748 réponses à ce sujet

[PrinceLionheart]

bleetman wrote...

Oh, you thought the Illusive Man was actually on Shepard's side?

Heh.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well he knew the truth and that it was imporant to Shepard. It doesn't matter anyway because I think it is mostly bad writing. Because Shep and Liara are in a relationship anyway, so unless the job is really imporant Shep would have visited Liara first anyway. So the whole disinformation thing was useless.

Now that you've the right terminology, I do agree with you.

It strikes me that that line in particular might have been a late addition, when they decided to put Illium (and Liara) as Disc 2 content and realized they needed a reason not to visit her sooner. Given the reason for not doing so in Disc One is never overturned in Disc Two...

[Dean_the_Young]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't believe so; I'm just pointing out that it doesn't at all make a difference whether TIM lied about Liara. As we know that he does indeed lie, why would we care whether one particular statement was a deliberate lie or not?

Accuracy about other accusations, among other things.

Arguments that TIM is a habitual liar, for example, are greatly exagerated. TIM rarely lies.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well that's just semantics you know. I'd consider it a lie and so does my Shepard.

Did I say it wasn't deceptive? No.  I just find the fact that it was likely literally true while still being misleading interesting.

It is rather childish to be honest. Do you really believe that if you tricked me into believing something that is not true that I would react any different than if you lied me straight into the face?

Of course you would react differently. You're a normal person.

It may work in a soap opera mind you but I think it is the intention that counts, not how it is executed. In this case anyway.

In this case, it's utterly irrelevant: the person who decides not to check after Liara despite full ability to go anywhere in the galaxy and free reign of the operation is Shepard.

Well tbh the information that she works for the SB is just as bad as the information that she is working against the SB. Both is dangerous and something that would cause Shepard to look for her. But we don't have a choice do we? It will have to wait until after the first mission. I take it Shepard thinks that after 2 years Liara won't die within a day after Shep's return.

[BlueMagitek]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well, as TIM did literally lie about the Collector Ship, I don't see why the distinction would matter in this instance. TIM is still known to lie either way.

Hey now, the SB is listening; he's a filthy Collector ally.  

Unless you do Lair of the Shadowbroker immediately, in which case it doesn't really make any sense.

[didymos1120]

AlexXIV wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well that's just semantics you know. I'd consider it a lie and so does my Shepard.

Did I say it wasn't deceptive? No.  I just find the fact that it was likely literally true while still being misleading interesting.

It is rather childish to be honest. Do you really believe that if you tricked me into believing something that is not true that I would react any different than if you lied me straight into the face? It may work in a soap opera mind you but I think it is the intention that counts, not how it is executed. In this case anyway.

I'm not sure what the point of all this is or why you think I was implying any of that. I simply found the way he did that interesting.  That's it. I'm not trying to tell you how to feel about it, much less like it.

[Dean_the_Young]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well, as TIM did literally lie about the Collector Ship, I don't see why the distinction would matter in this instance. TIM is still known to lie either way.

Hey now, the SB is listening; he's a filthy Collector ally.  

Unless you do Lair of the Shadowbroker immediately, in which case it doesn't really make any sense.

Who says the Shadow Broker was the only one with bugs on the ship?

By TIM's own analysis, the Collector spy network is on par with the Broker. If no one else, the Collectors could have bugs as well.

[matt-bassist]

basically, if they made a game like you are suggesting OP, where you can either support cerberus, or the alliance, the game would probably be double the size with twice as much recorded dialogue, and you;'d miss out on interacting with a ton of characters because of your choices.

now, in a game like Mass Effect, that would be freaking awesome. imagine joining cerberus and, with Kai Leng, taking out the Council on the Citadel and gaining control of it for Cerberus? Would that EVER happen though? Never.

Choice is awesome, but its way to much of a headache for the developers. in the end Bioware screwed themselves so much by throwing in that suicide mission at the end. so many wasted characters who have now been put on the back burner with small cameo roles because in a lot of people's games those characters might be dead and never seen/heard, and thus Bioware would've wasted so much money.

[AlexXIV]

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well that's just semantics you know. I'd consider it a lie and so does my Shepard.

Did I say it wasn't deceptive? No.  I just find the fact that it was likely literally true while still being misleading interesting.

It is rather childish to be honest. Do you really believe that if you tricked me into believing something that is not true that I would react any different than if you lied me straight into the face? It may work in a soap opera mind you but I think it is the intention that counts, not how it is executed. In this case anyway.

I'm not sure what the point of all this is or why you think I was implying any of that. I simply found the way he did that interesting.  That's it. I'm not trying to tell you how to feel about it, much less like it.

No but I am telling you how I feel about it. Maybe that's not really interesting though.

[Dean_the_Young]

Must... not... take... blatant opening...

[BlueMagitek]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Who says the Shadow Broker was the only one with bugs on the ship?

By TIM's own analysis, the Collector spy network is on par with the Broker. If no one else, the Collectors could have bugs as well.

Well I always thought that the reason TIM continued to mislead Shepard was out of fear of the SB or Collectors somehow intercepting his orders (the Collectors through the SB), through bugs or even a potential leak in his system.  I believe TIM does give this as a reason, and it's a pretty decent one.

Eh, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the Collectors were siphoning information off the SB without his knowledge in addition to however they normally gather information.

[Dean_the_Young]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Who says the Shadow Broker was the only one with bugs on the ship?

By TIM's own analysis, the Collector spy network is on par with the Broker. If no one else, the Collectors could have bugs as well.

Well I always thought that the reason TIM continued to mislead Shepard was out of fear of the SB or Collectors somehow intercepting his orders (the Collectors through the SB), through bugs or even a potential leak in his system.  I believe TIM does give this as a reason, and it's a pretty decent one.

