155 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

Vapaä wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

The fact that it is more soldier style is what is the big deal.  If people want to player a sodlier/biotic hybrid the vanguard class is there for you.  If you want to play a pure biotic specialist the adept was supposed to be your class.  

So the problem is purely aesthetics....I'm out

Its almost like it is a role playing game where things being class appropriate matter.  

All the arguments are aesthetics since we can't argue effectiveness of something we have little information on.  What does this bring to the table that makes the Adepts a better biotic than Liara or a vanguard etc?   As far as I can tell it does nothing to reinforce the adept being a powerful biotic.  Stasis would, hell the same grenade but instead of having it be a grenade have it be an unstable biotic fragment that spawns out of your singularities shortening the singularities duration and at least it is biotic themed and it would do something to reinforce the adept being the best biotic in the field.  

[dreman9999]

Ahglock wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

floppypig wrote...

Also, "overpower" would have a really long cooldown, maybe something like 45 seconds? And any biotic abilities you use in overpower mode, share its cooldown. For example: throw has a 5 second cooldown, overpower has a 45 second cooldown. But if throw is used in overpower mode, it has a 45 second cooldown.

45s cooldown ? and for any abilities used in OP ? no thanks !

I don't get what's the big deal with the biotic grenade (aside the fact that's more soldier-style), it adds a damage power to the adept, and it works differently since it's a grenade (no cooldown but resource-based) so you can vary playstyles.
I see a bright future for this grenade

The fact that it is more soldier style is what is the big deal.  If people want to player a sodlier/biotic hybrid the vanguard class is there for you.  If you want to play a pure biotic specialist the adept was supposed to be your class.  

Wait a sec...Adepts arn't military soldiers? I thought with the armor , the gun and the military training and all...They are military solders with more powers then defence....Not space wizards.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:38 .

[Ahglock]

dieredsparowes wrote...

I am also going to post a revamped suggestion, since my idea previously might have relied on erroneous information. Again, on the very rare chance a dev or someone cares about what I'm posting and read this:

The more I think about it, the more the real answer is to give the Adept Stasis AND upgrade, only slightly, the Adept's passive class ability. Giving the Adept Stasis and removing it as a bonus option would give it the best biotic powers in the game. That problem would be solved. Second, putting in even one evolution of the Adept passive such as

decrease recharge of biotics after biotic combo some percentage OR increase cooldown bonus from weapon weight (presumably something small like 5%).

Just one evolution like that to make sure that the Adept gets a slight "casting" advantage over all other classes, just like the Sentinel gets that advantage with alternating tech/biotic.

If that is taken seriously, there is the problem of Liara's missing Stasis. I understand that's not a small problem, and other classes like Stasis, but I think it's the better problem to have. The simplest solution would be to give her the biotic grenade. If that doesn't work, what about:

Something like hack AI but that works on unprotected organics? I really apologize, but I honestly haven't looked enough at the powers to know if something like this exists. If so, I think it'd add a lot of versatility as a bonus power. It could make the enemies glow, and it'd certainly add to the "you don't need to fire your gun" appeal of biotics. I also realize there's about no chance this could even be done at this stage, but it's...something, hah.

The adpets class passive should curb stomp every other classes passive at increasing biotic power. But basically I agree with you on this.  And yeah AI hack on organics exists if you took morinth over samara it was called dominate.  You need to basically cap either paragon or renegade by the time you faced her to have the choice in the fight and then you had to choose her.  Technically you could choose her load a preivous save and then choose Samara and it would still be unlocked as a bonus power in your games.  

[dieredsparowes]

Ahglock wrote...

dieredsparowes wrote...


If the Adept had the strongest biotic power set in the game, then any biotic grenades or whatever would be fine to add. But we are missing the point by arguing over the "fit" of a power or "uniqueness," when the core function of the class is the real issue.

I don't think you are really disagreeing with the uniqueness crowd.  That is sort of the same thing they are saying, just differently.  The unique, special thing adepts are supposed to bring to the table is being the best biotic in the game and by a large margin.  They don't do that, in fact other class who are hybrids are basically just as strong bitoics and a squadmante might trump you with both singularity and stasis.  

Well, it is sort of the same, but different. As you said.

When someone says, "I don't like the granade because it doesn't fit into what I want the Adept to be," meaning that they want all unique biotic powers - well, that shifts the argument to aesthetics and all that. People instinctiely go, "geez, this is a shooter, it's a biotic grenade, no big deal."

