155 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

 One point I think we don't have enough information about is that Bioware mentioned that there would be MORE biotic combination effects like Warpbomb.

So, until we know exactly what those combos ARE and DO, it's too early to tell how good or bad the adept is IMO.

[dieredsparowes]

Jon Phoenix wrote...

Further to my previous post let's use our imagination for a bit.

Imagine you know nothing about the new powers in ME3 but the team has come up with two new powers and are in the process of adding those powers to classes.

One power is "Nova" (does what we all know it does) and the other is a "Biotic Grenade". The Adept and the Vanguard both need one of those powers, which do you give to which?

The answer from most of you should be clear, the majority of people will give the Adept "Nova" and the Vanguard "Biotic Grenade" because those fit with their character archetype (we'll come back to gameplay archetypes later), pure biotic and combat biotic respectively best. Now if Overpower had never been on the cards I think that would be how everything shakes out.

Now unfortunately BW tied their hands a little by releasing the info early (voluntarily and involuntarily) meaning that a switch is now all but impossible. The end result the Vanguard has two of the most iconic powers in the game and the adept has none, being that Singularity is now no longer a unique power and biotic grenade seems somewhat lackluster (lore wise anyway).

For those arguing that Nova fits the Vanguard play style, I see where you are coming from, but to me it reeks of repetitive chaining of the same powers. It seems to me that the Vanguard will do the following over and over again. Charge, Nova, Shotgun, Charge (recharge shield), Nova, Shotgun...repeat ad nauseum. Do you really want that? I'm sure some of you do, but to me that is the definition of dull.

I think the better option for the Vanguard is to have Charge key off the Heavy Melee attack. The Vanguard (and to a lesser extent the infiltrator) are the only classes that can actively pursue using their Heavy Melee. For every other class it is really a last resort option at best when the enemy gets too close. The Vanguard automatically closes to H2H range using charge and the infiltrator could cloak and move in order to execute their heavy melee attack. So for the Vanguard the heavy melee and Nova provide a lot of overlap, sure I get that Nova affects more dudes, but they still overlap.

Because their is so much overlap between the Heavy Melee and Nova I think that shipping Nova to the Adept would the best idea, giving Biotic Grenade to the Vanguard gives them something they don't already have a mid ranged AOE (allowing for the addition of a different style of gameplay, rather than adding an extra layer to an already existing play style). For the Adept Nova really represents a short ranged non targeted warp blast (the animation might have needed to be changed but the general feeling of the power would still fit with the concept of the Adept).

I do feel that the Adept has been a bit hard done by in the unique department which a feel is a shame. Singularity is still an awesome power and Warp bombs are still awesome, but adding Biotic Grenades smacks of desperation for an idea when Overpower didn't work out. I didn't really like the concept of Overpower so not sad to see it go, but would have liked a more fitting replacement. I would have even been happy with Dominate as a class skill since I loved using that with my Adept.

A terrific post, though I disagree re: Nova, which is obvious from my first post in this thread.

While I see Nova creating an opportunity to spam the same sequence over and over on lower difficulties, I don't think it will be an issue on higher levels. I believe health doesn't regen now (I think), that itself would be reason enough to dissaude that kind of repeated, reckless play. You would be penalized for expending shields and taking any damage, and you'd die if you did it repeatedly. Moreover, I don't think that playstyle will work unless it is strategically used in locations where enemies won't be taking shots when you expend your shield for Nova (meaning, outside of its radius and with a clear line of sight on Shep). Of course, I could be wrong since I haven't seen the game. I am just picturing it, and I really see Nova as something that I will be using when the situation allows it, which is perfect.

If the Adept had Nova, it'd be mainly a last resort power. They should be able to lock down a battlefield (which, again, is why i think Stasis should be theirs, but whatever). Nova wouldn't really contribute to that end and would actually be antithetical to that concept. What I think is worth pointing out is that I think the Vanguard is a better fit for Nova and the biotic grenade. I wouldn't say either sound great for an Adept, and I don't think throwing one on because the class has been poorly realized is a good solution.

Also, it's worth noting that I believe the Adept's melee acts similar to Nova and can knock back multiple enemies. The Vanguard's melee doesn't. Not sure how effective the Adept's melee is, but it might render some of the "oh crap" usefulness of unleashing Nova when up close redundant.

Modifié par dieredsparowes, 22 janvier 2012 - 04:54 .

[dreman9999]

Jon Phoenix wrote...

Further to my previous post let's use our imagination for a bit.

Imagine you know nothing about the new powers in ME3 but the team has come up with two new powers and are in the process of adding those powers to classes.

One power is "Nova" (does what we all know it does) and the other is a "Biotic Grenade". The Adept and the Vanguard both need one of those powers, which do you give to which?

