748 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Let's take a look at TIM's record. While under his control cerberus has been

planting Dragon's Teeth onto out-of-the-way colony worlds to observe the effects. They were sending out Rachnai into areas garrisoned with Alliance military personnel just to observe how the Rachnai fight. They planted fake distress beacons in the middle of Thresher nests just to gather data on them, at the expense of two entire companies of soldiers. They assassinated Admiral Kohaku and threw his body into a pen filled with husks just for the hell of it. They injected the acid venom of a Maw into a marine's blood "to see what would happen."

Then of course there is Jack and all the children that died to create her.

To be fair they toned down the rampent evil in ME 2 but that was likely for the commanders benefit. Now that the Collector crisis has passed, it's back to business as usual.

Um, the rachni escaped. They weren't supposed to be sent anywhere. Also, Kahoku's body can be in with husks, creepers, or rachni.  It depends on the order you clear those bases.  And we have no idea why they put him in behind those barriers.  It may have been "just for the hell of it", but that's just an assumption.  We also don't know what they were up to with the thresher maw experiments.  Granted, I can't think of what use doing that would be, but I also don't assume that that means there wasn't any. And re: Akuze, it was 50 marines.  That's not even one company much less two. Not that it makes it better, but incorrect is incorrect.

There's also no indication that Cerberus started the Colony of the Dead incident. All ME1 gives us is that Cerberus got 'samples': nothing more, nothing less. It could have been insitgated by ExoGeni, or it could have been an indoctrination trap that Cerberus only noticed later. We have no way of knowing.

One of ME1's writing themes with Cerberus was to give virtually no context about anything they did. The why's, how's, what's were never gone into on any contextual level, and were never clarified in ME2 either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nohvarr wrote...

Here's the thing, does he really want to cure the genophage or does he see an opportunity to manipulate the Krogan by providing a cure.

Almost certainly the later... but then, that's the position of just about everyone in the galaxy besides Paragon Shepard personally.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Blacklash93 wrote...

LTiberious wrote...
Xenophobia isnt "evil". 

Well people (and the world in general) are certainly better off without it.

Define better. Why? How? For whom?

[AlexXIV]

That would be me then. I don't believe that paragon Shep's are the only ones sympathizing with the Krogans though especially seeing how they are not really known for paragon behaviour themselves.

I really don't understand where all the 'human interests' thing is comming from all the time. I mean if aliens occuppied earth and enslaved humans etc I would understand it. But humans as upstarts have been given relative freedom and stuff so I don't see where humanity is exactly threatened. So 'human interests' is nothing but a power struggle in my book. And I don't really see why a human led galaxy is automatically better than one that is led by a multi species council.

What I mean to say is that if you take 'human interests' too far it is just as 'evil' as 'reaper interests'. It counts for every race of course. I am just feeling kind of alienated (pun intended) by the notion some people make that human interests are automatically a good thing. Especially when we have a whole history book of examples why it's not.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 janvier 2012 - 02:22 .

[chengthao]

didymos1120 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Let's take a look at TIM's record. While under his control cerberus has been

planting Dragon's Teeth onto out-of-the-way colony worlds to observe the effects. They were sending out Rachnai into areas garrisoned with Alliance military personnel just to observe how the Rachnai fight. They planted fake distress beacons in the middle of Thresher nests just to gather data on them, at the expense of two entire companies of soldiers. They assassinated Admiral Kohaku and threw his body into a pen filled with husks just for the hell of it. They injected the acid venom of a Maw into a marine's blood "to see what would happen."

Then of course there is Jack and all the children that died to create her.

To be fair they toned down the rampent evil in ME 2 but that was likely for the commanders benefit. Now that the Collector crisis has passed, it's back to business as usual.

