748 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

Probably not.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if someone tries to dominate us I am all for struggling against it. But first I'd have to see that. Are we just talking about having a better lever in deals, like economics or are we talking about dominating as in dictating other people/species lifestyle, culture, etc. I happen to be a liberal person you know and I think (relative) freedom is a virtue that should be kept. Meaning I would fight for freedom if it is threatened. But fighting to take away other people's or species freedom, not so much. I mean what you say is in the core true. But life is more complicated than that, especially if you let people be individuals and follow their own dreams and philosphies, etc.

Domination does not exist in a one-type vacuum.
Economical, military, cultural, political domination, etc - they are all used. Even today, in our own world.
Not all pressure is of a direct and open kind. Soft pressure is actually far more active in the world, but a lot less visible.

And cultural domination is as much of a bad thing for a nation is direct hostile takeover.

[Homebound]

lololol cerberus IS evil. If bioware makes cerberus so, then they simply are. you cant fight word-of-god canon.

[OmegaBlue0231]

KingDan97 wrote...

Okay, so I see this thread has decided not to die and while I(personally) am not surprised to see Cerberus as the villain once again(I mean, teaming up with a former enemy solely to complete one goal is something that's been done over and over again throughout fiction), but either way I'm gonna go ahead and put out a theory on why exactly Cerberus(more specifically TIM, but if he controls all of Cerberus it really covers all of Cerberus).

In Mass Effect Evolution we learned that TIM's eyes are a result of tangential reaper tech exposure and that as a result of this he hears whispers of the reapers. During a period where Sovereign was the only Reaper within the galaxy, and was inactive.

I posit that TIM's level of indoctrination is directly based on the potency of Reapers within the galaxy, which is something that would be dependent on 2 factors, number of reapers in the galaxy and whether they are active or inactive. During ME1 we come across multiple different Cerberus projects based around building an army, be it of thorian creepers or rachni, a subtle series of suggestions from the only reaper in the galaxy while he's active. In ME2 there's no active reapers in the galaxy so he seeks to actively destory them. In ME3 the galaxy is full of reapers and because of the way indoctrination works TIM is convinced that he can control the reapers, which(Oh so coincidentally) coincides with the Reapers plans of killing Shepard.

Is this a copacetic explanation for all parties involved?

Great theory, I like it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KingDan97 wrote...
In Mass Effect Evolution we learned that TIM's eyes are a result of tangential reaper tech exposure and that as a result of this he hears whispers of the reapers. During a period where Sovereign was the only Reaper within the galaxy, and was inactive.

I posit that TIM's level of indoctrination is directly based on the potency of Reapers within the galaxy, which is something that would be dependent on 2 factors, number of reapers in the galaxy and whether they are active or inactive. During ME1 we come across multiple different Cerberus projects based around building an army, be it of thorian creepers or rachni, a subtle series of suggestions from the only reaper in the galaxy while he's active. In ME2 there's no active reapers in the galaxy so he seeks to actively destory them. In ME3 the galaxy is full of reapers and because of the way indoctrination works TIM is convinced that he can control the reapers, which(Oh so coincidentally) coincides with the Reapers plans of killing Shepard.

Is this a copacetic explanation for all parties involved?

Quiantum Entanglement. Reapers use it everywhere. I don't see how distance is any obstable to repaers talking to TIM.

the only difference would be brining more indoctrination devices to bear (since those seem to have a SHORT range)
either way, if TIM eyes were indoctrinating tech, he would have succumbed by now.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hellbound555 wrote...

lololol cerberus IS evil. If bioware makes cerberus so, then they simply are. you cant fight word-of-god canon.

I can fight the "god's" definition of evil and his writing/presentation skills.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well if someone tries to dominate us I am all for struggling against it. But first I'd have to see that. Are we just talking about having a better lever in deals, like economics or are we talking about dominating as in dictating other people/species lifestyle, culture, etc. I happen to be a liberal person you know and I think (relative) freedom is a virtue that should be kept. Meaning I would fight for freedom if it is threatened. But fighting to take away other people's or species freedom, not so much. I mean what you say is in the core true. But life is more complicated than that, especially if you let people be individuals and follow their own dreams and philosphies, etc.

Domination does not exist in a one-type vacuum.
Economical, military, cultural, political domination, etc - they are all used. Even today, in our own world.
Not all pressure is of a direct and open kind. Soft pressure is actually far more active in the world, but a lot less visible.

And cultural domination is as much of a bad thing for a nation is direct hostile takeover.

Well at least we agree that a hostile takeover is a bad thing.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Luc0s wrote...

gogman25 wrote...

So, you're having ME2 nostalgia and want to work with the xenophobes again because you're convinced they're the good guys? Maybe there is too much emphasis on them rather than other evil guys, but they're still evil.

*sight*

Here we go again, with the "Cerberus = evil lolololol" bullcrap. ;


Cerberus is not evil. "Evil" is only a matter of perspective. What is evil in the eyes of person X might not be evil in the eyes of person Y.