The answer from most of you should be clear, the majority of people will give the Adept "Nova" and the Vanguard "Biotic Grenade" because those fit with their character archetype (we'll come back to gameplay archetypes later), pure biotic and combat biotic respectively best. Now if Overpower had never been on the cards I think that would be how everything shakes out.

Now unfortunately BW tied their hands a little by releasing the info early (voluntarily and involuntarily) meaning that a switch is now all but impossible. The end result the Vanguard has two of the most iconic powers in the game and the adept has none, being that Singularity is now no longer a unique power and biotic grenade seems somewhat lackluster (lore wise anyway).

For those arguing that Nova fits the Vanguard play style, I see where you are coming from, but to me it reeks of repetitive chaining of the same powers. It seems to me that the Vanguard will do the following over and over again. Charge, Nova, Shotgun, Charge (recharge shield), Nova, Shotgun...repeat ad nauseum. Do you really want that? I'm sure some of you do, but to me that is the definition of dull.

I think the better option for the Vanguard is to have Charge key off the Heavy Melee attack. The Vanguard (and to a lesser extent the infiltrator) are the only classes that can actively pursue using their Heavy Melee. For every other class it is really a last resort option at best when the enemy gets too close. The Vanguard automatically closes to H2H range using charge and the infiltrator could cloak and move in order to execute their heavy melee attack. So for the Vanguard the heavy melee and Nova provide a lot of overlap, sure I get that Nova affects more dudes, but they still overlap.

Because their is so much overlap between the Heavy Melee and Nova I think that shipping Nova to the Adept would the best idea, giving Biotic Grenade to the Vanguard gives them something they don't already have a mid ranged AOE (allowing for the addition of a different style of gameplay, rather than adding an extra layer to an already existing play style). For the Adept Nova really represents a short ranged non targeted warp blast (the animation might have needed to be changed but the general feeling of the power would still fit with the concept of the Adept).

I do feel that the Adept has been a bit hard done by in the unique department which a feel is a shame. Singularity is still an awesome power and Warp bombs are still awesome, but adding Biotic Grenades smacks of desperation for an idea when Overpower didn't work out. I didn't really like the concept of Overpower so not sad to see it go, but would have liked a more fitting replacement. I would have even been happy with Dominate as a class skill since I loved using that with my Adept.

I would never give nova to an adept. Adept close equals bad. and Nova is a close range power that leaves you with out shields.

[implodinggoat]

Bleachrude wrote...

 One point I think we don't have enough information about is that Bioware mentioned that there would be MORE biotic combination effects like Warpbomb.

So, until we know exactly what those combos ARE and DO, it's too early to tell how good or bad the adept is IMO.

That's a very good point.   It would be nice if they'd throw out a little more info on some of the new combos.

[dreman9999]

dieredsparowes wrote...

Jon Phoenix wrote...

Further to my previous post let's use our imagination for a bit.

Imagine you know nothing about the new powers in ME3 but the team has come up with two new powers and are in the process of adding those powers to classes.

One power is "Nova" (does what we all know it does) and the other is a "Biotic Grenade". The Adept and the Vanguard both need one of those powers, which do you give to which?

The answer from most of you should be clear, the majority of people will give the Adept "Nova" and the Vanguard "Biotic Grenade" because those fit with their character archetype (we'll come back to gameplay archetypes later), pure biotic and combat biotic respectively best. Now if Overpower had never been on the cards I think that would be how everything shakes out.

Now unfortunately BW tied their hands a little by releasing the info early (voluntarily and involuntarily) meaning that a switch is now all but impossible. The end result the Vanguard has two of the most iconic powers in the game and the adept has none, being that Singularity is now no longer a unique power and biotic grenade seems somewhat lackluster (lore wise anyway).

For those arguing that Nova fits the Vanguard play style, I see where you are coming from, but to me it reeks of repetitive chaining of the same powers. It seems to me that the Vanguard will do the following over and over again. Charge, Nova, Shotgun, Charge (recharge shield), Nova, Shotgun...repeat ad nauseum. Do you really want that? I'm sure some of you do, but to me that is the definition of dull.

I think the better option for the Vanguard is to have Charge key off the Heavy Melee attack. The Vanguard (and to a lesser extent the infiltrator) are the only classes that can actively pursue using their Heavy Melee. For every other class it is really a last resort option at best when the enemy gets too close. The Vanguard automatically closes to H2H range using charge and the infiltrator could cloak and move in order to execute their heavy melee attack. So for the Vanguard the heavy melee and Nova provide a lot of overlap, sure I get that Nova affects more dudes, but they still overlap.

Because their is so much overlap between the Heavy Melee and Nova I think that shipping Nova to the Adept would the best idea, giving Biotic Grenade to the Vanguard gives them something they don't already have a mid ranged AOE (allowing for the addition of a different style of gameplay, rather than adding an extra layer to an already existing play style). For the Adept Nova really represents a short ranged non targeted warp blast (the animation might have needed to be changed but the general feeling of the power would still fit with the concept of the Adept).