Um, the rachni escaped. They weren't supposed to be sent anywhere. Also, Kahoku's body can be in with husks, creepers, or rachni.  It depends on the order you clear those bases.  And we have no idea why they put him in behind those barriers.  It may have been "just for the hell of it", but that's just an assumption.  We also don't know what they were up to with the thresher maw experiments.  Granted, I can't think of what use doing that would be, but I also don't assume that that means there wasn't any. And re: Akuze, it was 50 marines.  That's not even one company much less two. Not that it makes it better, but incorrect is incorrect.

thats not two companies but what about Kahoku's men on Edouls? as well as Akuze, not two companies but two different units

[FERMi27]

How can such threads gain so many posts? BSN is retarding.

Side with TIM?.. Go play Sims instead. You write the scenario there yourself.

[AlexXIV]

FERMi27 wrote...

How can such threads gain so many posts? BSN is retarding.

Side with TIM?.. Go play Sims instead. You write the scenario there yourself.

Yeah I can feel it too.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

That would be me then. I don't believe that paragon Shep's are the only ones sympathizing with the Krogans though especially seeing how they are not really known for paragon behaviour themselves.

I really don't understand where all the 'human interests' thing is comming from all the time. I mean if aliens occuppied earth and enslaved humans etc I would understand it. But humans as upstarts have been given relative freedom and stuff so I don't see where humanity is exactly threatened. So 'human interests' is nothing but a power struggle in my book. And I don't really see why a human led galaxy is automatically better than one that is led by a multi species council.

What I mean to say is that if you take 'human interests' too far it is just as 'evil' as 'reaper interests'. It counts for every race of course. I am just feeling kind of alienated (pun intended) by the notion some people make that human interests are automatically a good thing. Especially when we have a whole history book of example why it's not.

Power struggles always exist. Especially in politics. Even moreso in space politics.
You're either in the dominant position, or you're being dominated.

Humanities interests are in danger by the mere existence of other species. And same goes for htem - their interests are in danger as long as we exist.

This isn't even a question if a human-led galaxy is "better". Ultimatively, it is irrelevant.

[AlexXIV]

mrsph wrote...

What exactly is BSN retarding? Growth? Fire?

Growth.

[King Minos]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

That would be me then. I don't believe that paragon Shep's are the only ones sympathizing with the Krogans though especially seeing how they are not really known for paragon behaviour themselves.

I really don't understand where all the 'human interests' thing is comming from all the time. I mean if aliens occuppied earth and enslaved humans etc I would understand it. But humans as upstarts have been given relative freedom and stuff so I don't see where humanity is exactly threatened. So 'human interests' is nothing but a power struggle in my book. And I don't really see why a human led galaxy is automatically better than one that is led by a multi species council.

What I mean to say is that if you take 'human interests' too far it is just as 'evil' as 'reaper interests'. It counts for every race of course. I am just feeling kind of alienated (pun intended) by the notion some people make that human interests are automatically a good thing. Especially when we have a whole history book of example why it's not.

Power struggles always exist. Especially in politics. Even moreso in space politics.
You're either in the dominant position, or you're being dominated.

Humanities interests are in danger by the mere existence of other species. And same goes for htem - their interests are in danger as long as we exist.

This isn't even a question if a human-led galaxy is "better". Ultimatively, it is irrelevant.

This.

Especially the bolded part.

[didymos1120]

chengthao wrote...

thats not two companies but what about Kahoku's men on Edouls? as well as Akuze, not two companies but two different units

What about them?  Cerberus lured them to their deaths.  Did you think I somehow disputed that? In any case, it has nothing to do with the error I was noting.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 janvier 2012 - 02:33 .

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

That would be me then. I don't believe that paragon Shep's are the only ones sympathizing with the Krogans though especially seeing how they are not really known for paragon behaviour themselves.

I really don't understand where all the 'human interests' thing is comming from all the time. I mean if aliens occuppied earth and enslaved humans etc I would understand it. But humans as upstarts have been given relative freedom and stuff so I don't see where humanity is exactly threatened. So 'human interests' is nothing but a power struggle in my book. And I don't really see why a human led galaxy is automatically better than one that is led by a multi species council.

What I mean to say is that if you take 'human interests' too far it is just as 'evil' as 'reaper interests'. It counts for every race of course. I am just feeling kind of alienated (pun intended) by the notion some people make that human interests are automatically a good thing. Especially when we have a whole history book of example why it's not.

