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Bioware needs to get off there "Lololol Cerberus is Evil" High horse(Spoilers)


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#501
LPPrince

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MAZ77 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

TIM And Cerberus were never the good guys ... unless you wanted them to be.

And that's what I love about Cerberus and the IM ... Are they good? Are they evil? Can you trust them? - Mac Walters #MorallyAmbiguous

https://twitter.com/...073217770528768




I don't believe a single word that comes out of this man's mouth anymore.




If Tali read that tweet, her response to Mac would be simple.

Tali to Daro'Xen-"You're insane."

Modifié par LPPrince, 22 janvier 2012 - 06:27 .


#502
GamerrangerX

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Alanosborn1991 wrote...

>>>In b4 Lollololl Cerberus fanboy<<<

I dont know why Bioware wants to make Cerberus and Reapers the only enemys in Mass Effect 3 it seems.

To me this series is about choice. Am I mistaken?

In Mass Effect 2 you could support Cerberus is several ways

-Keep Collector Base (Make own Reapers, learn how to control Reapers?)
-Give Legion to Cerberus (Probably to learn more about how to control the Geth)
-Keep David in Atlas Station for study on how to control the Geth
-Support Illusive Man but never officially (Heaven forbid Shephard actually makes decisons on who to side with, less it confuse the 10 yr old Gears of War, COD gamer)
-Others I forgot

But now it seems the Illusive Man just wants to throw Shephard out the window, saying he doesnt need him/her anymore.

Yet the Illusive Man brought Shephard back, gave him/her the Normandy back and agrees that if they lose Shephard humanity will follow.

So why does he throw Shephard away? Why cant we contact the Illusive Man and work with him? Take Mass Effect 3 in a different direction?

Being a Renegade means stopping the Reapers at any cost. Shephard even says this but I guess working with Cerberus again even though he was in all of ME2 is too high of a cost?

Im no writer but lets say it goes like this.

After Shep leaves Earth a Shep who has supported TIM in the past should be contacted by TIM in the Table room place.

TIM says how they found the Prothean Artifact on Mars that will help stop the Reapers. Unfortunatly going along with this will mean instead of Cerberus hounding Shephard it will be the Alliance!

Liara, VS, Anderson, Hackett and all Alliance forces will be enemys from now on. Instead of Liara we get Kai Leng as a squadmate and your job for the rest of ME3 is to gather everyone around Cerberus's plan.

I hope this option is in ME3 if not it will be a huge missed opportuninity.

What do you guys think?

Also Im neither pro Cerberus or pro Alliance I am pro choice. I have around 13 Shephards waiting to be imported in ME3 =D


im half Ren/Par and i give Ceberus the base and i will do it AGAIN but i did not give legion to Ceberus,i free David in Atlas Station,the point is TIM is INDOCTRINATED so lets do the math,TIM+CEBERUS=Good  TIM+INDOCTRINATION+CEBERUS=Very BAD

Modifié par GamerrangerX, 22 janvier 2012 - 06:33 .


#503
Guest_mrsph_*

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One as strong willed as the Illusive Man cannot be indoctrinated by a machine. In fact, the last time the Reapers tried to indoctrinate him they failed and he got cool glowy eyes.

When a turian (inferior race) named Saren (traitor) tried the same thing he ended up indoctrinated and converted into a Reaper slave.

#504
Lotion Soronarr

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[quote]KingDan97 wrote...
Well it's a pretty clear policy that all reaper tech indoctrinates until proven otherwise(mass relays notwithstanding).[/quoe]

Who set up that policy? Because it's obviously garbage.

Indoctrination is the work of very specific devices (makes sense, devices are purpose-built..guns dont' make toast)


[quote]
TIM is is a very unique case, he's the only non-fully physically indoctrinated being we've seen, and he also hasn't had significant time near any direct indoctrination tech(reapers, indoctrination points like Object Rho) so I don't think normal rules apply. His eyes also must be indoctrination because how else would he hear the reaper whispers?
[/quote]

Communication is not the same as indoctrination.

#505
Lotion Soronarr

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Eyerock wrote...

Bioware havs in general done a decent job of portraying the worlds in their games with "shades of grey", so I seriously doubt we will see cerberus as nothing but mustache-twirling goonies.



No, not really. They're not as good at it as you might think. They'restill incredibly anvillicious and non-subtle.
David anyone?

#506
Lotion Soronarr

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Ahglock wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Because the world is not black and white. Unless you try to paint it as such which is an injustice in itself.


A lot of things are a lot more black and white than you seem to imply.  Yeah villain X might be complex and have interesting motivations for why he became villain X.  But some things are just plain evil and villain X was doing it whther or not he has a complex background does not chnage that. 


Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?

#507
jaza

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PPF65 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Cerberus has ALWAYS been evil. Always.

Kelly and the rest of the Cerb crew? They are oblivious to the true workings and motives behind Cerberus. They are left out of the loop and follow their orders blindly believing they are part of a much more benevolent organization.

Its not their fault, but they are victims just as David was, just as Kahoku was, just as the team on Akuze was, including Shepard.

And no matter what-

Akuze. Wasn't. Excused.

And they'll get everything they deserve in Mass Effect 3.


Very much this. Oh, also, arming the leader of a terrorist organization with the most advanced tech known in all the galaxy is stupidity in a very pure form. That is why giving TIM the Collector base is the wrong idea. No one knows 100% WHAT he's going to do with it, but "nothing good" is a solid guess.


And I presume fighting the Reapers with nothing but blind hope and happy thoughts is better than keeping the base?

Going off topic for a brief moment, what is stopping us from simply taking the base back?

#508
Heimdall

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Because the world is not black and white. Unless you try to paint it as such which is an injustice in itself.