I do feel that the Adept has been a bit hard done by in the unique department which a feel is a shame. Singularity is still an awesome power and Warp bombs are still awesome, but adding Biotic Grenades smacks of desperation for an idea when Overpower didn't work out. I didn't really like the concept of Overpower so not sad to see it go, but would have liked a more fitting replacement. I would have even been happy with Dominate as a class skill since I loved using that with my Adept.

A terrific post, though I disagree re: Nova, which is obvious from my first post in this thread.

While I see Nova creating an opportunity to spam the same sequence over and over on lower difficulties, I don't think it will be an issue on higher levels. I believe health doesn't regen now (I think), that itself would be reason enough to dissaude that kind of repeated, reckless play. You would be penalized for expending shields and taking any damage, and you'd die if you did it repeatedly. Moreover, I don't think that playstyle will work unless it is strategically used in locations where enemies won't be taking shots when you expend your shield for Nova (meaning, outside of its radius and with a clear line of sight on Shep). Of course, I could be wrong since I haven't seen the game. I am just picturing it, and I really see Nova as something that I will be using when the situation allows it, which is perfect.

If the Adept had Nova, it'd be mainly a last resort power. They should be able to lock down a battlefield (which, again, is why i think Stasis should be theirs, but whatever). Nova wouldn't really contribute to that end and would actually be antithetical to that concept. What I think is worth pointing out is that I think the Vanguard is a better fit for Nova and the biotic grenade. I wouldn't say either sound great for an Adept, and I don't think throwing one on because the class has been poorly realized is a good solution.

Also, it's worth noting that I believe the Adept's melee acts similar to Nova and can knock back multiple enemies. The Vanguard's melee doesn't. Not sure how effective the Adept's melee is, but it might render some of the "oh crap" usefulness of unleashing Nova when up close redundant.

Last resort....No. The way the class is stated tobe built, you won't need a last resort power. Singularity isas much asa close ranged poweras it is mid to far range.

[implodinggoat]

dreman9999 wrote...

I would never give nova to an adept. Adept close equals bad. and Nova is a close range power that leaves you with out shields.

That's a good point, and it gave me an idea.  What about a class power that helps keep enemies away from you?

Something like the Glyph spells in Dragon Age or the Rune Spells in Skyrim.  You cast it on the ground in front of you and if an enemy walks into it....Bam!

It could act as a defensive barricade to keep enemies from getting close and it would let you set up traps.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 22 janvier 2012 - 05:57 .

[floppypig]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Personally, If I could create a new biotic power for the Adept, I'll add:
Overpower:
-Rank 1: +x% biotic damage, +x% newton to physics effect.
-Rank 2: -x% biotic cooldown, +x% biotic duration.
-Rank 3: longer Overpower.
-Rank 4: first biotic used explode on impact or first biotic used cause no cooldown.
-Rank 5: Overpower reset biotics cooldown or longer Overpower.
-Rank 6: Biotic powers ignore protections for physics effects or Biotics powers cause no global cooldown. (ME1 feeling again ^^)

Base duration would probably be about 10 seconds, cooldown would be about 60-90 seconds (should not be used more than once per battle), and of course it would have no global cooldown.

This idea can rightfully be used by Bioware.

Haha that's pretty much the same idea I had a few pages back in this thread (albeit with a few differences) I like yours better though.

I agree with you, I think this would be the perfect second class ability for the adept. BIOWARE, HERE, LOOK OVER HERE!!!!!

[implodinggoat]

floppypig wrote...

I agree with you, I think this would be the perfect second class ability for the adept. BIOWARE, HERE, LOOK OVER HERE!!!!!

I think he was being a little sarcastic with that post.

An ability called "Overpower" that worked pretty much like what he described was going to be the second class power for the Adept before the Biotic Grenade.

But the devs said that in play testing they couldn't get it working the way they wanted it to which is a pity since it sounded pretty rad.

[floppypig]

implodinggoat wrote...

floppypig wrote...

I agree with you, I think this would be the perfect second class ability for the adept. BIOWARE, HERE, LOOK OVER HERE!!!!!

I think he was being a little sarcastic with that post.

An ability called "Overpower" that worked pretty much like what he described was going to be the second class power for the Adept before the Biotic Grenade.

But the devs said that in play testing they couldn't get it working the way they wanted it to which is a pity since it sounded pretty rad.

U mean I was being sarcastic? Haha I wasn't really. I really do think your idea would work. Also, I thought that Bioware's Overpower was just going to lower the cooldown rates of all your biotic powers?

EDIT: oh wait, sorry, now i get what u mean by who was being sarcastic lol. I thought you were the guy who posted that idea

Modifié par floppypig, 22 janvier 2012 - 06:14 .

[dieredsparowes]

dreman9999 wrote...


Last resort....No. The way the class is stated tobe built, you won't need a last resort power. Singularity isas much asa close ranged poweras it is mid to far range.

