155 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

XDMMX wrote...

Will we have to throw points away in Biotic Grenade to unlock another power?

Powers aren't unlocked by spending points in other powers now.

[XDMMX]

Thanks for the information, at least I can Ignore Biotic Grenade if I end up not liking it.

[TobyHasEyes]

For me a bigger point of interest would be not having Singularity permanently linked to 'Y' (or the class power button), as I like to play without using the power wheel so I like to restrict my AdeptShep to using only mapped powers.

Given the current status in ME2 I used 'Pull' and 'Barrier', using squadmates to warp bomb my lifted enemies, but with the freedom of not having Singularity as -class button- would let me have Barrier as Y, and then I would be free to set up my own warp bombs

 :happy:

[DayusMakhina]

Wulfram wrote...

XDMMX wrote...

Will we have to throw points away in Biotic Grenade to unlock another power?

Powers aren't unlocked by spending points in other powers now.

Is that confirmed?

Edit: Nevermind, linked to an image from another thread which showed locked powers, then noticed there was 0 level up points and that another picture had everything unlocked with level up points. Can you not delete posts here?

Modifié par DayusMakhina, 21 janvier 2012 - 11:29 .

[Shepard the Leper]

I wonder what Bioware's point of view about the Adept is. In my opinion the Adept should be the master of Crowd Control, but that's clearly not what Bioware wants the Adept to be (if any of the devs reads this, please explain the purpose of the class):

In ME2 the Adept is equipped with the only power capable of locking down the most powerful enemies (using Singularity). No other class could CC enemies through protection. But then they designed Stasis - which is even more powerful than Singularity - and gave it to all classes as a bonus power. I don't understand this, it's like designing ARush 2.0 and make it a bonus power - why would anyone bother playing the Soldier class when all classes can do what they can / should do best?

My biggest concern about the ME3 Adept is the complete lack of something unique. The ME3 Sentinel seems to be on par, or even beyond, the Adept in terms of CC plus they have powerful Tech Armor. Even the Vanguard has strong CC abilities this time around plus good old Charge. What does the Adept have? A faster traveling Singularity? A slightly improved Shockwave? And some freaking grenades? WTF are grenades doing in the biotic specialist's arsenal anyway?

A complete mess which could have been avoided by making the Adept king of CC (like they should have been imho) - just give them Singularity AND Stasis as their unique abilities (a faster recharge timer on all biotic powers can easily compensate the lack of a power that has no cooldown - like those damn grenades). I would love having an Adept with these powers:

1. Throw
2. Pull
3. Stasis
4. Singularity
5. Barrier

Warp, Shockwave, Dominate, Reave, Slam, or - if you don't mind a combat power on a biotic specialist - Warp Ammo being the final power. I consider all of em to be kinda redundant and not really Adept - i.e. the master of CC - fitting, but they've got to have 6 powers like the other classes eh?

It's completely beyond my understanding why Bioware tries so hard to ruin my favorite class. Either by giving them a poor selection of powers (and crappy weapons) in ME2 and by giving all other classes at least equally powerful abilities on top of their already strong, unique and fun ones (ME2 after Stasis and in ME3). As it is I don't see the point to even try the ME3 Adept because the only power unavailable to the other classes (Singularity) can still be used by bring along Liara.

I guess I'll ignore the Adept and play my second favorite class, the Engineer, who does seem to have learned a couple nice new tricks AND who does look like a true master of distraction.

Shame on you Bioware; all classes seem to have something unique ... except the Adept. But who cares about the Adept when everyone can bring along grenades and other EQUIPMENT to harass the enemy with "biotic" effects. Or put them in Stasis if CC is their thing? I'm not really interested in the MP part of ME3, but this makes me wonder about what Bioware will give the Adept class. If it's anywhere near the mess of the ME3 SP one, I seriously doubt anyone will want the play that class in MP at all.

[The Spamming Troll]

Jon Phoenix wrote...

