88264 réponses à ce sujet

[Clover Rider]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm not follwoing those animes.

I've seen plenty of DBZ, One Piece and soem other shonen episodes, but I never really got into it.
It's colorfull and full of crazy ideas and designs. Good for kids.

My taste lies more with the anime that tries to make some sense.
Exception for comedic anime exist (like Excel Saga)

As I said, it is comedic. Just watch the original. (not Dragon Ball Z, but the prequel - Dragon Ball... only then will you understand and be with a worthy opinion)... I dare you to say it is all you thought it to be after it.

PS, I dislike all shonen anime with vigor (except Death Note and the likes - the original DB being not shonen but rather a gag anime, i.e. comedic stuff).

I did watch the original.....


Also, does Death Note qualify as Shonen?
Arn't those usually about kids savinghhte universe with the power of PWR LVL and FRIENDSHIP?

The only fighting type show with young protagonist I can stand is Saint Seiya...and partially One Piece

Death Note is shonen.

Shonen can be anything from battle to gag to romance and so on and any mix of them. 

As for the art of Dragon Ball being basic and oversimplified again it's a gag series and it's a weekly so....

And the Saiya-jin race is just a joke off of Superman, Toriyama loves to make fun of Superman.

Also Naruto and Bleach are in no way better fighting series than Dragon Ball.

Oh and HiroVoid is right about everything in his post.

Maybe in your opinion but I think Naruto at least has something pretty good going for it,certainly found it more accessible than DB and One Piece. Just wih it wasn't so stretched out and fillers are just pointless.

Rock Lee vs Gaara was the only good fight, if you are just looking at Naruto for the fights.

If you are looking at Naruto for plot and characters, One Piece beats by a lot.

If you are looking at Naruto for humor, Dragon Ball and One Piece beats it by a lot.

If you are looking at Naruto for art, One Piece beats it.

And If you want to know why I would love to tell you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Some Geth wrote...
Death Note is shonen.

Shonen can be anything from battle to gag to romance and so on and any mix of them.

Could have fooled me. It's more dark and the characters are older and more serious.
It feels nothing like a shonen.

[HiroVoid]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
Death Note is shonen.

Shonen can be anything from battle to gag to romance and so on and any mix of them.

Could have fooled me. It's more dark and the characters are older and more serious.
It feels nothing like a shonen.

Shounen's basically completely defined by the magazine that publishes it.  Hunter x Hunter and Shingeki No Kyojin that I put are manga that I could see a lot of people easily mistaking for Seinen.  Death Note, while dark, doesn't have any sexual or grusome enough scenes that would warrant it to have be Seinen.  Of course, all manga have to do well enough in a ratings score in the manga or in sales, so I could see why people wouldn't want to risk a dark manga in shounen as much.

[eroeru]

So it is defined strictly by being released in Shonen Jump!?

I thought it more to be about the age-demographic... and thus as a debatable topic.

[HiroVoid]

eroeru wrote...

So it is defined strictly by being released in Shonen Jump!?

I thought it more to be about the age-demographic... and thus as a debatable topic.

Well, different magazines have different demographics.  Also, different magazines have different standards for what they'll publish as Shounen.  Hunter x Hunter's probably the most gorey manga in Shounen Jump.  Shingeki No Kyojin's published in a different magazine called Bessatsu Shounen Jump.

[Clover Rider]

HiroVoid wrote...

eroeru wrote...

So it is defined strictly by being released in Shonen Jump!?

I thought it more to be about the age-demographic... and thus as a debatable topic.

Well, different magazines have different demographics.  Also, different magazines have different standards for what they'll publish as Shounen.  Hunter x Hunter's probably the most gorey manga in Shounen Jump.  Shingeki No Kyojin's published in a different magazine called Bessatsu Shounen Jump.

Shonen Jump main readership is middle schoolers and high schoolers.

Shonen is a dempgraphic for young boys sure but like HiroVoid said "different magazines have different standards" Shonen Jump standard is they will take anything they see as good and put it in even if it's gorey like Hunter x Hunter or Toriko.

Now the Death Note writer has said Shonen Jumo should have more mature manga in, now that is not to say he dislikes Shonen Jump manga that are not mature since he did make a gag manga for 5 years.

Bakuman is a good manga to read on how Shonen Jump and manga work, it's also made by the same duo who made Death Note.

Modifié par Some Geth, 24 janvier 2012 - 09:30 .

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Some Geth wrote...

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm not follwoing those animes.

I've seen plenty of DBZ, One Piece and soem other shonen episodes, but I never really got into it.
It's colorfull and full of crazy ideas and designs. Good for kids.