Singularity would not have the same utility up close as Nova. And any close-ranged effictiveness that Singularity does possess in no way addresses what I said about Nova's fit on an Adept or Vanguard.

[AVPen]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Personally, If I could create a new biotic power for the Adept, I'll add:
Overpower:
-Rank 1: +x% biotic damage, +x% newton to physics effect.
-Rank 2: -x% biotic cooldown, +x% biotic duration.
-Rank 3: longer Overpower.
-Rank 4: first biotic used explode on impact or first biotic used cause no cooldown.
-Rank 5: Overpower reset biotics cooldown or longer Overpower.
-Rank 6: Biotic powers ignore protections for physics effects or Biotics powers cause no global cooldown. (ME1 feeling again ^^)

Base duration would probably be about 10 seconds, cooldown would be about 60-90 seconds (should not be used more than once per battle), and of course it would have no global cooldown.

This idea can rightfully be used by Bioware.

For those interested or remotely curious, here are the evolution ranks for Overpower as the power appeared in the leaks:


Overpower   (For a short duration, you enter a heightened biotic state, enabling you to launch multiple powers.)
2nd Rank
Recharge   Increases the recharge speed of Overpower by x% 

3rd Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.

4th Rank
Power Duration   While under the effects of Overpower, the duration of your powers is increased by x%.
OR
Damage/Force   Increases the damage and force of powers cast during Overpower by x%.

5th Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.
OR
First Strike   The first power cast during Overpower causes no global cooldown.

6th Rank
Time Slow   Increases the amount the world is slowed by x%.
OR
Detonation   Biotic detonations do x% more damage and force and increase Overpower's duration by x seconds.

Modifié par AVPen, 22 janvier 2012 - 06:57 .

[Darkstar Aurora]

In terms of the "biotic grenade" issue, I will restate what I suggested in another thread
http://social.biowar...3/index/9040578

I understand the gameplay design behind a powerful ability that is limited in use and requires a replenished resource. It is a staple of RPGs going back to the original Dungeon's & Dragons and costly spell components.
I think what has bothered many people who have heard about them is that a biotic grenade does not "fit" well with the lore (biotics are organic in nature) and they do not like the idea of the sci-fi mage-archetype having more combat oriented power. So rather than suggesting the team go back to square one in the eleventh hour, why not simply change the semantics?


Why do the new Adept and Sentinel powers need to be called a "grenade" at all? Why couldnt it just be a limited-use biotic power that consumes replenishable materials with each use at the same rate that other classes?
We know from the codex that biotics normally require massive doses of vitamin B12 and other energy supplements after combat. We also know that biotic amplifiers can consume excess electrical energy from tech to boost biotic performance (Sentinel's Power Armor to boost biotic damage, Energy Drain boosting passive barrier, Jack's biotic amp upgraded to a multi-power core for more impact damage).


So everytime we pick up a replenishment of grenades on a mission the biotic classes could just as easily pick up or minifacture a disposable power cell boost for their amp or some stimulants administered via their hardsuit. Since Biotic Mastery or Fitness (I believe) govern "grenade capacity" they could also just as easily measure how many times a biotic's body could potentially utilize medical stimulants or power cells in a give mission before causing long-term harm.
If ME1 had generic upgrade containers that held potentially anything, and if ME2 power cells could somehow also replenish my normal weapon heat sinks along with heavy weapon a mo, then they easily could have the "grenade replenishment" spots on maps also contain whatever the adept/sentinel/etc might need to go into a biotic overdrive. Meanwhile the only gameplay "change" that would be necessary would be to rename the ability, change the icon, and use a general biotic mnemonic-gesture animation with some extra dark energy aura flashiness.
It would make more sense if it was a cut-scene style biotic attack (Jack versus a quad of YMIR Mechs), heavy on power but not as easily replicated as your normal combat manuevers. The notion of "powerful magic" in RPGs requiring costly components is not a new concept, and having it be a biotic attack instead of biotics-via-grenade might be more acceptable to people in terms of lore.

[floppypig]

AVPen wrote...

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Personally, If I could create a new biotic power for the Adept, I'll add:
Overpower:
-Rank 1: +x% biotic damage, +x% newton to physics effect.
-Rank 2: -x% biotic cooldown, +x% biotic duration.
-Rank 3: longer Overpower.
-Rank 4: first biotic used explode on impact or first biotic used cause no cooldown.
-Rank 5: Overpower reset biotics cooldown or longer Overpower.
-Rank 6: Biotic powers ignore protections for physics effects or Biotics powers cause no global cooldown. (ME1 feeling again ^^)

Base duration would probably be about 10 seconds, cooldown would be about 60-90 seconds (should not be used more than once per battle), and of course it would have no global cooldown.

This idea can rightfully be used by Bioware.