I could say the same thing about any number of versions of well known villains in pop culture ranging from the Joker, Lex Luther, Cobra Commander, Megatron, Norman Osborne, Dr. Doom, and Magento that still doesn't make them heroes.  

[KingDan97]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...
In Mass Effect Evolution we learned that TIM's eyes are a result of tangential reaper tech exposure and that as a result of this he hears whispers of the reapers. During a period where Sovereign was the only Reaper within the galaxy, and was inactive.

I posit that TIM's level of indoctrination is directly based on the potency of Reapers within the galaxy, which is something that would be dependent on 2 factors, number of reapers in the galaxy and whether they are active or inactive. During ME1 we come across multiple different Cerberus projects based around building an army, be it of thorian creepers or rachni, a subtle series of suggestions from the only reaper in the galaxy while he's active. In ME2 there's no active reapers in the galaxy so he seeks to actively destory them. In ME3 the galaxy is full of reapers and because of the way indoctrination works TIM is convinced that he can control the reapers, which(Oh so coincidentally) coincides with the Reapers plans of killing Shepard.

Is this a copacetic explanation for all parties involved?

Quiantum Entanglement. Reapers use it everywhere. I don't see how distance is any obstable to repaers talking to TIM.

the only difference would be brining more indoctrination devices to bear (since those seem to have a SHORT range)
either way, if TIM eyes were indoctrinating tech, he would have succumbed by now.

Well it's a pretty clear policy that all reaper tech indoctrinates until proven otherwise(mass relays notwithstanding).

As for why it wouldn't have overtaken TIM's body that particular device might not have been made to that end, as it was meant to indoctrinate through direct contact, something TIM didn't acchieve. In almost all other cases of physical indoctrination(Husks, collectors, Turian priests) it was a complete physical overtake and in the case of purely mental indoctrination(Kensen, Benezia) they were never away from their indoctrination conduit for extended periods of time if at all.

TIM is is a very unique case, he's the only non-fully physically indoctrinated being we've seen, and he also hasn't had significant time near any direct indoctrination tech(reapers, indoctrination points like Object Rho) so I don't think normal rules apply. His eyes also must be indoctrination because how else would he hear the reaper whispers?

[AlexXIV]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

gogman25 wrote...

So, you're having ME2 nostalgia and want to work with the xenophobes again because you're convinced they're the good guys? Maybe there is too much emphasis on them rather than other evil guys, but they're still evil.

*sight*

Here we go again, with the "Cerberus = evil lolololol" bullcrap. ;


Cerberus is not evil. "Evil" is only a matter of perspective. What is evil in the eyes of person X might not be evil in the eyes of person Y.

I could say the same thing about any number of versions of well known villains in pop culture ranging from the Joker, Lex Luther, Cobra Commander, Megatron, Norman Osborne, Dr. Doom, and Magento that still doesn't make them heroes.  

Because the world is not black and white. Unless you try to paint it as such which is an injustice in itself.

[Eyerock]

Bioware havs in general done a decent job of portraying the worlds in their games with "shades of grey", so I seriously doubt we will see cerberus as nothing but mustache-twirling goonies.
I agree that they have gone out of their way to portray cerberus as the bad guys in their ME3 marketing, but maybe that's the point.
Going in to ME3 we will all be convinced that they're nothing but scum and hellspawns, but as the story unravels we will hopefully get to see a different side of Cerberus, and hopefully a big "twist". Who knows,TIM might turn out to be the Saren or Loghain of this game.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

AlexXIV wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

gogman25 wrote...

So, you're having ME2 nostalgia and want to work with the xenophobes again because you're convinced they're the good guys? Maybe there is too much emphasis on them rather than other evil guys, but they're still evil.

*sight*

Here we go again, with the "Cerberus = evil lolololol" bullcrap. ;


Cerberus is not evil. "Evil" is only a matter of perspective. What is evil in the eyes of person X might not be evil in the eyes of person Y.

I could say the same thing about any number of versions of well known villains in pop culture ranging from the Joker, Lex Luther, Cobra Commander, Megatron, Norman Osborne, Dr. Doom, and Magneto that still doesn't make them heroes.  

Because the world is not black and white. Unless you try to paint it as such which is an injustice in itself.

True, but actions have consequences and those matter to me more that a character's past or their past ideology.
 
Like Megatron who in the IDW comic book universe has been shown that before he came the leader of the Decepticons he was a miner who was also a political activist who preached non-violence
and thought Cybertron's caste system was unjust.He got arrested because a friend of his (who later became an Autobot) got in a bar fight and injured some cops and was beaten up in custody.

Orion Pax (who later became Optimus Prime) freed Megatron and arrested the cop that beat him and even agreed with him and even quoted Megatron's speech when he went before the corrupt Cybertronian Senate.

But I lose all support and sympanthy for Meagtron once he killed a senator, became an underground gladiator which allowed him to build his army the Decepticons and then went to kill trillions of aliens so he could win a war that most of them never knew about and millions of humans so he have a new homeworld.

