249 réponses à ce sujet

[1136342t54_]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Also, to everyone saying the people on the Citadel not thinking this is their problem is realistic....Do you really think it would be realistic for people in the US to say it's not their problem if Australia suddenly got ravaged by Cthulhu? Not to mention only two years after the US had been attacked by Cthulhu?

Kind of makes sense, their going for a WW2 inspiration for this and in World War 2 America didn't see Hitler's conquest of Europe as their problem.

It makes no sense at all. Humans are one of the f***ing Council races. If the asari had gotten hit first, the turians would have jumped right in to defend them. It's nothing but bulls*** writing to continue to make us hate the Council. I will oblige BioWare and have my paragon Shepard go apes***. 

Actually the Citadel Council are under no real obligation to defend each other. Remember the only way a civililzation can get a seat on the Council is if that they are capable of defending themselves very affectively.

[mkk316]

To be fair, the article did state that their attitude will change over time, I wonder how many deaths it will take though. Grrrrr

[Candidate 88766]

1136342t54 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Apart from Arrival, you can never lose, and even then its a game over screen that sends you straight back into the game. Even in ME2 you destroy the Collectors. Shepard and any number of crew/squadmembers can die, but the Collectors are defeated. The same goes for ME3 it seems.

Actually I'm wondering if its something like the SM but larger, if the article is right it could be that most or all civilizations are destroyed even after using the Mcguffin and the Reapers are defeated. The only hope left is if some of the minor less advanced races survived and can make their own civilizations to rival the dead ones.

The end run of ME3 seems like the SM in that you must meet certain criteria before you can start it.

They could've let Shepard use the Omega 4 Relay earlier in ME2 - before you even know about needing a Reaper IFF - and had a cutscene showing you failing to bring home the whole suicide mission thing, but it would have ultimately been rather pointless.

You can't actually fail in any ME game. Even the Arrival fail ending is more of an easter egg. You've known since the start of ME1 that Shepard would win, that you'd end up beating the Reapers. What makes the story interesting is what you have to sacrifice in order to win. The ME story has, from the very start, been a character-driven story. Over the course of these games, most people have come to care about certain characters. No-one was ever in any doubt that you'd beat the Reapers in the end - these games are an homage to classic sci-fi like Star Wars where the hero goes off on an adventure around the galaxy to defeat some evil - but no-one really knows what you'll lose on the journey to the end. Thats how Bioware can show that the Reapers are a threat - through would you lose and what you have to sacrifice to beat them.

And consider this - when you first started playing ME1 you knew, deep down, that you were going to win. The heroes always win. However, the end run was no less exciting because of this, and Sovereign seemed no less of a threat.

You don't need to see the Reapers win in order to know they're a threat - if the script is anything to go by you'll see plenty of occasions that prove how much of a threat they are. 

[RocketManSR2]

There were some cool things mentioned, but more than a couple made me groan. Like this little nugget: "(7) Some optional missions may become unavailable if you don't finish them before certain story events happen. That might adversely affect your campaign." More timed mission bulls***.

[Candidate 88766]

Also, as to the Citadel ignoring the threat - perhaps they feel that if they don't do anything to antagonize the Reapers they'll be left alone. You visit the Citadel very early on in ME3 - before all the attacks on other homeplanets it seems - so perhaps they initially feel that the Reapers pose no threat to any species other than humanity.

After seeing what the Reapers did to Earth in virtually no time at all, no species is going to risk drawing the Reapers' wrath by attacking them. As it becomes apparent that this is a galaxy-wide war, their opinions will change.

[1136342t54_]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Apart from Arrival, you can never lose, and even then its a game over screen that sends you straight back into the game. Even in ME2 you destroy the Collectors. Shepard and any number of crew/squadmembers can die, but the Collectors are defeated. The same goes for ME3 it seems.

Actually I'm wondering if its something like the SM but larger, if the article is right it could be that most or all civilizations are destroyed even after using the Mcguffin and the Reapers are defeated. The only hope left is if some of the minor less advanced races survived and can make their own civilizations to rival the dead ones.

The end run of ME3 seems like the SM in that you must meet certain criteria before you can start it.

They could've let Shepard use the Omega 4 Relay earlier in ME2 - before you even know about needing a Reaper IFF - and had a cutscene showing you failing to bring home the whole suicide mission thing, but it would have ultimately been rather pointless.