Power struggles always exist. Especially in politics. Even moreso in space politics.
You're either in the dominant position, or you're being dominated.

Humanities interests are in danger by the mere existence of other species. And same goes for htem - their interests are in danger as long as we exist.

This isn't even a question if a human-led galaxy is "better". Ultimatively, it is irrelevant.

Well if someone tries to dominate us I am all for struggling against it. But first I'd have to see that. Are we just talking about having a better lever in deals, like economics or are we talking about dominating as in dictating other people/species lifestyle, culture, etc. I happen to be a liberal person you know and I think (relative) freedom is a virtue that should be kept. Meaning I would fight for freedom if it is threatened. But fighting to take away other people's or species freedom, not so much. I mean what you say is in the core true. But life is more complicated than that, especially if you let people be individuals and follow their own dreams and philosphies, etc.

[AlexXIV]

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Unless you consider misinformation the definition of a lie.

It's not though.

Someone used to tell me a half truth is a full lie. So yeah I consider someone misleading me on purpose a liar. Might not be the definition in a dictionary or whatever but it is the same thing to me. If someone sends you in a trap in which you die, will it matter if he lied to you or just didn't mention the trap part explicitly? You're dead in any case.

You said misinform, not mislead. There's a difference.

I am not a native english speaker. I don't understand the difference. Misleading information, misinformation, it is all the same to me.

[King Minos]

AlexXIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Unless you consider misinformation the definition of a lie.

It's not though.

Someone used to tell me a half truth is a full lie. So yeah I consider someone misleading me on purpose a liar. Might not be the definition in a dictionary or whatever but it is the same thing to me. If someone sends you in a trap in which you die, will it matter if he lied to you or just didn't mention the trap part explicitly? You're dead in any case.

You said misinform, not mislead. There's a difference.

I am not a native english speaker. I don't understand the difference. Misleading information, misinformation, it is all the same to me.

The lie was all in the name of science.

[Farbautisonn]

This thread is funny. All extremes are out.

Bottom line is that its an RPG. If you immerse yourself in your toon, its very possible not to see Cerberus as "evil". And its very possible to see Cerberus as the devil incarnate. All of the metagaming crap is not really relevant. All youre doing is passing judgement on eachother in a pharisaic "holier than thou" self-indignant rage of the percieved ignorance of others.

Roleplay your toon. Get into his head. See things from his/her perspective. Makes the game a whole lot more enjoyable.

[King Minos]

I see 'metagaming' floating around every now and then. What does it mean?

[AlexXIV]

King Minos wrote...

I see 'metagaming' floating around every now and then. What does it mean?

Using information for ingame decisions that you have gathered from outside the game. Aka ME3 information used to justify ME2 decisions, etc. Also counts for the books btw. because just because you can read what happened in the 2 years in which Shep was 'out of the picture' it doesn't mean Shepard knows of it as well.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 janvier 2012 - 02:56 .

[andy6915]

King Minos wrote...

I see 'metagaming' floating around every now and then. What does it mean?

http://www.urbandict...term=metagaming



1.metagaming
The act of using outside or previously gained knowledge within a gaming universe for personal gain or advantage.

2.Metagaming
A common term used in Role-Playing game that tells real life details or something that goes beyond the limits or
environment set by the game.

3.metagaming
When game information outside of what is available in a game is used to give a player an advantage in-game. Most commonly seen and frowned upon in many forms of role playing especially when consent has not been given.

4.metagaming
Predicting an opponent's decision in competitive gaming as a result of analysis of the opponent's past decisions.

Modifié par andy69156915, 22 janvier 2012 - 02:56 .

[Candidate 88766]

King Minos wrote...

I see 'metagaming' floating around every now and then. What does it mean?

Making decisions based on information your character couldn't possibly have.

For example, we know that Cerberus is a villain in ME3. We can replay ME2 with this knowledge. However, Shepard does not have this knowledge.