For those interested or remotely curious, here are the evolution ranks for Overpower as the power appeared in the leaks:


Overpower   (For a short duration, you enter a heightened biotic state, enabling you to launch multiple powers.)
2nd Rank
Recharge   Increases the recharge speed of Overpower by x% 

3rd Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.

4th Rank
Power Duration   While under the effects of Overpower, the duration of your powers is increased by x%.
OR
Damage/Force   Increases the damage and force of powers cast during Overpower by x%.

5th Rank
Duration   Increases the duration of Overpower by x%.
OR
First Strike   The first power cast during Overpower causes no global cooldown.

6th Rank
Time Slow   Increases the amount the world is slowed by x%.
OR
Detonation   Biotic detonations do x% more damage and force and increase Overpower's duration by x seconds.

I don't really get what it means by multiple powers? Does it mean you can launch multiple biotic powers before there's a cooldown? If that's the case though, what does First Strike do? So confused....

[Darkstar Aurora]

In terms of the Adept/Singularity viability as a whole, I am not sure why people think Liara having Singularity and Warp makes the Adept “unnecessary”...

The strength of biotics is in combinations; both solo and in concert with team members. From what we have seen so far the Adept is the best class for biotic combinations: i
-having multiple opposing powers themselves
-having passive bonuses for self-combinations and squad-combinations
-having multiple bonuses squad biotic damage/force.

The fact that Liara has those abilities (along with Warp Ammo) only makes the Adept MORE powerful.

In the Power Stats and Evolutions thread we can see the beta version of Biotic Mastery has TWO evolutions (rank 4 and rank 6) that boost the biotic damage/force of henchmen’s powers by x%. There is an evolution in between at rank 5 reduces power recharge when executing a biotic combination.

In contrast, Sentinel Mastery only has one evolution that boosts squad power damage, and so far they have no biotic combinations that the Adept does not have in greater measure, and have no bonuses to biotic combinations that we have seen.

So not only is the Adept class the best so far at self-generated biotic combinations, they also make full-biotic-squad combinations more powerful than when used by other classes as well. If that was not enough, Liara’s passive ability has an evolution that reduces the recharge of squad biotic powers. Meaning that all of your powers benefit from this boost as an Adept, whereas only half of a Sentinels abilities are affected.

Thus, from all we have seen as far as squad biotics are concerned:
Adept + Liara > [insert other class here] + Liara

On the subject of having Singularity, as far as I am concerned in ME2 the ability to neutralize elite and boss enemies with Heavy Singularity, and then simultaneously annihilating their minions with three-part biotic combinations from the squad was FAR more rewarding to me than absorbing damage with Assault Armor or flinging myself into melee range with Heavy Charge. It also made your team live longer when Harbinger, Scions, and Eclipse bosses could not use any of their biotic/tech powers for the next 10-15 seconds.

[Shepard the Leper]

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

In terms of the Adept/Singularity viability as a whole, I am not sure why people think Liara having Singularity and Warp makes the Adept “unnecessary”...

Well, Liara has Singularity AND Stasis - she can instantly CC enemies all around the battlefield. Adept Shepard can only watch in awe because (s)he will be near-death before his/her projectiles even reach the target. Having a squadmate who makes Adept Shepard look like a biotic amateur isn't something I'm getting excited about.

The strength of biotics is in combinations; both solo and in concert with team members. From what we have seen so far the Adept is the best class for biotic combinations: i
-having multiple opposing powers themselves
-having passive bonuses for self-combinations and squad-combinations
-having multiple bonuses squad biotic damage/force.

The fact that Liara has those abilities (along with Warp Ammo) only makes the Adept MORE powerful.

That's not true. When you play a Soldier you can use all biotic powers and any combination. When you play Sentinel or Vanguard - the other (part-time) biotic, you have similar combo potential as the Adept.

In the Power Stats and Evolutions thread we can see the beta version of Biotic Mastery has TWO evolutions (rank 4 and rank 6) that boost the biotic damage/force of henchmen’s powers by x%. There is an evolution in between at rank 5 reduces power recharge when executing a biotic combination.

In contrast, Sentinel Mastery only has one evolution that boosts squad power damage, and so far they have no biotic combinations that the Adept does not have in greater measure, and have no bonuses to biotic combinations that we have seen.

It would have been ridiculous if the biotic specialist got outperformed by part-timers. Sure, the Adept has a tiny advantage, but doesn't have any combat or tech skills (stuff which can also be used to combo). At best it's a draw, but the Sentinel and the Vanguard have very cool unique skills on top of that. The choice between playing a class who has great biotic combo potential, extra tech/combat abilities, and awesome stuff like Tech Armor and Charge - OR a class who has nothing like that but a tiny advantage in biotic combo potential is a no-brainer.

So not only is the Adept class the best so far at self-generated biotic combinations, they also make full-biotic-squad combinations more powerful than when used by other classes as well. If that was not enough, Liara’s passive ability has an evolution that reduces the recharge of squad biotic powers. Meaning that all of your powers benefit from this boost as an Adept, whereas only half of a Sentinels abilities are affected.