Similarly, if someone says "I want the Adept to be unique," then people instinctively go to the subjectivity point. I don't care about how unique the Adept feels or cool he looks. He should have the best biotics in the game. To the point where that fact is basically indisputable. There is overlap there with "unique" for obvious reasons, but I still think it's entirely a different reasoning and conversation than what a lot of people in this thread are having.

Modifié par dieredsparowes, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:44 .

[AVPen]

dieredsparowes wrote...

Something like hack AI but that works on unprotected organics? I really apologize, but I honestly haven't looked enough at the powers to know if something like this exists. If so, I think it'd add a lot of versatility as a bonus power. It could make the enemies glow, and it'd certainly add to the "you don't need to fire your gun" appeal of biotics. I also realize there's about no chance this could even be done at this stage, but it's...something, hah.

You're talking about Dominate from ME2:
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Dominate 

[Ahglock]

dreman9999 wrote...


Wait a sec...Adepts arn't military soldiers? I thought with the armor , the gun and the military training and all...They are military solders with more powers then defence....Not space wizards.

Um yeah so.  How does that change that they divided the game into classes and some classes are hybrids and other are pure classes.  The adept was a pure biotic user so giving it powers that aren't biotic and instead are combat powers is not fitting.  I mean all classes can hack as a special forces buy why don't we all get combat drone then.  If you want to add combat power breadth to your adept that is what the bonus powers are for, the classes core powers should rieinforce the class concepts of a biotic.  

[Vapaa]

Ahglock wrote...

Um yeah so.  How does that change that they divided the game into classes and some classes are hybrids and other are pure classes.  The adept was a pure biotic user so giving it powers that aren't biotic and instead are combat powers is not fitting. 

Wut ? biotic grenades aren't biotic ?

[Ahglock]

dieredsparowes wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

dieredsparowes wrote...


If the Adept had the strongest biotic power set in the game, then any biotic grenades or whatever would be fine to add. But we are missing the point by arguing over the "fit" of a power or "uniqueness," when the core function of the class is the real issue.

I don't think you are really disagreeing with the uniqueness crowd.  That is sort of the same thing they are saying, just differently.  The unique, special thing adepts are supposed to bring to the table is being the best biotic in the game and by a large margin.  They don't do that, in fact other class who are hybrids are basically just as strong bitoics and a squadmante might trump you with both singularity and stasis.  

Well, it is sort of the same, but different. As you said.

When someone says, "I don't like the granade because it doesn't fit into what I want the Adept to be," meaning that they want all unique biotic powers - well, that shifts the argument to aesthetics and all that. People instinctiely go, "geez, this is a shooter, it's a biotic grenade, no big deal."

Similarly, if someone says "I want the Adept to be unique," then people instinctively go to the subjectivity point. I don't care about how unique the Adept feels or cool he looks. He should have the best biotics in the game. To the point where that fact is basically indisputable. There is overlap there with "unique" for obvious reasons, but I still think it's entirely a different reasoning and conversation than what a lot of people in this thread are having.

Meh I see it more as there are 2 arguemnts going on in this thread.  One is purely about biotic grenade and given how little we know about it all we can argue about is aethetics.  The other is on the adept in general and while that is saying things like bring something unique to the table is more referencing the fact that adepts don't really feel like the best biotic when they should.   Things like amping up the adepts passive so its biotics hit harder, lasted longer and recharged much faster than any other class would help in this regard.  I do think stasis as being the sole defense bypassing biotic power should be on the adepts core list before biotic grenade but I can;t have everything.  

[Ahglock]

Vapaä wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Um yeah so.  How does that change that they divided the game into classes and some classes are hybrids and other are pure classes.  The adept was a pure biotic user so giving it powers that aren't biotic and instead are combat powers is not fitting. 

Wut ? biotic grenades aren't biotic ?

No more than giving the soldier pull that was a biotic power but they slap the title combat pull makes it a combat power.  It is a physical grenade that has mass effect field effects in the area, there is nothing biotic about it but the name.  I may be wrong, maybe it isn't a grenade at all and the adept is charging up random pieces of metal with biotic energy and throwing them with explosive force like gambit, but I highly doubt it.  

[dreman9999]

Ahglock wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


Wait a sec...Adepts arn't military soldiers? I thought with the armor , the gun and the military training and all...They are military solders with more powers then defence....Not space wizards.

Um yeah so.  How does that change that they divided the game into classes and some classes are hybrids and other are pure classes.  The adept was a pure biotic user so giving it powers that aren't biotic and instead are combat powers is not fitting.  I mean all classes can hack as a special forces buy why don't we all get combat drone then.  If you want to add combat power breadth to your adept that is what the bonus powers are for, the classes core powers should rieinforce the class concepts of a biotic.  