You can't actually fail in any ME game. Even the Arrival fail ending is more of an easter egg. You've known since the start of ME1 that Shepard would win, that you'd end up beating the Reapers. What makes the story interesting is what you have to sacrifice in order to win. The ME story has, from the very start, been a character-driven story. Over the course of these games, most people have come to care about certain characters. No-one was ever in any doubt that you'd beat the Reapers in the end - these games are an homage to classic sci-fi like Star Wars where the hero goes off on an adventure around the galaxy to defeat some evil - but no-one really knows what you'll lose on the journey to the end. Thats how Bioware can show that the Reapers are a threat - through would you lose and what you have to sacrifice to beat them.

And consider this - when you first started playing ME1 you knew, deep down, that you were going to win. The heroes always win. However, the end run was no less exciting because of this, and Sovereign seemed no less of a threat.

You don't need to see the Reapers win in order to know they're a threat - if the script is anything to go by you'll see plenty of occasions that prove how much of a threat they are. 

Preaching to the choir. 

To some people on this board its not enough that it likely took one or more very advanced ancient races to find ways of defeating the Reapers and dying in the process for the current society to even have a chance at beating the Reapers. Even then most of Galactic civilization will still die.

[Candidate 88766]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

There were some cool things mentioned, but more than a couple made me groan. Like this little nugget: "(7) Some optional missions may become unavailable if you don't finish them before certain story events happen. That might adversely affect your campaign." More timed mission bulls***.

(5) Reaper-controlled territory will change as the story progresses, but only main plot decisions trigger these changes. You'll have all the time you need for sidequests.


So basically do side missions before doing the big main missions, otherwise you may lose the opportunity to do certain missions.

Also, its pretty understandable. If you keep leaving side quests on a certain planet, then that planet might be destroyed or that location might beomce unavailable. The missions aren't timed as such, its just that each main mission can change the status of the galaxy and which missions are and aren't available.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 21 janvier 2012 - 10:00 .

[Candidate 88766]

1136342t54 wrote...

Preaching to the choir. 

To some people on this board its not enough that it likely took one or more very advanced ancient races to find ways of defeating the Reapers and dying in the process for the current society to even have a chance at beating the Reapers. Even then most of Galactic civilization will still die.

Exactly. You don't need a 'fail' ending for something to be a threat. We've basically known from the start that you were going to beat them. The same goes for virtually every film, game and book ever made - the hero wins. no-one wants to read something where the hero fails - thats what happens in real life. Stories are a way to escape from that. Stories are where the hero can win.

Also, from what I've read, some of the damage the Reapers can do to civilization is more than enough to make them a threat.

[Wulfram]

loungeshep wrote...

Kind of makes sense, their going for a WW2 inspiration for this and in World War 2 America didn't see Hitler's conquest of Europe as their problem.

Hitler hadn't launched a surprise attack on Washington two years ago.  And wasn't Space Cthulhu.

[1136342t54_]

Wulfram wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

Kind of makes sense, their going for a WW2 inspiration for this and in World War 2 America didn't see Hitler's conquest of Europe as their problem.

Hitler hadn't launched a surprise attack on Washington two years ago.  And wasn't Space Cthulhu.

Bah! Its obviously just multiple Geth prototype mecha Cthulhu.

[Candidate 88766]

Wulfram wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

Kind of makes sense, their going for a WW2 inspiration for this and in World War 2 America didn't see Hitler's conquest of Europe as their problem.

Hitler hadn't launched a surprise attack on Washington two years ago.  And wasn't Space Cthulhu.

Lets say that a few years ago a giant space Cthulu had landed in Washington and torn it up until it was killed.

Then a few years later Europe gets devastated in a matter of hours when an entire armada of gian space Cthulus turn up. America isn't going to go out of its way to attack them for fear of retaliation.

I think thats whats going on with the people on the Citadel - as long as the Reapers arne't attacking them, they aren't going to risk angering them. They saw what they did to Earth with minimal effort, and they don't want to bring that on their own worlds. Its a foolish hope to imagine that the Reapers are only here for humanity, but its a hope they'd want to hold onto for as long as possible - as long as they don't anger the Reapers, maybe they'll be left unscathed.