Thus, from all we have seen as far as squad biotics are concerned:
Adept + Liara > [insert other class here] + Liara

That's also not true. In ME2 the Adept is the only class who can setup their own biotic combos. But when you add squadmates to the mix that becomes mostly irrelevant. The Sentinel's cooldown bonus and Tech Armor's squadpower reset feature (or glitch) makes them far better biotic combo specialists. Singularity is the only reason to justify an Adept playthrough in ME2, but in ME3 Liara is one of the permanent squadies so anyone can use it.

Sentinel or Vanguard + Liara = (95% squad biotic potential of (Adept + Liara)) + Tech Armor / Charge + tech / combat powers (and their respective combo potential).

On the subject of having Singularity, as far as I am concerned in ME2 the ability to neutralize elite and boss enemies with Heavy Singularity, and then simultaneously annihilating their minions with three-part biotic combinations from the squad was FAR more rewarding to me than absorbing damage with Assault Armor or flinging myself into melee range with Heavy Charge. It also made your team live longer when Harbinger, Scions, and Eclipse bosses could not use any of their biotic/tech powers for the next 10-15 seconds.

Yeah, that's really cool, but, unfortunately, all classes can have that advantage when bringing Liara yet their isn't anyone an Adept can take along to give them Charge, Tech Armo, Bullet Time, Cloak, or Turrets. The ME3 Adept is a buffed squadmate, not an unique class like the other five.

[Biotic Sage]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

In terms of the Adept/Singularity viability as a whole, I am not sure why people think Liara having Singularity and Warp makes the Adept “unnecessary”...

Well, Liara has Singularity AND Stasis - she can instantly CC enemies all around the battlefield. Adept Shepard can only watch in awe because (s)he will be near-death before his/her projectiles even reach the target. Having a squadmate who makes Adept Shepard look like a biotic amateur isn't something I'm getting excited about.

The strength of biotics is in combinations; both solo and in concert with team members. From what we have seen so far the Adept is the best class for biotic combinations: i
-having multiple opposing powers themselves
-having passive bonuses for self-combinations and squad-combinations
-having multiple bonuses squad biotic damage/force.

The fact that Liara has those abilities (along with Warp Ammo) only makes the Adept MORE powerful.

That's not true. When you play a Soldier you can use all biotic powers and any combination. When you play Sentinel or Vanguard - the other (part-time) biotic, you have similar combo potential as the Adept.

In the Power Stats and Evolutions thread we can see the beta version of Biotic Mastery has TWO evolutions (rank 4 and rank 6) that boost the biotic damage/force of henchmen’s powers by x%. There is an evolution in between at rank 5 reduces power recharge when executing a biotic combination.

In contrast, Sentinel Mastery only has one evolution that boosts squad power damage, and so far they have no biotic combinations that the Adept does not have in greater measure, and have no bonuses to biotic combinations that we have seen.

It would have been ridiculous if the biotic specialist got outperformed by part-timers. Sure, the Adept has a tiny advantage, but doesn't have any combat or tech skills (stuff which can also be used to combo). At best it's a draw, but the Sentinel and the Vanguard have very cool unique skills on top of that. The choice between playing a class who has great biotic combo potential, extra tech/combat abilities, and awesome stuff like Tech Armor and Charge - OR a class who has nothing like that but a tiny advantage in biotic combo potential is a no-brainer.

So not only is the Adept class the best so far at self-generated biotic combinations, they also make full-biotic-squad combinations more powerful than when used by other classes as well. If that was not enough, Liara’s passive ability has an evolution that reduces the recharge of squad biotic powers. Meaning that all of your powers benefit from this boost as an Adept, whereas only half of a Sentinels abilities are affected.

Thus, from all we have seen as far as squad biotics are concerned:
Adept + Liara > [insert other class here] + Liara

That's also not true. In ME2 the Adept is the only class who can setup their own biotic combos. But when you add squadmates to the mix that becomes mostly irrelevant. The Sentinel's cooldown bonus and Tech Armor's squadpower reset feature (or glitch) makes them far better biotic combo specialists. Singularity is the only reason to justify an Adept playthrough in ME2, but in ME3 Liara is one of the permanent squadies so anyone can use it.

Sentinel or Vanguard + Liara = (95% squad biotic potential of (Adept + Liara)) + Tech Armor / Charge + tech / combat powers (and their respective combo potential).

On the subject of having Singularity, as far as I am concerned in ME2 the ability to neutralize elite and boss enemies with Heavy Singularity, and then simultaneously annihilating their minions with three-part biotic combinations from the squad was FAR more rewarding to me than absorbing damage with Assault Armor or flinging myself into melee range with Heavy Charge. It also made your team live longer when Harbinger, Scions, and Eclipse bosses could not use any of their biotic/tech powers for the next 10-15 seconds.