Unfortunately Bioware is probably too proud of creating Nova for the Vanguard to realize that Nova would be a better complement power for the Adept and Biotic Grenade fits a lot better with the soldier/biotic hybrid Vanguard.

Since the adept is fragile, having a 360 degree crowd control power for when enemies get close would be great. Especially if it does damage to shields/barriers and armor allowing for use of their other biotics.

Alternatively something like force repulse from Force Unleashed would accomplish the same thing, though thats not altogether different from Nova anyway.

The switch is so simple (and elegant) that there is no way it happens.

this.

implodinggoat wrote...

Well they don't have the shield that's just something I proposed as an alternative to the grenade.

At the moment the Adept's power list is believed to be.

Throw
Pull
Warp
Shockwave
Singularity
Biotic Grenade

an important peice of the puzzle that ALWAYS gets left out, is that adept also get LESS weapons.

vangaurd:
pull
shockwave
incindiary ammo
cryo ammo
charge
nova
*more weapons*

comparing the two classes, which one looks like its got everything it needs, and which one looks awkward and redundant?

ive been a long time adept fan. more so a fan of the thought of the adept, or what i think the adept should be. unfortunately biowares never been able to make the adept into a decent class.

again, look at that god damned vangaurds power list. why am i gonna even try an adept?!?!? singularity alone doesnt trump more weapons, and a better skill set.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

@Shepard the Leper:

I don't like your idea because of the loss of auto warp bomb which is great crowd control. Actually that's what annoy me the most with ME3: another class can do it's own warp bomb AND have one of the game's best power on top of that.

[Shepard the Leper]

Jon Phoenix wrote...

Unfortunately Bioware is probably too proud of creating Nova for the Vanguard to realize that Nova would be a better complement power for the Adept and Biotic Grenade fits a lot better with the soldier/biotic hybrid Vanguard.

Since the adept is fragile, having a 360 degree crowd control power for when enemies get close would be great. Especially if it does damage to shields/barriers and armor allowing for use of their other biotics.

Alternatively something like force repulse from Force Unleashed would accomplish the same thing, though thats not altogether different from Nova anyway.

The switch is so simple (and elegant) that there is no way it happens.

While you do have a point, I don't agree with it. I think Nova fits the Vanguard quite nicely because it adds to their "high risk, high reward" playstyle. I didn't like the "just keep spamming Charge and you'll be near invincible" principle of ME2. The addition of a power that gives you an edge in CQC at the cost of losing your shield/barrier sounds really good and it can potentially improve the "high risk, high reward" principle. We''ll have to wait and see how it will work in-game though (it looks like you can easily abuse Nova by activating it before Charging: Charge an enemy and keep fighting > Charge is ready to be used again > still got some shield/barrier left? > Nova > Charge again to replenish shield/barrier > rinse and repeat).

I fail to see the point of giving the Adept a powerful CQC ability simply because the Adept isn't the designated CQC specialist. The only thing a power like Nova would add is a "oh crap" button when some dangerous enemy gets too close for comfort. A power such as Barrier would be at least equal, if not better, to give the Adept some breathing room and to get out of a tight spot. Remember that Nova requires a shield/barrier to be present to work and, at least in ME2, when your Adept still has his/her barrier up (s)he's relatively safe anyway. I only needed a power such as Barrier to save my Adept's butt when out in the open without shield/barrier (you cannot use Nova then). Vanguards won't have this problem because they can always use Charge to get their shield/barrier back in business.

I'm more concerned about the complete lack of something special for the ME3 Adept. Every class has one or more unique abilities - stuff you can only do playing those classes. The Adept has nothing like that, it's more or less the ME sewer for crappy powers that didn't work on other classes. "Hey, we've got this pisspoor power Shockwave. Let's give it to the Adept - should fit their other "meh" powers nicely."