*Start up ME2.
*Selects Adept character.
*put her to battle and equips her sniper rifle.

.........
Nope, not purly biotic usersare they?
They're not space wizards, the just have the most  boost for biotic powers. They can use other things from othe classes if you want to.
I  understand this and I barly shoot her gun at things in combat.(Ymir mech is a must to shoot at. with her.)
Biotics arn't restricted from other forms of combat, they are just not the best at them.
Just because a soldier is better at shooting thing then an Adept, it doen't mean the Adept can't shoot things, too.
Heck, most of the time in ME1 the only way to kill any one after lift/throw/singularity them was with shooting them in the air and blowing them up with grenades.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:59 .

[Vapaa]

Ahglock wrote...
No more than giving the soldier pull that was a biotic power but they slap the title combat pull makes it a combat power.  

Combat pull ? where ?

Ahglock wrote...
It is a physical grenade that has mass effect field effects in the area, there is nothing biotic about it but the name. 

So something does biotic stuff and it has nothing biotic about it but the name ?
It's a grenade that do biotic detonations, no matter if it's a grenade, a strawberry or a mini-nuke, the fact is: it's biotic.

[dieredsparowes]

Ahglock wrote...

dieredsparowes wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

dieredsparowes wrote...


If the Adept had the strongest biotic power set in the game, then any biotic grenades or whatever would be fine to add. But we are missing the point by arguing over the "fit" of a power or "uniqueness," when the core function of the class is the real issue.

I don't think you are really disagreeing with the uniqueness crowd.  That is sort of the same thing they are saying, just differently.  The unique, special thing adepts are supposed to bring to the table is being the best biotic in the game and by a large margin.  They don't do that, in fact other class who are hybrids are basically just as strong bitoics and a squadmante might trump you with both singularity and stasis.  

Well, it is sort of the same, but different. As you said.

When someone says, "I don't like the granade because it doesn't fit into what I want the Adept to be," meaning that they want all unique biotic powers - well, that shifts the argument to aesthetics and all that. People instinctiely go, "geez, this is a shooter, it's a biotic grenade, no big deal."

Similarly, if someone says "I want the Adept to be unique," then people instinctively go to the subjectivity point. I don't care about how unique the Adept feels or cool he looks. He should have the best biotics in the game. To the point where that fact is basically indisputable. There is overlap there with "unique" for obvious reasons, but I still think it's entirely a different reasoning and conversation than what a lot of people in this thread are having.

Meh I see it more as there are 2 arguemnts going on in this thread.  One is purely about biotic grenade and given how little we know about it all we can argue about is aethetics.  The other is on the adept in general and while that is saying things like bring something unique to the table is more referencing the fact that adepts don't really feel like the best biotic when they should.   Things like amping up the adepts passive so its biotics hit harder, lasted longer and recharged much faster than any other class would help in this regard.  I do think stasis as being the sole defense bypassing biotic power should be on the adepts core list before biotic grenade but I can;t have everything.  

Well, let me put it this way, and I'm saying this for simplification's sake (including my own):

The devs/community should be concerned with this one question re: the Adept - is it hands down the best biotic user in the game?

That's it. Then, if anyone is talking about grenades or their aesthetics, they can see how misguided that conversation is. Just make sure the answer to the above question is a resounding "yes." End of story.

As for stasis, the irony is that I'd rather they keep it as a bonus power because my main Shep is a Vanguard. So, for my sake, I hope you don't get stasis But I am arguing for it to be on the Adept because I just think it makes too much sense not to.

[Ahglock]

dreman9999 wrote...


*Start up ME2.
*Selects Adept character.
*put her to battle and equips her sniper rifle.

.........
Nope, not purly biotic usersare they?
They're not space wizards, the just have the most  boost for biotic powers. They can use other things from othe classes if you want to.
I  understand this and I barly shoot her gun at things in combat.(Ymir mech is a must to shoot at. with her.)
Biotics arn't restricted from other forms of combat, they are just not the best at them.
Just because a soldier is better at shooting thing then an Adept, it doen't mean the Adept can't shoot things, too.
Heck, most of the time in ME1 the only way to kill any one after lift/throw/singularity them was with shooting them in the air and blowing them up with grenades.