My taste lies more with the anime that tries to make some sense.
Exception for comedic anime exist (like Excel Saga)

As I said, it is comedic. Just watch the original. (not Dragon Ball Z, but the prequel - Dragon Ball... only then will you understand and be with a worthy opinion)... I dare you to say it is all you thought it to be after it.

PS, I dislike all shonen anime with vigor (except Death Note and the likes - the original DB being not shonen but rather a gag anime, i.e. comedic stuff).

I did watch the original.....


Also, does Death Note qualify as Shonen?
Arn't those usually about kids savinghhte universe with the power of PWR LVL and FRIENDSHIP?

The only fighting type show with young protagonist I can stand is Saint Seiya...and partially One Piece

Death Note is shonen.

Shonen can be anything from battle to gag to romance and so on and any mix of them. 

As for the art of Dragon Ball being basic and oversimplified again it's a gag series and it's a weekly so....

And the Saiya-jin race is just a joke off of Superman, Toriyama loves to make fun of Superman.

Also Naruto and Bleach are in no way better fighting series than Dragon Ball.

Oh and HiroVoid is right about everything in his post.

Maybe in your opinion but I think Naruto at least has something pretty good going for it,certainly found it more accessible than DB and One Piece. Just wih it wasn't so stretched out and fillers are just pointless.

Rock Lee vs Gaara was the only good fight, if you are just looking at Naruto for the fights.

If you are looking at Naruto for plot and characters, One Piece beats by a lot.

If you are looking at Naruto for humor, Dragon Ball and One Piece beats it by a lot.

If you are looking at Naruto for art, One Piece beats it.

And If you want to know why I would love to tell you.

1)Nope, you are incorrect
2)That's debatable, humour isn't really the number one focus in Naruto
3)Please, One Piece  just looks too exaggerated whe it comes to most of the main characters to the point where it doesn't look nice anymore. 

Pretty much all the things you said are subjective to different opinions.

Oh yea the fight you mentioned is pretty mediocre since it's like one of the most powerful chars against one of the weakest/worst(Yea I'm hating on Lee).

[eroeru]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...


3)Please, One Piece  just looks too exaggerated whe it comes to most of the main characters to the point where it doesn't look nice anymore.

Pretty much all the things you said are subjective to different opinions.

So far I myself would agree. (though on the subjectivity, to a degree - there's always some objectiveness, even if it's well-hidden, in these opinions)

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...
Oh yea the fight you mentioned is pretty mediocre since it's like one of the most powerful chars against one of the weakest/worst(Yea I'm hating on Lee).

This, however, is incorrect.

Modifié par eroeru, 24 janvier 2012 - 10:50 .

[HiroVoid]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...
1)Nope, you are incorrect
2)That's debatable, humour isn't really the number one focus in Naruto
3)Please, One Piece  just looks too exaggerated whe it comes to most of the main characters to the point where it doesn't look nice anymore. 

Pretty much all the things you said are subjective to different opinions.

Oh yea the fight you mentioned is pretty mediocre since it's like one of the most powerful chars against one of the weakest/worst(Yea I'm hating on Lee).

1)What's good about Naruto's plot?
2)I suppose.  What parts of Naruto have you found funny?
3)Most of the pages of One Piece are very lively, drawn very well, and has very obvious effort put behind.  The exaggerated art style is that, a style.  I suppose I can see why someone wouldn't like it though.

[eroeru]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Oh yea the fight you mentioned is pretty mediocre since it's like one of the most powerful chars against one of the weakest/worst(Yea I'm hating on Lee).

One of the things I personally find iffy about this statement is that from this it seems a good fight is defined by how strong the adversaries are. No it isn't. Psychological nuances are at least as much, and in my opinion much much more important to any confrontation.

Modifié par eroeru, 24 janvier 2012 - 10:53 .

[Clover Rider]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm not follwoing those animes.

I've seen plenty of DBZ, One Piece and soem other shonen episodes, but I never really got into it.
It's colorfull and full of crazy ideas and designs. Good for kids.

My taste lies more with the anime that tries to make some sense.
Exception for comedic anime exist (like Excel Saga)

As I said, it is comedic. Just watch the original. (not Dragon Ball Z, but the prequel - Dragon Ball... only then will you understand and be with a worthy opinion)... I dare you to say it is all you thought it to be after it.

PS, I dislike all shonen anime with vigor (except Death Note and the likes - the original DB being not shonen but rather a gag anime, i.e. comedic stuff).

I did watch the original.....


Also, does Death Note qualify as Shonen?
Arn't those usually about kids savinghhte universe with the power of PWR LVL and FRIENDSHIP?

The only fighting type show with young protagonist I can stand is Saint Seiya...and partially One Piece

Death Note is shonen.