Pretty much what I was saying.

Even after LotSB is finished, that concern still applies.

Eh, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the Collectors were siphoning information off the SB without his knowledge in addition to however they normally gather information.

That's one way. Their own bugs would be another.

[Bail_Darilar]

Cleary you didn't play ME1. Cerberus has always been dodgy/evil/unethical. Just because we saw the nicer side of them in ME2, doesn't mean anything changedabout the organisation as a whole. Look at how expendable they saw one of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy Aria T'loak in the comics.

[AlexXIV]

Well do the Collectors know the location of the SB? I don't thinkt they knew where the base was or they just could have, you know, captured it?

[AlexXIV]

Bail_Darilar wrote...

Cleary you didn't play ME1. Cerberus has always been dodgy/evil/unethical. Just because we saw the nicer side of them in ME2, doesn't mean anything changedabout the organisation as a whole. Look at how expendable they saw one of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy Aria T'loak in the comics.

Morinth was also powerful.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well do the Collectors know the location of the SB?

Unknown.

I don't thinkt they knew where the base was or they just could have, you know, captured it?

Why?

[/filler]

To elaborate, how is the cost-benefit worth it?

[Bail_Darilar]

AlexXIV wrote...

Bail_Darilar wrote...

Cleary you didn't play ME1. Cerberus has always been dodgy/evil/unethical. Just because we saw the nicer side of them in ME2, doesn't mean anything changedabout the organisation as a whole. Look at how expendable they saw one of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy Aria T'loak in the comics.

Morinth was also powerful.

Yeah but they haven't pearsonaly attacked Morinth/Samara, where they did Aria. My point being is it doesn't matter who you are your just a means to an end for the organisation and TIM, which is why Shepard was seen as the same way no matter whether you went Renegade or Paraon on your choices.

[AlexXIV]

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LIke I said I'm done with the first bit of the arguement until ME3 where I have more information.

Never said he didn't. I just argued his likehood of betraying Shepard compared to TIM.

<_< Yeah he lied.

Well, it wasn't so much a lie as much as it was misinformation. 

Unless you consider misinformation the definition of a lie.

It's not though.

Someone used to tell me a half truth is a full lie. So yeah I consider someone misleading me on purpose a liar. Might not be the definition in a dictionary or whatever but it is the same thing to me. If someone sends you in a trap in which you die, will it matter if he lied to you or just didn't mention the trap part explicitly? You're dead in any case.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well do the Collectors know the location of the SB?

Unknown.

I don't thinkt they knew where the base was or they just could have, you know, captured it?

Why?

[/filler]

To elaborate, how is the cost-benefit worth it?

Well because it is nice to have an ally but better to have a slave I guess. They could have gotten all his info for free. And indoctrinated him maybe. I don't know but Collectors (or Reapers for that matter) are not really known for making deals if they don't have to. They take what they need.

And seeing how Shep pulled it off without the SB even warning anyone óutside of the base I guess the Collectors could have pulled it off as well. Or tried at least. Anyway, I don't think the SB would have been overly comfortable knowing that the Collectors know where he lives, so to speak. So question is how will they bug his base without knowing where it is?

Unless of course they knew it and were secretive enough to not tell him and subtle enough to leave him alone.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well because it is nice to have an ally but better to have a slave I guess. They could have gotten all his info for free.

Or they could have triggered a needless, counterproductive, and not-at-all assured war with the most powerful intelligence agency in the galaxy. Failing to capture the base, whether in battle or scuttling, could lose valuable resources forever, info that they could simply pay for otherwise. If they could overcome the Broker Army, backup contingencies, and other forces.

And indoctrinated him maybe.

Not really.

I don't know but Collectors (or Reapers for that matter) are not really known for making deals if they don't have to. They take what they need.

Making deals is exactly what the Collectors are known for.

And seeing how Shep pulled it off without the SB even warning anyone óutside of the base I guess the Collectors could have pulled it off as well. Or tried at least.

Why try in the first place when it's unnecessary to get what they want?

So question is how will they bug his base without knowing where it is?

They don't need to in order to compromise his network, so it's irrelevant.

Unless of course they knew it and were secretive enough to not tell him and subtle enough to leave him alone.

The Collectors have a profitable business with the Broker.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well because it is nice to have an ally but better to have a slave I guess. They could have gotten all his info for free.

Or they could have triggered a needless, counterproductive, and not-at-all assured war with the most powerful intelligence agency in the galaxy. Failing to capture the base, whether in battle or scuttling, could lose valuable resources forever, info that they could simply pay for otherwise. If they could overcome the Broker Army, backup contingencies, and other forces.

And indoctrinated him maybe.

Not really.

I don't know but Collectors (or Reapers for that matter) are not really known for making deals if they don't have to. They take what they need.

Making deals is exactly what the Collectors are known for.

And seeing how Shep pulled it off without the SB even warning anyone óutside of the base I guess the Collectors could have pulled it off as well. Or tried at least.

Why try in the first place when it's unnecessary to get what they want?

So question is how will they bug his base without knowing where it is?

They don't need to in order to compromise his network, so it's irrelevant.

Unless of course they knew it and were secretive enough to not tell him and subtle enough to leave him alone.

The Collectors have a profitable business with the Broker.

But they must also see him as a threat. As all intelligent organic life that is not indoctrinated.

[AlexXIV]

You know I think it a bit unlikely that they bugged the SB's network. I mean they are not that smart. They shot Shepard and the Normandy out of the Sky. Let Shepard drop on the planet and later they realize they wanted the dead body. I mean seriously they build a trap and then head off without the thing they wanted to trap just to let someone else pick it up and then try to contact whoever it was to get the thing they want back. Seriously looks like some of the genetic engineering went horribly wrong. Even if Harbinger assumed control.