[Shepard the Leper]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

@Shepard the Leper:

I don't like your idea because of the loss of auto warp bomb which is great crowd control. Actually that's what annoy me the most with ME3: another class can do it's own warp bomb AND have one of the game's best power on top of that.

Warp(bombs) have nothing to do with Crowd Control - it's pure damage. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind giving the Adept damage dealing powers, but their core business ought to be Crowd Control. My main gripe with the current version of the ME3 Adept is the complete lack of CC abilities (by that I mean CC beyond the level of the other classes).

Warp(bombs) are pretty nice, over-rated though. In ME2 anyone can use Warp explosions with the rigth squadmates, even Adepts need help to execute them quickly but they have more flexibility who to bring along. Besides, my "concept Adept" still has room for Warp - I wouldn't mind that at all; although I don't think I would use it a lot  Locking down the battlefield with powerful CC abilities is far more interesting imho, but I doubt anything of the sort will be possible in ME3 (maybe the Engineer can do it with drones and turrets, but the Adept surely not).

[TobyHasEyes]

 A matter of what you like for sure, but I personally find warp-bombs as the most satisfying part of playing as an Adept, and wouldn't enjoy a pure-crowd control Adept build

[Random citizen]

-Advanced Barrier (you know, like in Me1 and Jacobs power.
-Reverse field ( countering biotic effects, for example decreasing the mass in a biotic singularity so it collapses or stripping away or severely weakening enemy biotic barriers, etc, basically a "dispel" ability.
-marginally faster biotic cool down over other biotic classes

Modifié par Random citizen, 21 janvier 2012 - 01:42 .

[Shepard the Leper]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 A matter of what you like for sure, but I personally find warp-bombs as the most satisfying part of playing as an Adept, and wouldn't enjoy a pure-crowd control Adept build

So you're saying Warp(bombing) is the "unique" skill of the Adept? That's pretty poor considering every class can warpbomb all day long, and the ME2 Sentinel can already warpbomb more often than an Adept. Which is exactly my problem: What is the unique skill of the Adept? Why would anyone play the Adept class? Surely not to be able to setup your own warpbombs (something the ME3 Sentinel can do too and they have Tech Armor to boost).

What do you believe should be the trademark of the ME(3) Adept? Something you can only do when playing the Adept, i.e. something like ARush, Cloak, Charge, Turrets and Tech Armor. As it is the Adept has nothing of the sorts thus it is pointless to play the class unless you're a achievement junkie and simply want to get them all.

[Vapaa]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 A matter of what you like for sure, but I personally find warp-bombs as the most satisfying part of playing as an Adept, and wouldn't enjoy a pure-crowd control Adept build

Agreed, to me adept is not only crowd control but also damage dealing.

[TobyHasEyes]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 A matter of what you like for sure, but I personally find warp-bombs as the most satisfying part of playing as an Adept, and wouldn't enjoy a pure-crowd control Adept build

So you're saying Warp(bombing) is the "unique" skill of the Adept? That's pretty poor considering every class can warpbomb all day long, and the ME2 Sentinel can already warpbomb more often than an Adept. Which is exactly my problem: What is the unique skill of the Adept? Why would anyone play the Adept class? Surely not to be able to setup your own warpbombs (something the ME3 Sentinel can do too and they have Tech Armor to boost).

What do you believe should be the trademark of the ME(3) Adept? Something you can only do when playing the Adept, i.e. something like ARush, Cloak, Charge, Turrets and Tech Armor. As it is the Adept has nothing of the sorts thus it is pointless to play the class unless you're a achievement junkie and simply want to get them all.