Shonen can be anything from battle to gag to romance and so on and any mix of them. 

As for the art of Dragon Ball being basic and oversimplified again it's a gag series and it's a weekly so....

And the Saiya-jin race is just a joke off of Superman, Toriyama loves to make fun of Superman.

Also Naruto and Bleach are in no way better fighting series than Dragon Ball.

Oh and HiroVoid is right about everything in his post.

Maybe in your opinion but I think Naruto at least has something pretty good going for it,certainly found it more accessible than DB and One Piece. Just wih it wasn't so stretched out and fillers are just pointless.

Rock Lee vs Gaara was the only good fight, if you are just looking at Naruto for the fights.

If you are looking at Naruto for plot and characters, One Piece beats by a lot.

If you are looking at Naruto for humor, Dragon Ball and One Piece beats it by a lot.

If you are looking at Naruto for art, One Piece beats it.

And If you want to know why I would love to tell you.

1)Nope, you are incorrect
2)That's debatable, humour isn't really the number one focus in Naruto
3)Please, One Piece  just looks too exaggerated whe it comes to most of the main characters to the point where it doesn't look nice anymore. 

Pretty much all the things you said are subjective to different opinions.

Oh yea the fight you mentioned is pretty mediocre since it's like one of the most powerful chars against one of the weakest/worst(Yea I'm hating on Lee).

Has One Piece lost it's main themes? no. Has Naruto lost it's main themes? yes and if you think Sasuke is better than any of the One Piece main cast... My first point still stands stronger than ever now.

Naruto had a lot of humour at the start now you only get one joke for like 50 to 100 chapters and it's never funny(armadillo penis...).

I was talking about overall art but if you want to get into character art fine.

First off what looks so exaggerated about the main cast? they are not realistic sure but why should they? it's an art style and how is Naruto's cast not exaggerated as well?

And what about when Kishimoto messes up drawing the characters?

As for the Lee and Gaara's fight... your reasons why it's bad is because it had a powerful character going against a weak one? and you hate the weak one? that's why you think the fight is bad?

Modifié par Some Geth, 24 janvier 2012 - 10:59 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

HiroVoid wrote...
Shounen's basically completely defined by the magazine that publishes it.  Hunter x Hunter and Shingeki No Kyojin that I put are manga that I could see a lot of people easily mistaking for Seinen.  Death Note, while dark, doesn't have any sexual or grusome enough scenes that would warrant it to have be Seinen.  Of course, all manga have to do well enough in a ratings score in the manga or in sales, so I could see why people wouldn't want to risk a dark manga in shounen as much.

Sex and violence = Seinen?

I always thought it's more about maturity of the characters and plot .. (neither which requires sex or vielonce) and who it is aimed at.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...
3)Please, One Piece  just looks too exaggerated whe it comes to most of the main characters to the point where it doesn't look nice anymore.

Personally, the over-the-top faces murder dramatic impact.

The fountain of tears, glossy eyes and mouth open wide enough to swallow a boat do NOT do a good job of selling a death scene. When Ace died I couldn't stop but laugh at Luffys expression.

It does do a good job of showcasing a cartoony, light-hearted world.


Every type of art doesnt wrok well for everything.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 janvier 2012 - 09:43 .

[Clover Rider]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...
3)Please, One Piece  just looks too exaggerated whe it comes to most of the main characters to the point where it doesn't look nice anymore.

Personally, the over-the-top faces murder dramatic impact.

The fountain of tears, glossy eyes and mouth open wide enough to swallow a boat do NOT do a good job of selling a death scene. When Ace died I couldn't stop but laugh at Luffys expression.

It does do a good job of showcasing a cartoony, light-hearted world.


Every type of art doesnt wrok well for everything.

Yeah that Luffy face was bad I will give you that but still he was sort of broken, I feel Oda did try his best since we have never seen Luffy really lose big time like that. Hell when he woke up from all that what was the first thing he was doing? oh yeah bashing his head on boulders, I mean we got the point and that's good right?

And yeah One Piece is a light-hearted world, it's mainstream shonen it has bad stuff too sure, like Ace's death, even if you can't take Luffy's face serious during it, the fact he died was still serious more so since Oda does not care to kill off characters.

As for the every type of art not working for everything, good thing One Piece only has one type of art.

Modifié par Some Geth, 25 janvier 2012 - 10:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

My point was exactly that - the art (and animation) style of One pice is not a good choice for drama. Good choice for many other things - but not drama.


tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Narm

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 janvier 2012 - 10:20 .