Yeah, that's really cool, but, unfortunately, all classes can have that advantage when bringing Liara yet their isn't anyone an Adept can take along to give them Charge, Tech Armo, Bullet Time, Cloak, or Turrets. The ME3 Adept is a buffed squadmate, not an unique class like the other five.

I agree with you Leper.  I really think the Adept needed a new signature power to really give the class a unique flavor (or add to the already unique flavor), like Vanguard got with Nova and Engineer got with Sentry Turret.  A grenade, regardless of how cool it is or how different the effects may be from other grenades, does not make the Adept stand out because pretty much every class (and many squadmates) have some sort of grenade.  Plus, the grenade the Adept gets in ME3 is basically just another version of a physics-based, "throw the enemy around" power much like throw, pull, or shockwave.  That makes it redundant in my view, but I digress...

Liara having Singularity really does steal the Adept's thunder if Singularity is going to be the only unique signature power of the Adept.  However, I will say that the Adept does not become "unnecessary" or irrelevant because two singularities on the battlefield at once is epic.  

As I've said before, I personally thought the "hyper mode" power that was known as "Overpower" really was what the class needed: the ability to feel like a master biotic user, better than the other classes that just dabbled in biotic abilities.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 22 janvier 2012 - 12:43 .

[Random citizen]

implodinggoat wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

 One point I think we don't have enough information about is that Bioware mentioned that there would be MORE biotic combination effects like Warpbomb.

So, until we know exactly what those combos ARE and DO, it's too early to tell how good or bad the adept is IMO.

That's a very good point.   It would be nice if they'd throw out a little more info on some of the new combos.

What makes you say Adept-close range= bad except for old fashioned D&D rules?

Getting close to any biotic seems like bad idea as it they probably needs to spend less energy in relation to biotic effect hitting the enemy. (simple termodynamics, generating greater fields and extending range requires more power). The architypal difference between the adept, vanguard and sentinel is that the adept is that the adept is more adept in biotics the then other two, its less reliable on ordinary weaponry.

Modifié par Random citizen, 22 janvier 2012 - 01:18 .

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

implodinggoat wrote...

floppypig wrote...

I agree with you, I think this would be the perfect second class ability for the adept. BIOWARE, HERE, LOOK OVER HERE!!!!!

I think he was being a little sarcastic with that post.

An ability called "Overpower" that worked pretty much like what he described was going to be the second class power for the Adept before the Biotic Grenade.

But the devs said that in play testing they couldn't get it working the way they wanted it to which is a pity since it sounded pretty rad.

Actually I wasn't sarcastic, I just gave another possible build for overpower, as I cannot thrust that a team so sure about having a well-polished-game-not-dumbed-down-because-of-multiplayer cannot just let a cool power go just because one of it's version doesn't work properly, changing it by a stupid grenade instead on working on another version.

[Random citizen]

Biotic Sage wrote...
....
As I've said before, I personally thought the "hyper mode" power that was known as "Overpower" really was what the class needed: the ability to feel like a master biotic user, better than the other classes that just dabbled in biotic abilities.

Agreed. The adept should have a unique and very powerful ability that signifies biotic mastery, I guess it must take time and experience to develop (evolve into its full power) for balacing reasons though (because how the gameplay is constructed, the adept would follow the traditional rpg-mage path, weak in low levels but the most powerful in the end levels)

[implodinggoat]

Random citizen wrote...

Agreed. The adept should have a unique and very powerful ability that signifies biotic mastery, I guess it must take time and experience to develop (evolve into its full power) for balacing reasons though (because how the gameplay is constructed, the adept would follow the traditional rpg-mage path, weak in low levels but the most powerful in the end levels)

The DLC squaddie is rumored to have a power kind of like that called Biotic Focus.  Seems like it would have been a good fit for the Adept.  Here's the leaked evolution tree for it (Subject to Change).


Biotic Focus   (Biotic Focus will reset the cooldowns on offensive powers for all squad members.)

2nd Rank
Recharge Speed   Increases the recharge speed of Biotic Focus by x%

3rd Rank
Damage   The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x%

4th Rank
Damage/Force   The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x% and its force boosted by x%
OR
Damage/Radius   
The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x% and its impact radius boosted by x%

5th Rank
Damage/Force Buff   Power damage is increased by x% and force increased by x% for x seconds.
OR
Duration/Radius Buff   Power duration increased by x% and impact radius increased by x% for x seconds.

6th Rank
Recharge Speed Buff   Power recharge speed increased by x% for x seconds.
OR
Recharge Speed   Increases the recharge speed of Biotic Focus by x%

Modifié par implodinggoat, 22 janvier 2012 - 02:01 .