 ME2 Sentinel has to use a squadmate to warp bomb, or a bonus power; it is not part of their key build

 I would argue that many of the incentives to play as any class are personal and can't be argued.. I like roleplaying as a biotic, but I think that Tech Armour looks goofy and I don't like the reliance on Charge of the Vanguard. I also like playing as an Adept as it fits the idea of being a purely biotic soldier; essentially it  fits the image of my Shepard better than other classes. Yet none of those are points I can argue with someone, but they are the biggest reasons that dictate class for me, and I am sure are similar to the reasons that dictate class for many people

Consequently I don't really care about having a 'trademark' of the ME3 Adept. I enjoy in ME2 stripping enemies of their protections, Pulling them out of cover, and then having them explode in a Warp bomb. That is what I enjoy, and if they keep that as much as possible in ME3, with any improvements being on top of that rather than instead of that (as having a singular CC focus would suggest) then they have done everything I would want

 (I also enjoy playing with just sidearms, I find that to better fit the idea in my mind of my Shepard as a biotic agent. So I am glad that in ME3 you can equip as few weapons as you want, with better power reloading times as a bonus. And yet you don't hear me complaining that other classes can do that if they want to)

[Shepard the Leper]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

I would argue that many of the incentives to play as any class are personal and can't be argued.. I like roleplaying as a biotic, but I think that Tech Armour looks goofy and I don't like the reliance on Charge of the Vanguard. I also like playing as an Adept as it fits the idea of being a purely biotic soldier; essentially it  fits the image of my Shepard better than other classes. Yet none of those are points I can argue with someone, but they are the biggest reasons that dictate class for me, and I am sure are similar to the reasons that dictate class for many people

Consequently I don't really care about having a 'trademark' of the ME3 Adept. I enjoy in ME2 stripping enemies of their protections, Pulling them out of cover, and then having them explode in a Warp bomb. That is what I enjoy, and if they keep that as much as possible in ME3, with any improvements being on top of that rather than instead of that (as having a singular CC focus would suggest) then they have done everything I would want

 (I also enjoy playing with just sidearms, I find that to better fit the idea in my mind of my Shepard as a biotic agent. So I am glad that in ME3 you can equip as few weapons as you want, with better power reloading times as a bonus. And yet you don't hear me complaining that other classes can do that if they want to)

That's a very poor argument. You can role-play any class the way you want to - heck, you can even role-play a "biotic specialist" with a Soldier who uses only a biotic bonus power. You can also play your version of the Adept with a Sentinel (shoot down defenses, pull, warpbomb). I seriously fail to see the point. Are you basing your class choice purely on the in-game description?

I select a different class because I want to play differently. Therefore I expect a game that uses a class system to give every class something unique (like the tradional Warrior, Mage, Rogue concept - playing a different class makes a different game). If they can't deliver than the whole class system is a complete failure and they'd be better off using an open system allowing anyone to select his/her own powers at will. So I can play the Adept as I see fit, just like you and anyone else.

[TobyHasEyes]

 That you call what I wrote a 'very poor argument' shows very clearly that you failed to understand what I was saying

 My argument was that the reasons people have for wanting to play as one class or another are not premises that can be used in an argument

 You argue that what is important to you is each class having a 'trademark'; a signature style of gameplay that cannot be founnd in any other class. You are welcome to hold that view, but it no more than a personal preference, it is not one I share

 Consequently I cannot engage in a debate with you where I try to establish what that 'trademark' is. It is like you stating that "A class is only worth playing if it has x" and then insisting I prove that this particular class has "x", when I never agreed to the first statement

 My choice of Adept is based on my enjoyment of biotic gameplay; the reason I pick Adept over a Vanguard/Sentinel build whilst only using a select few biotic abilities is partly based on the in-game description, and it is based partly on the label of 'biotic specialist' associated with Adept better fits my character

 And none of those are less valid than your view that for Adept to be worth playing it has to go CC or go home

[Shepard the Leper]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 That you call what I wrote a 'very poor argument' shows very clearly that you failed to understand what I was saying

 My argument was that the reasons people have for wanting to play as one class or another are not premises that can be used in an argument

 You argue that what is important to you is each class having a 'trademark'; a signature style of gameplay that cannot be founnd in any other class. You are welcome to hold that view, but it no more than a personal preference, it is not one I share