[MAZ77]

Eyerock wrote...

Who knows,TIM might turn out to be the Saren or Loghain of this game.

You have no idea how right you are .

[Ahglock]

AlexXIV wrote...


Because the world is not black and white. Unless you try to paint it as such which is an injustice in itself.

A lot of things are a lot more black and white than you seem to imply.  Yeah villain X might be complex and have interesting motivations for why he became villain X.  But some things are just plain evil and villain X was doing it whther or not he has a complex background does not chnage that.  

[Calibration Master]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

gogman25 wrote...

So, you're having ME2 nostalgia and want to work with the xenophobes again because you're convinced they're the good guys? Maybe there is too much emphasis on them rather than other evil guys, but they're still evil.

*sight*

Here we go again, with the "Cerberus = evil lolololol" bullcrap. ;


Cerberus is not evil. "Evil" is only a matter of perspective. What is evil in the eyes of person X might not be evil in the eyes of person Y.

I could say the same thing about any number of versions of well known villains in pop culture ranging from the Joker, Lex Luther, Cobra Commander, Megatron, Norman Osborne, Dr. Doom, and Magento that still doesn't make them heroes.  

The Joker, Luther, Cobra, Megatron, etc. etc. etc. are all comic-book villians. They are all card-carrying villians.

Is TIM a card-carrying villian? Do you want him to be a card-carrying villian?


Mass Effect is not a comic-book (well there are Mass Effect graphic-novels but that's besides the point). Mass Effect is not black-and-white. It goes deeper than your typical card-carrying villian versus your typical lawful-good hero.

[MAZ77]

Calibration Master wrote...

Mass Effect is not a comic-book (well there are Mass Effect graphic-novels but that's besides the point). Mass Effect is not black-and-white. It goes deeper than your typical card-carrying villian versus your typical lawful-good hero.

I am not sure, whether we are talking about the same game or not...or am I getting you wrong? 

[JamieCOTC]

TIM And Cerberus were never the good guys ... unless you wanted them to be.

And that's what I love about Cerberus and the IM ... Are they good? Are they evil? Can you trust them? - Mac Walters #MorallyAmbiguous

https://twitter.com/...073217770528768

[LPPrince]

Morally Ambiguous my butt.

[Calibration Master]

Ahglock wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Because the world is not black and white. Unless you try to paint it as such which is an injustice in itself.

A lot of things are a lot more black and white than you seem to imply.  Yeah villain X might be complex and have interesting motivations for why he became villain X.  But some things are just plain evil and villain X was doing it whther or not he has a complex background does not chnage that.  

Even if the action in itself is evil, it does not mean the motivation or the person behind the action is evil. I do not believe evil people exist in real-life. Evil actions exist in real-life. But evil people only exist within novels and comic books.

So what about TIM? Well, I don't think TIM's motivations are evil. He truly believes that what he is doing is for the greated good of humanity.

[Calibration Master]

MAZ77 wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

Mass Effect is not a comic-book (well there are Mass Effect graphic-novels but that's besides the point). Mass Effect is not black-and-white. It goes deeper than your typical card-carrying villian versus your typical lawful-good hero.

I am not sure, whether we are talking about the same game or not...or am I getting you wrong? 

I don't know?

What I simply tried to say is that you can't compare TIM to your typical comic-book villains. Mass Effect is more complex than that. TIM is more complex than that. He's not a card-carrying villian. Neither is Shepard a lawful-good hero (unless you play 100% pure Paragon, maybe then you could say Shepard is a lawful-good hero).

Modifié par Calibration Master, 22 janvier 2012 - 06:18 .

[MAZ77]

Calibration Master wrote...

What I simply tried to say is that you can't compare TIM to your typical comic-book villains. Mass Effect is more complex than that. TIM is more complex than that. He's not a card-carrying villian. Neither is Shepard a lawful-good hero (unless you play 100% pure Paragon, maybe then you could say Shepard is a lawful-good hero).

I understand you did not read the spoiler sites, then.

[MAZ77]

JamieCOTC wrote...

TIM And Cerberus were never the good guys ... unless you wanted them to be.

And that's what I love about Cerberus and the IM ... Are they good? Are they evil? Can you trust them? - Mac Walters #MorallyAmbiguous

https://twitter.com/...073217770528768

I don't believe a single word that comes out of this man's mouth anymore.

Modifié par MAZ77, 22 janvier 2012 - 06:25 .

[Merchant2006]

Giving TIM the Collector Base is the equivalent of giving Hitler the blueprints to nuclear weapons before the Americans/Russians develop it.

Right, because TIM isn't a pro-human space nartzi, he's 'morally grey'. Bahahaha.

Modifié par Merchant2006, 22 janvier 2012 - 06:25 .

[Heimdall]

Not the embodiment of evil is not the same as being morally ambiguous. TIM may not be you're typical comic book villain but then neither was Saren and I think most could agree that Saren was bad news.