Yeah and you are missing the point entirely.  The classes get these things they have labeled as powers.  These powers are in short suppply and speciifc to each class.  Guns on the other hand are not(though even then they are somewhat limited by weight or whatever in ME3).  So the short supply powers that are specific to each class should reinforce the classes core concepts.  And whether the adept is a trained soldier or not, the core concept of the adept that make him different than say the vanguard is that he is foccussed on bitoics.  Vanguards are focussed on biotics and combat skills, the adept just on bitoics while he has basic soldier combat skills they are not a focus of the class.  So that limited list of powers that the adpet gets handed should reinforce the differences between the vanguard and the adpet not blend them together even further.  

[Random citizen]

Ahglock wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


Wait a sec...Adepts arn't military soldiers? I thought with the armor , the gun and the military training and all...They are military solders with more powers then defence....Not space wizards.

Um yeah so.  How does that change that they divided the game into classes and some classes are hybrids and other are pure classes.  The adept was a pure biotic user so giving it powers that aren't biotic and instead are combat powers is not fitting.  I mean all classes can hack as a special forces buy why don't we all get combat drone then.  If you want to add combat power breadth to your adept that is what the bonus powers are for, the classes core powers should rieinforce the class concepts of a biotic.  

Its a result of forced balancing when characters of different abilities are squeezed into one type of challenge and gameplay. But Adepts are not "pure biotics" just just as a jedi does not exclusively "casters" Biotics are just characters with "superpowers". There is no reason besides the previously mentioned balancing why they cant do everything an ordinary soldier does as long as it is not abilities that is given by implants the person in question lacks. 

Modifié par Random citizen, 21 janvier 2012 - 05:09 .

[Ahglock]

dieredsparowes wrote...


Well, let me put it this way, and I'm saying this for simplification's sake (including my own):

The devs/community should be concerned with this one question re: the Adept - is it hands down the best biotic user in the game?

That's it. Then, if anyone is talking about grenades or their aesthetics, they can see how misguided that conversation is. Just make sure the answer to the above question is a resounding "yes." End of story.

As for stasis, the irony is that I'd rather they keep it as a bonus power because my main Shep is a Vanguard. So, for my sake, I hope you don't get stasis But I am arguing for it to be on the Adept because I just think it makes too much sense not to.

No argument from me, that should be what the devs are asking in regards to the adept.  Sadly the answer is no as of now.  

[dreman9999]

Ahglock wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


*Start up ME2.
*Selects Adept character.
*put her to battle and equips her sniper rifle.

.........
Nope, not purly biotic usersare they?
They're not space wizards, the just have the most  boost for biotic powers. They can use other things from othe classes if you want to.
I  understand this and I barly shoot her gun at things in combat.(Ymir mech is a must to shoot at. with her.)
Biotics arn't restricted from other forms of combat, they are just not the best at them.
Just because a soldier is better at shooting thing then an Adept, it doen't mean the Adept can't shoot things, too.
Heck, most of the time in ME1 the only way to kill any one after lift/throw/singularity them was with shooting them in the air and blowing them up with grenades.

Yeah and you are missing the point entirely.  The classes get these things they have labeled as powers.  These powers are in short suppply and speciifc to each class.  Guns on the other hand are not(though even then they are somewhat limited by weight or whatever in ME3).  So the short supply powers that are specific to each class should reinforce the classes core concepts.  And whether the adept is a trained soldier or not, the core concept of the adept that make him different than say the vanguard is that he is foccussed on bitoics.  Vanguards are focussed on biotics and combat skills, the adept just on bitoics while he has basic soldier combat skills they are not a focus of the class.  So that limited list of powers that the adpet gets handed should reinforce the differences between the vanguard and the adpet not blend them together even further.  

The thing your missing is the fact that adept can use other power types. That's my point. They are not space wizards.
Heck, an adept in ME2 is the best class to use warp ammo.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 janvier 2012 - 05:49 .

[Random citizen]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


*Start up ME2.
*Selects Adept character.
*put her to battle and equips her sniper rifle.

.........
Nope, not purly biotic usersare they?
They're not space wizards, the just have the most  boost for biotic powers. They can use other things from othe classes if you want to.
I  understand this and I barly shoot her gun at things in combat.(Ymir mech is a must to shoot at. with her.)
Biotics arn't restricted from other forms of combat, they are just not the best at them.
Just because a soldier is better at shooting thing then an Adept, it doen't mean the Adept can't shoot things, too.
Heck, most of the time in ME1 the only way to kill any one after lift/throw/singularity them was with shooting them in the air and blowing them up with grenades.