 Consequently I cannot engage in a debate with you where I try to establish what that 'trademark' is. It is like you stating that "A class is only worth playing if it has x" and then insisting I prove that this particular class has "x", when I never agreed to the first statement

 My choice of Adept is based on my enjoyment of biotic gameplay; the reason I pick Adept over a Vanguard/Sentinel build whilst only using a select few biotic abilities is partly based on the in-game description, and it is based partly on the label of 'biotic specialist' associated with Adept better fits my character

 And none of those are less valid than your view that for Adept to be worth playing it has to go CC or go home

No my point is simple. When you implement a class system it needs to have a purpose. Every game who has successfully done so has made all classes unique in their own way. I really liked what Bioware did with ME2 so playing an Adept was not the same thing as playing a Vanguard without Singularity but with a shotgun like it was in ME1. The ME2 Vanguard got Charge which gave the class an unique feel. Before the introduction of Stasis, the Adept was the best CC class in ME2 and playing the class effectively required a completely different playstyle (that's good design).

Your argumentation is build upon "role-playing". It has nothing to do with a class system. In TES games classes do not exist yet you can still (role)play whatever character you can think of - a battlemage, spellsword, stealthy assassin, 2H Thief or whatever. ME uses a pre-defined class system which, ideally, should result in different pros and cons for all classes. The ME3 Adept does not fit into this system because it doesn't have any pros - there is simply nothing to invite anyone to play as an Adept because you can pick other classes who can do the same plus more. That's a horrible design regardless ones personal opinion.

P.S. I called your argument poor because it's based on your personal preference. I'm talking about the Soldier being the master of combat; the Infiltrator being the master of stealth; the Engineer the master of distraction and sabotage; and the Adept is master of ... nothing really - they get to have crap powers the other classes don't need or want. That's, again, bad design. You cannot give 5 classes unique skills and 1 nothing. The only thing I'm asking for is to give the Adept something unique, something you cannot do with the other 5; something to make it worth your while to play the game with an Adept at least once - Charging around is enough to play the Vanguard (even if you never use any of its other abilities; how does the Adept compare to this in your opinion?

[Ahglock]

Vapaä wrote...

floppypig wrote...

Also, "overpower" would have a really long cooldown, maybe something like 45 seconds? And any biotic abilities you use in overpower mode, share its cooldown. For example: throw has a 5 second cooldown, overpower has a 45 second cooldown. But if throw is used in overpower mode, it has a 45 second cooldown.

45s cooldown ? and for any abilities used in OP ? no thanks !

I don't get what's the big deal with the biotic grenade (aside the fact that's more soldier-style), it adds a damage power to the adept, and it works differently since it's a grenade (no cooldown but resource-based) so you can vary playstyles.
I see a bright future for this grenade

The fact that it is more soldier style is what is the big deal.  If people want to player a sodlier/biotic hybrid the vanguard class is there for you.  If you want to play a pure biotic specialist the adept was supposed to be your class.  

[Ahglock]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

  You argue that what is important to you is each class having a 'trademark'; a signature style of gameplay that cannot be founnd in any other class. You are welcome to hold that view, but it no more than a personal preference, it is not one I share

 

The thing is he is right about this.  It is bad game design to give 5 of 6 classes something unique and special they bring to the table and then have one class that does nothing special.  Personal preference can always make someone like the 6th class just like someone might like their old 1980 buick skylark even though there are tons of better cars out there.   when designing something you should not just hope personal preferce saves your weak link class, you should try to fix the last class so it is a special unique snowflake as well.  

[dieredsparowes]

Two things: 

1) A few people have suggested the problem with the biotic grenade is its name. No. It's wrong as a power for the Adept. This flows into point 2.

2) Lots of posts about the uniqueness of the Adept and playstyle. Look, I get that favorite classes and how to play them are subjective. But look at the simple fact that the Adept does not have hands down the best biotic powers in the game. That is the problem. Period.