[Ieldra]

Wulfram wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

Kind of makes sense, their going for a WW2 inspiration for this and in World War 2 America didn't see Hitler's conquest of Europe as their problem.

Hitler hadn't launched a surprise attack on Washington two years ago.  And wasn't Space Cthulhu.

The problem is, the people on the CItadel likely don't believe it's Space Cthulhu. They believe it's some unknown and powerful, but in the end "normal" species. It will take some evidence to make them come around.

[TheCreeper]

Unless the council is brain dead I imagine they are concerned about the reapers, it's just that the Civilian population doesn't give a crap, which is dickish but understandable.

[HiroVoid]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

Kind of makes sense, their going for a WW2 inspiration for this and in World War 2 America didn't see Hitler's conquest of Europe as their problem.

Hitler hadn't launched a surprise attack on Washington two years ago.  And wasn't Space Cthulhu.

The problem is, the people on the CItadel likely don't believe it's Space Cthulhu. They believe it's some unknown and powerful, but in the end "normal" species. It will take some evidence to make them come around.

Even then, if you take the history with the rachni and Krogan, that doesn't paint a pretty picture for what's about to happen.....well, as long as the Council is trying to do something, I guess that'll be fine.

[Candidate 88766]

TheCreeper wrote...

Unless the council is brain dead I imagine they are concerned about the reapers, it's just that the Civilian population doesn't give a crap, which is dickish but understandable.

Oh yeah, they're almost certainly worried about them. However, after seeing what they did to Earth they're not going to want to risk their own planets by attacking the Reapers, who would no doubt retaliate. As long as their homeworlds are safe, the Council probably do consider the war to be humanity's problem.

[squee365]

This is some really good info. Looking forward to sidequests and that minigame.

[Wulfram]

If we were being told that the people on the citadel were panicking and too concerned about their own survival to be interested in trying to help Earth, that would make total sense.

But the idea that they're "naive and believe the war doesn't concern them" is just ridiculous.

[HiroVoid]

Wulfram wrote...

If we were being told that the people on the citadel were panicking and too concerned about their own survival to be interested in trying to help Earth, that would make total sense.

But the idea that they're "naive and believe the war doesn't concern them" is just ridiculous.

Pretty much this.  If nobody wants to attack first for fear of Reaper retaliation, that'd be fine.  But they need to start organizing a coordinated assault.  Not going on with their lives like their just going to blow up Earth and stop there.

[mkk316]

HiroVoid wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If we were being told that the people on the citadel were panicking and too concerned about their own survival to be interested in trying to help Earth, that would make total sense.

But the idea that they're "naive and believe the war doesn't concern them" is just ridiculous.

Pretty much this.  If nobody wants to attack first for fear of Reaper retaliation, that'd be fine.  But they need to start organizing a coordinated assault.  Not going on with their lives like their just going to blow up Earth and stop there.

I could deal with that easier than them saying "oh its not our problem, best of luck to  ya"  at least they'd be planning something.  We'll see, im ready to be an ***hole to them if that isn't going to be the case.  I'm praying for a renegade interrupt where I just toss a chair at the council members or flip a table. lol.

Modifié par mkk316, 21 janvier 2012 - 10:30 .

[ReallyRue]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(15) Casey Hudson is quoted as saying that it is "a good idea to stick to your principles" with regard to your style of action, i.e. Paragon/Renegade. And I hoped we wouldn't be railroaded onto one path this time.... Though the context suggests that this might be NPC-specific, i.e. you should stick to your principles with regard to decisions affecting one character or species. I would like some clarification on this.

Very interesting. Though I hope this final point doesn't mean we have to be almost 100% paragon/renegade or suffer for it. I really like having a more balanced character, and chosing options based on the situation, and not because of "I'm renegade so I pick renegade option every time" fail-logic.

[TheCreeper]

ReallyRue wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

(15) Casey Hudson is quoted as saying that it is "a good idea to stick to your principles" with regard to your style of action, i.e. Paragon/Renegade. And I hoped we wouldn't be railroaded onto one path this time.... Though the context suggests that this might be NPC-specific, i.e. you should stick to your principles with regard to decisions affecting one character or species. I would like some clarification on this.

Very interesting. Though I hope this final point doesn't mean we have to be almost 100% paragon/renegade or suffer for it. I really like having a more balanced character, and chosing options based on the situation, and not because of "I'm renegade so I pick renegade option every time" fail-logic.