Yeah and you are missing the point entirely.  The classes get these things they have labeled as powers.  These powers are in short suppply and speciifc to each class.  Guns on the other hand are not(though even then they are somewhat limited by weight or whatever in ME3).  So the short supply powers that are specific to each class should reinforce the classes core concepts.  And whether the adept is a trained soldier or not, the core concept of the adept that make him different than say the vanguard is that he is foccussed on bitoics.  Vanguards are focussed on biotics and combat skills, the adept just on bitoics while he has basic soldier combat skills they are not a focus of the class.  So that limited list of powers that the adpet gets handed should reinforce the differences between the vanguard and the adpet not blend them together even further.  

The thing your missing is the fact that adept can use other power types. That's my point. They are not space wizards.
Heck, an adept in ME2 is the best class to use warp ammo.

What they are, however, is specialised in biotics. They might not have trained as much as non-biotics with fighting without relying on their biotics.

[implodinggoat]

Ahglock wrote...

No more than giving the soldier pull that was a biotic power but they slap the title combat pull makes it a combat power.  It is a physical grenade that has mass effect field effects in the area, there is nothing biotic about it but the name.

I believe what you're thinking of is the Sentinel's "Lift Grenade".

To my knowledge the Soldier class doesn't have anything like what you're describing.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 21 janvier 2012 - 06:15 .

[Ahglock]

dreman9999 wrote...


The thing your missing is the fact that adept can use other power types. That's my point. They are not space wizards.
Heck, an adept in ME2 is the best class to use warp ammo.

No I am not missing it.  That is the purpose of the bonus power.  Your core power should reinforce your core concept not dilute it.  The core concept of the adept class is a biotic specialist, while they are trained in combat it is not their core class concept.  The people who emphasize both combat and biotics are called vanguards.  The adepts powers should strengthen the differences between the adept and vanguard not lessen them.  

implodinggoat wrote...

I believe what you're thinking of is the Sentinel's "Lift Grenade".

To my knowledge the Soldier class doesn't have anything like what you're describing.

I know they don't, I guess I was not clear sorry about that.  I was making an illustration.  If you gave the solder the power pull, not a lift grenade but an actually biotic power that pulled poeple and slapped a descriptive name like combat pull on it it wold not make it a combat power any more than slapping a desriptive name on a grenade makes biotic grenade a biotic power.  Biotics aren't just mass effect fields, they are specifically mass effect fields generated and controlled by an organic from their own body.

Dear God I'd love to have a spell check.  Even without my dislexia I'm a typo king.  And I can never seem to get the formatting right if I copy and paste it to and from word.  

Modifié par Ahglock, 21 janvier 2012 - 06:25 .

[Shepard the Leper]

Vapaä wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Um yeah so.  How does that change that they divided the game into classes and some classes are hybrids and other are pure classes.  The adept was a pure biotic user so giving it powers that aren't biotic and instead are combat powers is not fitting. 

Wut ? biotic grenades aren't biotic ?

No they aren't and if you'd paid the slightest attention playing both games you should have known. Why the heck do you think Kaidan had a troublesome youth; the Asari have to train for years to control their biotics; and Jack was put into detention for the lulz by Cerberus ...

One has to have the "gift", train for years, and using those powers is extremely exhausting. But wait, we can easily equip any goon with a grenade to achieve similar effects ... wow, do I feel special playing a biotic specialist

Ahglock wrote...

If you gave the solder the power pull, not a lift grenade but an actually biotic power that pulled poeple and slapped a descriptive name like combat pull on it it wold not make it a combat power any more than slapping a desriptive name on a grenade makes biotic grenade a biotic power.  Biotics aren't just mass effect fields, they are specifically mass effect fields generated and controlled by an organic from their own body.

This human understands

[Vapaa]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

No they aren't and if you'd paid the slightest attention playing both games you should have known. Why the heck do you think Kaidan had a troublesome youth; the Asari have to train for years to control their biotics; and Jack was put into detention for the lulz by Cerberus ...

You know, there's so many weird stuff going on in this ME universe, that I'm not going to try finding logic in anything.....but that doesn't chage the simple fact: does biotic stuff -> biotic power, period.

This also serves gameplay, so I find it great.

[implodinggoat]

Ahglock wrote...

Dear God I'd love to have a spell check.  Even without my dislexia I'm a typo king.

Case in point, its spelled dyslexia.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 21 janvier 2012 - 06:33 .

[MJvasNormandy]

implodinggoat wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Dear God I'd love to have a spell check.  Even without my dislexia I'm a typo king.

Case in point, its spelled dyslexia.

Actually, ist dsylxeia. I should knwo, runs in the famliy.

[The Spamming Troll]

adepts are going to be be like engineers in ME1.

nobody plays them.