I won't run through every class, but it'd be hard to argue that ANY other class isn't the absolute best at what it does. At some point the subjectivity gives way to the strength of the abilities given to those classes.

So, my point is that even if you give the Adept a grenade that automatically wipes out the battlefield and is an automatic win button, it'd be fixing one problem (the Adept's relative ineffectiveness (key word here is relative)), rather than making the Adept's actual biotic powers the strongest set in the game. That's the real issue. Just do that.

If the Adept had the strongest biotic power set in the game, then any biotic grenades or whatever would be fine to add. But we are missing the point by arguing over the "fit" of a power or "uniqueness," when the core function of the class is the real issue.

Modifié par dieredsparowes, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:17 .

[MJvasNormandy]

Ahglock wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

  You argue that what is important to you is each class having a 'trademark'; a signature style of gameplay that cannot be founnd in any other class. You are welcome to hold that view, but it no more than a personal preference, it is not one I share

 

The thing is he is right about this.  It is bad game design to give 5 of 6 classes something unique and special they bring to the table and then have one class that does nothing special.  Personal preference can always make someone like the 6th class just like someone might like their old 1980 buick skylark even though there are tons of better cars out there.   when designing something you should not just hope personal preferce saves your weak link class, you should try to fix the last class so it is a special unique snowflake as well.  

Yup. I have a personal preferance for adepts but that doesn't mean I'm automatically okay with the biotic grenade (or better put, lack of a complimentary power). If each class doesn't have a 'signature style,' then they aren't really seperate classes.

The biotic grenade might end up being great for the adept class, but Bioware would really have to make it synergistic with the other powers. As of now, it sounds like a bonus power that could easily be as effective for any class. In fact, it might fit other classes better as it seems redundant for the adept.

It's like giving a class singularity, pull, lift orb, slam, etc.....they're very different powers in flavor, but contain too much overlap in function.  If someone made a Venn diagram of those powers, we might only see one poorly defined circle.

[Vapaa]

Ahglock wrote...

The fact that it is more soldier style is what is the big deal.  If people want to player a sodlier/biotic hybrid the vanguard class is there for you.  If you want to play a pure biotic specialist the adept was supposed to be your class.  

So the problem is purely aesthetics....I'm out

[Ahglock]

dieredsparowes wrote...


If the Adept had the strongest biotic power set in the game, then any biotic grenades or whatever would be fine to add. But we are missing the point by arguing over the "fit" of a power or "uniqueness," when the core function of the class is the real issue.

I don't think you are really disagreeing with the uniqueness crowd.  That is sort of the same thing they are saying, just differently.  The unique, special thing adepts are supposed to bring to the table is being the best biotic in the game and by a large margin.  They don't do that, in fact other class who are hybrids are basically just as strong bitoics and a squadmante might trump you with both singularity and stasis.  

[dieredsparowes]

I am also going to post a revamped suggestion, since my idea previously might have relied on erroneous information. Again, on the very rare chance a dev or someone cares about what I'm posting and read this:

The more I think about it, the more the real answer is to give the Adept Stasis AND upgrade, only slightly, the Adept's passive class ability. Giving the Adept Stasis and removing it as a bonus option would give it the best biotic powers in the game. That problem would be solved. Second, putting in even one evolution of the Adept passive such as

decrease recharge of biotics after biotic combo some percentage OR increase cooldown bonus from weapon weight (presumably something small like 5%).

Just one evolution like that to make sure that the Adept gets a slight "casting" advantage over all other classes, just like the Sentinel gets that advantage with alternating tech/biotic.

If that is taken seriously, there is the problem of Liara's missing Stasis. I understand that's not a small problem, and other classes like Stasis, but I think it's the better problem to have.

Edit: No idea what to do about the problem of a missing Stasis, but it's a step in the right direction, imo.

Modifié par dieredsparowes, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:48 .

[dreman9999]

Why complain about something that can be use tactically and be used without cooldown times?