I recall them saying that Pure Paragon or Pure Renegade is not going to get you the golden ending. Personally doing pure either morality is stupid, Pure Paragon is overly naive and too trusting while pure renegade Shepard is a xenophobic **** who murders and brutalizes people for no reason.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Good info. Thanks for posting OP.

[loungeshep]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

loungeshep wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Also, to everyone saying the people on the Citadel not thinking this is their problem is realistic....Do you really think it would be realistic for people in the US to say it's not their problem if Australia suddenly got ravaged by Cthulhu? Not to mention only two years after the US had been attacked by Cthulhu?

Kind of makes sense, their going for a WW2 inspiration for this and in World War 2 America didn't see Hitler's conquest of Europe as their problem.

It makes no sense at all. Humans are one of the f***ing Council races. If the asari had gotten hit first, the turians would have jumped right in to defend them. It's nothing but bulls*** writing to continue to make us hate the Council. I will oblige BioWare and have my paragon Shepard go apes***. 

So? America was apart of the Allied Nations at the time. Also, humans may be on the council, but they aren't popular.

Now it's a human council(that is if you killed the original council) then you have a point.

Edit: Anyways, who cares, maybe we'll have the option to 'lose the channel' when the council calls begging for help.

Modifié par loungeshep, 21 janvier 2012 - 11:24 .

[Arkitekt]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(2) At the start, people on the Citadel will believe that the war isn't their problem. This will drastically change in the course of the story.

This sounds pretty dumb. One thing is for the council to be "dismissive" of past bad memories, quite another is to ignore one of your council races' homeplanet being ravaged to pieces as "not their problem".

(4) If you enter Reaper-controlled territory, there's a chance the Reapers will try to hunt you down and you must do something to avoid them. That's referred to as a minigame.

Seems a little cheesy, but potentially fun.

(6) Some missions are mutually exclusive. Which one you choose from a set of options might affect the fate of civilizations and the loyalty of NPCs.

(7) Some optional missions may become unavailable if you don't finish them before certain story events happen. That might adversely affect your campaign.

These are great great news. 

(9) All missions may influence your reputation with NPCs (unclear whether this only refers to team members). That in turn may influence your interaction with them in future. NPCs differ in what they prefer, some may be more impressed by Renegade decisions, some more by Paragon decisions, but all will be influenced by decisions affecting their species.

Many things have been said in the internets about the paragon/renegade simplistic "choices" in recent games by gamedesigner critics, and the idea of "reputation" feedbacks while not being a novelty whatsoever, is good news to include in ME3. Makes characters much more interesting, increase replayability, etc.

(10) If old team members are dead, different things may happen depending on the character. Sometimes a story arc will be completely lost, sometimes there will be a replacement character, sometimes the story will develop in a totally different way.

Seems nice, very nice, but I'll wait to believe it. My expectations on this point are very low, I just expect replacements on every particular plot that has any minimal influence on the story, and some "losses" in the story for those plots that are completely irrelevant.

(11) There will be no "Reapers win" scenario, based on the reasoning that such an ending is unsatisfying for players and would lead to re-loading a saved game anyway. There will, however, be endings where whole species become extinct and many worlds are destroyed, including Earth.

"Unsatisfying" my ass. It would be an awesome ending, if you wrote it well. Specially considering that you'd probably have to really "suck balls" to get it. I mean, it's not as if Shepard isn't able to die in ME2.

(12) The Collector base decision will become important at some point, but whatever you did with it will not have any negative repercussions (How they'll manage that and make it still be important I'm curious to see).

It won't have *any* repercussions at all, that's what I expect anyway.

(13) How the war progresses will also affect the Normandy somehow.

????? Most elusive point .

(15) Casey Hudson is quoted as saying that it is "a good idea to stick to your principles" with regard to your style of action, i.e. Paragon/Renegade. And I hoped we wouldn't be railroaded onto one path this time.... Though the context suggests that this might be NPC-specific, i.e. you should stick to your principles with regard to decisions affecting one character or species. I would like some clarification on this.

Yeah.... sucks balls. But I know I'll love the game.

[Wulfram]

loungeshep wrote...

So? America was apart of the Allied Nations at the time.

No it wasn't

Also, humans may be on the council, but they aren't popular.

If you saved the Council, they're pretty popular.