[Clover Rider]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

My point was exactly that - the art (and animation) style of One pice is not a good choice for drama. Good choice for many other things - but not drama.


tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Narm

I think it's fine for drama, Nami, Robin and Chopper's backstories come to mind.

And do I have to show you this  again?

Modifié par Some Geth, 25 janvier 2012 - 10:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

You honestly think you can sway me with that?

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Some Geth wrote...
Has One Piece lost it's main themes? no. Has Naruto lost it's main themes? yes and if you think Sasuke is better than any of the One Piece main cast... My first point still stands stronger than ever now.

Naruto had a lot of humour at the start now you only get one joke for like 50 to 100 chapters and it's never funny(armadillo penis...).

I was talking about overall art but if you want to get into character art fine.

First off what looks so exaggerated about the main cast? they are not realistic sure but why should they? it's an art style and how is Naruto's cast not exaggerated as well?

And what about when Kishimoto messes up drawing the characters?

As for the Lee and Gaara's fight... your reasons why it's bad is because it had a powerful character going against a weak one? and you hate the weak one? that's why you think the fight is bad?

So what that it lost it's themes? It's a long series, the audience will get bored if it's the same thing again and again. I for one am glad for the change.And seriously?Sasuke?He's alrigh but he's no Pain.
On the point of humour, as I said before,humour was only a small part of Naruto and primarily used when he was young(due to his tricksterish nature)

The visual style of both world and characters just doesn't sit well with me(as with DBZ)
I mean look at this
<_<
The exaggerated features just make it worse(like Usopp's Pinnochio nose

As for theses errors you claim to be in Naruto, I can't recall seeing any if at all. You might have to be more specific.
No, I found that fight that fight rather funny because it was so predictable who would win and I was just waiting for Gaara to get serious with him. He is the most pathetic ninja in the anime(and the weirdest looking too:blink:) Not just Lee but Gai too, they're both equally bad.

But seriously stop comparing Naruto and One Piece, you stick to your show and I'll stick to mine. Whatever floats your boat as they say.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Every time I see this:



I just want to bash that face in with a hammer.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:53 .

[T764]

The stories and characters in shonen manga tend to be simpler and less developed than seinen and normally require less investment of effort to follow, hence the reason that they are so popular with commuters.
It's a broad generalization but it seems to be the most accepted definition.

I haven't seen Naruto but i have read the first few volumes of the manga and so far it's quite good actually, far better (and more mature) than i thought it would be.
I remember watching One Piece on Cartoon Network and it didn't make much of an impression, not bad or good just meh, the actual style didn't bother me i just didn't connect with the show.
I liked Dragon Ball Z when i first saw it but having watched the unedited subbed version most of the criticism it receives is valid, the Funimation version is shallow, Disneyfied and rather insulting. Anyone know if the newer Viz release of the manga is faithful to the original?

At the moment i am reading Biomega by Tsutomu Nihei and trying to track down Outlanders and Drakuun by Johji Manabe and Mobile Suit's Gundam, Zeta and Victory on DVD (That is untill i see something else i just have to read or watch)

[LPPrince]

I found a great image of Bulla/Bra from DBZ/GT in her normal form as well as every form leading up to Super Saiyan 5.

Unfortunately, it was Rule 34.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Oh internets...Oh anime....

[HiroVoid]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...
Shounen's basically completely defined by the magazine that publishes it.  Hunter x Hunter and Shingeki No Kyojin that I put are manga that I could see a lot of people easily mistaking for Seinen.  Death Note, while dark, doesn't have any sexual or grusome enough scenes that would warrant it to have be Seinen.  Of course, all manga have to do well enough in a ratings score in the manga or in sales, so I could see why people wouldn't want to risk a dark manga in shounen as much.

Sex and violence = Seinen?

I always thought it's more about maturity of the characters and plot .. (neither which requires sex or vielonce) and who it is aimed at.

Well, like I said, it competely depends on the magazine its published in.  So you can have Seinen that are pretty much the equal to a blood, guts, and sex manga while you can have Shounen like Death Note and others that focus more on story and mature characterization.

[Moondoggie]

It's very rare that i see much Seinen that has blood and guts sometimes it's just a case of more mature undertones that would be lost on kids though now and again something like Gantz pops up that likes to push the gross out scenes. Seinen is a funny demographic that includes stuff that is obviously aimed at adults and then stuff that you wouldn't think is aimed at adults like Rozen Maiden.

And an irony among western anime fandom is that Deathnote is very popular with girls when it was originally intended for young males. I guess the twilight generation took to the emo pretty boys in the anime.

[T764]

Having given it more thought i think that it's the storytelling style that seperates Shonen and Seinen, a Sienen can have a slower pace with stretches of nothing much happening whereas a Shonen will normally be straight to the point.