources until you are out of ammo.

Stacking and unloading give sever gameplay difference, wich i'm afraid is more confortable with unloading rather than stacking.

With unloading you ammo, you feels you have to manage your ressources very often, you just can't shoot the widow forever because this is a kick ass gun, that would be OP.
If you were stacking, you could abuse of the widow everytime until you reach is limite.

So, the limite to use a weapon would be determinated by his stacking time, for exemple, if a staking with the widow needed 6 second to reach his overheating cap, it would mean everytime the combat doesn't last longer than 5 you could always use this powerfull gun.

For a good gameplay experience, the game must provide encounter where the rythm to fire weapon must be different, by making some ennemy stronger, more numerous etc.
And to that matter, weapon with overheating system as it is in ME1 is not reliable. If you can't fire more than 6 second before overheating (exemple), it's mean you have to switch your weapon.... BUT ! weapon have a huge impact on how effient they affect the ennemy in ME2 (a feature largely contributing to his sucess), so, to be forced switch weapon for a second weapon that is less efficient may be, is kinda frustrating.

Try to think about yourself, as a weapon user, why would we use "this" weapon ? what we want is the weapon to be reliable in X or Y situation, because our life is on the line, if the weapon have to overheat in 6 second it could be a god damn problem !
The only way to delay the overheat is managing the timing between each shot, that's what bugs the various encounter


The heat sink and unloading ressources allow us to manage our ressources in order to endure more harder or intense encounter, by giving us more flexibility, so i could use the window a lot more longer in a high burst sequence on the same encounter and finish with a few munition left but being alive thanks to the reliability of the weapon. "thanks widow, you didn't let me down, you saved my skin !"

The ammo limitation is an easy and good way to make the weapon not OP because you can't use it forever, but when you need it (and if you didn't waste your ammo on squirel and grunts) you have heavy fire power.


The feelings !
Having a reload animation is also very important with guns, because they are also the expression of "ready to kill".
When your guns is fully loaded, it's mean "ready to kick ass", i never had this feelings in me1, overheating ... bip bip bip... sit .... wait .... when the gun is ready, nothing ... just shoot again, like a plastic toy.
In me2, when i'm pissed off at some ennemys, i reload my phalanx and think "just you wait little crap, the bullet storm is comming"  *click* (weapon fully loaded), BAM BAM BAM BAM !   "told ya !"
In me1 is "just you wait ! still heated à 70% ..... 50 .... 35 .... 15 .... 5 .. ah, that will be enough, waiting is boring ..."
Definitly not the same pleasure, but that's only my opinion.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 21 janvier 2012 - 02:19 .


#142
Travie

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I always modded heatsinks into my weapons (or the higher tech equivalents), so I never really thought heat was a big problem when I was playing ME1.

#143
matt-bassist

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Joel Green wrote...

Yep, as I mentioned in another thread, the ME1 overheat sound is back, and plays when your thermal clip needs to be replaced (technically, the weapon has overheated). I believe Chris was referring to the gameplay mechanics, and he is correct: The weapons work the same way they did in ME2, this is just additional feedback.


very nice! 

#144
Il Divo

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Someone With Mass wrote...

I really like when people are bringing up the terms "dumbed down" or "mindless"

Because that implies that the first Mass Effect game required intelligence above the average person in order to comprehend its functions.

Let me tell you something. It never did. I think most people can tell the differences when it comes to the numbers of the items in ME1.

You're just displaying your own delusional ignorance when you're referring to the average player as a brainless CoD-player just because they don't want the redundant inventory system to return or other tedious elements ME1 introduced.


I just thought I'd take the opportunity to bold all the really important points in your post that I think others should consider.

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 janvier 2012 - 05:23 .


#145
Random citizen

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The problem is pretty polar. One of the main problem with ME1 combat mechanics was that the weapons had unlimited ammo (in contradiction to lore I might add) and weapons fire doing too little damage. This led to a constant firing, which led to the weapon overheating (which some basic weapons did way to fast). The problem with the new system is that thermal clips does not act as heat sinks, but universal ammo. The problem with the ammoblock containing infinite rounds still persist.

ps the geth analysis is strange and seem to only apply to weapons the produce a lot of heat as you canmost certainly dish out more rounds withiout having to switch termal clips on weapons efficient "traditional" heat sinks.

Modifié par Random citizen, 21 janvier 2012 - 11:51 .


#146
The Spamming Troll

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Ghost-621 wrote...

Would it be too much to ask for the game to have both? To, you know, make BOTH parties happy?


yes.

unfortunately us long time ME fans arent new to the series so we arent priority number 1.

#147
frozngecko

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Do you think it could be an enemy power that caused his gun to overheat? (Like how upgraded overload can cause an enemy weapon to overheat)

I would love it if they incorporated the combination overheat/thermal clip system.

#148
Vapaa

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

unfortunately us long time ME fans arent new to the series so we arent priority number 1.


Because loving overheating is mandatory to be a long time ME fan ? -_-

#149
Il Divo

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

unfortunately us long time ME fans arent new to the series so we arent priority number 1.


I could've sworn I played Mass Effect 1 when it first came out and didn't mind the shift....but I guess I don't count as a long time fan.

#150
Someone With Mass

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I guess I'm not a fan either.

Strange things you have to do to be one.