[OmegaBlue0231]

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Unless you consider misinformation the definition of a lie.

It's not though.

Someone used to tell me a half truth is a full lie. So yeah I consider someone misleading me on purpose a liar. Might not be the definition in a dictionary or whatever but it is the same thing to me. If someone sends you in a trap in which you die, will it matter if he lied to you or just didn't mention the trap part explicitly? You're dead in any case.

You said misinform, not mislead. There's a difference.

According to my dictonary mislead and misinform are synonyms.

*edit* I just checked it online as well to be safe and it says the same.

Modifié par OmegaBlue0231, 22 janvier 2012 - 03:08 .

[Ahglock]

 

Phaedon wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...
Those're ironic words coming from Scrooge McDuck. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

They are, in two ways. Which of the two are you referring to?

Scrooge's total moral and personal destruction from the 1920s up to meeting with his nephews in 1947, or that he tends to have hilarious fits? 

His moral and personal awesome you mean  

He is probably my favorite character and yes I loved his play it straight attitude which became a succeed at any cost attitude until he did a reversal and went back to his original system of always playing it straight.  The Don Rosa Life and Times of Scrooge Mcduck is probably my one of my favorite comic books works even if I generally prefer Barks.   

LPPrince wrote...

Cerberus has ALWAYS been evil. Always.

Kelly and the rest of the Cerb crew? They are oblivious to the true workings and motives behind Cerberus. They are left out of the loop and follow their orders blindly believing they are part of a much more benevolent organization.

Its not their fault, but they are victims just as David was, just as Kahoku was, just as the team on Akuze was, including Shepard.

And no matter what-

Akuze. Wasn't. Excused.

And they'll get everything they deserve in Mass Effect 3.

While all of this is true it does not really work with the indoctrination, working with the reapers angle.  They could have made them the enemy early in ME3.  When the reapers take over earth Cerberus could have tried to take over the alliance, cerberus fan boys could have backed them the excuse being while they may not be the best choice having someone strong and in charge fighting the reapers is better than the indecisive denyers in the alliance,  Hell Cerberus might even think they are doing the right thing in that it would make the alliance stronger and more capable at defeating the reapers.  

Or Shepard could back the allaince and throw out cerberus under the theory the short term gains form having cerberus at the front is not worth the problems you would have gaining allies with cerberus in charge.

 You get to resolve the Cerberus issue, they can be bad or good depending on how you want to play it and it makes some degree of sense.  Indocntrination working with the reapers does not work out well and it just a cop out to make them a generic bad guy.  Though they reminded me of Cobra in ME2 so generic bad guy is kind of their thing.  

Modifié par Ahglock, 22 janvier 2012 - 03:25 .

[KingDan97]

Okay, so I see this thread has decided not to die and while I(personally) am not surprised to see Cerberus as the villain once again(I mean, teaming up with a former enemy solely to complete one goal is something that's been done over and over again throughout fiction), but either way I'm gonna go ahead and put out a theory on why exactly Cerberus(more specifically TIM, but if he controls all of Cerberus it really covers all of Cerberus).

In Mass Effect Evolution we learned that TIM's eyes are a result of tangential reaper tech exposure and that as a result of this he hears whispers of the reapers. During a period where Sovereign was the only Reaper within the galaxy, and was inactive.

I posit that TIM's level of indoctrination is directly based on the potency of Reapers within the galaxy, which is something that would be dependent on 2 factors, number of reapers in the galaxy and whether they are active or inactive. During ME1 we come across multiple different Cerberus projects based around building an army, be it of thorian creepers or rachni, a subtle series of suggestions from the only reaper in the galaxy while he's active. In ME2 there's no active reapers in the galaxy so he seeks to actively destory them. In ME3 the galaxy is full of reapers and because of the way indoctrination works TIM is convinced that he can control the reapers, which(Oh so coincidentally) coincides with the Reapers plans of killing Shepard.

Is this a copacetic explanation for all parties involved?

Modifié par KingDan97, 22 janvier 2012 - 03:39 .