[Shepard the Leper]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I agree with you Leper.  I really think the Adept needed a new signature power to really give the class a unique flavor (or add to the already unique flavor), like Vanguard got with Nova and Engineer got with Sentry Turret.  A grenade, regardless of how cool it is or how different the effects may be from other grenades, does not make the Adept stand out because pretty much every class (and many squadmates) have some sort of grenade.  Plus, the grenade the Adept gets in ME3 is basically just another version of a physics-based, "throw the enemy around" power much like throw, pull, or shockwave.  That makes it redundant in my view, but I digress...

Liara having Singularity really does steal the Adept's thunder if Singularity is going to be the only unique signature power of the Adept.  However, I will say that the Adept does not become "unnecessary" or irrelevant because two singularities on the battlefield at once is epic.  

As I've said before, I personally thought the "hyper mode" power that was known as "Overpower" really was what the class needed: the ability to feel like a master biotic user, better than the other classes that just dabbled in biotic abilities.

I'm not saying the Adept is not worth playing, but it's on the level of having an additional Overload or Cryo Blast for tech based classes. I love (ME2) biotics and the Adept is my favorite class. I simply conclude - based on the power selection of classes and squadmates - that the Adept doesn't have anything like the cool stuff the other classes have at their disposal. That's disappointing imho.

The grenades look like a poor way to give the Adept something they can use while on cooldown. "Overpower" has far more potential and could be limited (times you can use it per mission) like grenades (the ME2 medkits come to mind). Having a power that greatly increased the Adept's biotic potential for a short time (better damage, duration and cooldown) would be something unique (and true to the lore). Plus it would make Liara look at Shepard in awe

We'll have to wait and see how ME3 plays, but on paper things are looking subpar for the Adept at best.

[Random citizen]

implodinggoat wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

Agreed. The adept should have a unique and very powerful ability that signifies biotic mastery, I guess it must take time and experience to develop (evolve into its full power) for balacing reasons though (because how the gameplay is constructed, the adept would follow the traditional rpg-mage path, weak in low levels but the most powerful in the end levels)

The DLC squaddie is rumored to have a power kind of like that called Biotic Focus.  Seems like it would have been a good fit for the Adept.  Here's the leaked evolution tree for it (Subject to Change).


Biotic Focus   (Biotic Focus will reset the cooldowns on offensive powers for all squad members.)

2nd Rank
Recharge Speed   Increases the recharge speed of Biotic Focus by x%

3rd Rank
Damage   The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x%

4th Rank
Damage/Force   The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x% and its force boosted by x%
OR
Damage/Radius   
The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x% and its impact radius boosted by x%

5th Rank
Damage/Force Buff   Power damage is increased by x% and force increased by x% for x seconds.
OR
Duration/Radius Buff   Power duration increased by x% and impact radius increased by x% for x seconds.

6th Rank
Recharge Speed Buff   Power recharge speed increased by x% for x seconds.
OR
Recharge Speed   Increases the recharge speed of Biotic Focus by x%

I dislike squad powers that works like magic in a setting that does not allow for such magic.

Modifié par Random citizen, 22 janvier 2012 - 02:17 .

[implodinggoat]

Random citizen wrote...

I dislike squad powers that works like magic in a setting that does not allow for such magic.

Yeah, I dislike Reave for that very reason; but I don't think this one is that bad its just amplifying the biotic effect not magically draining someone's health like Reave.

[Shepard the Leper]

implodinggoat wrote...

The DLC squaddie is rumored to have a power kind of like that called Biotic Focus.  Seems like it would have been a good fit for the Adept.  Here's the leaked evolution tree for it (Subject to Change).


Biotic Focus   (Biotic Focus will reset the cooldowns on offensive powers for all squad members.)

2nd Rank
Recharge Speed   Increases the recharge speed of Biotic Focus by x%

3rd Rank
Damage   The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x%

4th Rank
Damage/Force   The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x% and its force boosted by x%
OR
Damage/Radius   
The next offensive power used will have its damage boosted by x% and its impact radius boosted by x%

5th Rank
Damage/Force Buff   Power damage is increased by x% and force increased by x% for x seconds.
OR
Duration/Radius Buff   Power duration increased by x% and impact radius increased by x% for x seconds.

6th Rank
Recharge Speed Buff   Power recharge speed increased by x% for x seconds.
OR
Recharge Speed   Increases the recharge speed of Biotic Focus by x%

That sounds like a really cool power for the Adept. It's beyond me why some of the good stuff is given to squadmates instead of Shepard. It's pretty bad having to take on a bonus power to make the Adept feel complete - ME2 Stasis deja vu.

[Random citizen]

implodinggoat wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

I dislike squad powers that works like magic in a setting that does not allow for such magic.

Yeah, I dislike Reave for that very reason; but I don't think this one is that bad its just amplifying the biotic effect not magically draining someone's health like Reave.

So, the character...descreases or increases the mass in othe other charcters nervous system so they ..no longer get as.. tired of using their biotic offensive powers... 

No. that does not fly.