A lot of things are a lot more black and white than you seem to imply.  Yeah villain X might be complex and have interesting motivations for why he became villain X.  But some things are just plain evil and villain X was doing it whther or not he has a complex background does not chnage that. 


Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?

Only if one accepts that there is no other way.

#509
Savber100

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So Cerberus attacks your character and that means they're evil? Not in my books...

Honestly, Cerberus is doing what my pro-Renegade would love... Their paranoia against my Shep doesn't mean they're suddenly evil. -_-

Too many people think in such black and white terms... "OOOHHH THEY ATTACKED SHEPARD AS THE REAPER COMETH! THEY MUST BE EVUL!"

As said, Cerberus is paranoid and untrusting... Exactly w3hat a Renegade Shepard would expect and likes.... :P

Modifié par Savber100, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:07 .


#510
Neverwinter_Knight77

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Cerberus murdered innocent marines, including a rear admiral.  Case closed.

#511
JamieCOTC

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MAZ77 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

TIM And Cerberus were never the good guys ... unless you wanted them to be.

And that's what I love about Cerberus and the IM ... Are they good? Are they evil? Can you trust them? - Mac Walters #MorallyAmbiguous

https://twitter.com/...073217770528768




I don't believe a single word that comes out of this man's mouth anymore.




LOL.  Personally, I never got the feeling that TIM was ever anything more than a villain.  Even in my pro-human full throttle renegade playthroughs, he was the bad guy.

#512
AlexXIV

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I am not sure that evil exists. I'd have to lie if I said evil people don't exist. Not because they exist, but because I don't know. It seems in modern psychology the term evil does not exist. Though it is hard to believe if you see how some people commit the worst crimes without the least remorse. I think however that one should at least investigate thoroughly before passing judgement prematurely. I don't doubt that TIM is responsible for crimes bad enough that he deserves death. And probably many others in Cerberus too. But I give him benefit of doubt that he actually thinks he is doing the right thing. Which doesn't make it right. But which makes TIM a person who may at some point see reason.

#513
Ahglock

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Because the world is not black and white. Unless you try to paint it as such which is an injustice in itself.


A lot of things are a lot more black and white than you seem to imply.  Yeah villain X might be complex and have interesting motivations for why he became villain X.  But some things are just plain evil and villain X was doing it whther or not he has a complex background does not chnage that. 


Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?


Sure and if everything in life and in this game were actually like that you might have a point.  But no there are poeple who are freaking evil who do evil for only one reason because they like it or they want power or a wide range of other reasons that don't have a save the day excuse in the background.  While not everything is black and white, there actually is quite a lot of black and white out there.

 People delude themselves into thinking everything in reality has some deep moral compelxity, lots of times it just doens't.  If you are talking about broad concpets like a country or whether a person is totally evil yeah you can find shades of greay and good things in them, but that is not the same thing as noting that X person is evil overall.

 And in ME I'm sorry Cerebus is combic book evil, there isn't any moral complexity past what Cobra Commander provides,(And just so people know even he had superifcial complextiy like Tim does) ME2 seemed to take the comic book villany to all new heights in the darker chapter but hey I like comics so I don't have a problem with it.  

#514
Dragoonlordz

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 (Major possible spoilers in my opinion on TiM, the Reapers and ME3)



Heres my theory on TiM, he was indoctrinated and altered in which was meant to have done what Saren in the end did. However while going about doing the Reaper business he came across/passed through a star system that has some unique properties (maybe gravitational fields or solar activity) that blocked their control while there.

He managed to regain control as long as stayed in orbit in that system and from there began researching ways to break free of their control and influence which would allow him to leave without being hunted down or letting them know he still lives. That is what all Cerberus experiments where about imho, he cant leave the system without either breaking free 100% or wiping out Reapers because he will be killed if found out still alive.

Reapers took over Saren because TiM had vanished from their control and radar. That is why TiM brought Shepard back to be his puppet, TiM had changed his long term goal to destroy the Reapers (his former masters) rather than just break control they have if left system and for that his goal became using information he knew from working with Reapers, he knew about collector base and where Reapers were being made, the derelict ships and such and thought if could get that Reaper manufacturing station then make his own to destroy his former masters (maybe even enslave the glaxy afterwords).

Shepard was being influenced even if not controlled by a chip implanted while recreated. Because it was only influence and not control Shepard remained able to disagree and argue with TiM but as shown nothing you say or do in ME2 changes fact you did everything (major) TiM wanted you to do up until went through Omega 4 relay. Once going through that or due to the make up of the system came out in being massive black holes and gravity, it broke the influence TiM had via implant which is why thats the only time you actually make a clear decision to keep or destroy base.

TiM will continue to help Shepard through ME3 imho because his overall goal hasnt changed and that is to destroy his prior masters and will allow him to leave system hiding in. However once Shepard does that TiM has every intention of killing Shepard when finally leaves the system he been hiding in to escape being found by his former masters.

By the end of ME3 I think Shepard will go to Mars find prothian information about how to seperate or free prothians (collectors) from Reaper control. When that happens due to prothians knowing fair amount prior to being indoctrinated and changed on top of everything they have learned while being controlled including access to the advanced technology used by the Reapers from building Reaper ships for thousands of years including own technology have (collectors/prothian technology) as well . They know how to defeat the Reapers and have the technology/firepower on even terms to them (Reapers) to do so once free from being controlled. They will turn on Reapers and insure victory against them in ME3.

TiM will finally be able to leave his hiding place and Shepard imho probably right at end would not have forgotten about TiM and tracked him down so when TiM comes out Shepard is waiting and will get choice of how to deal with TiM.


(end of possible spoilers and this is all speculation but makes most sense to me)


Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:28 .


#515
GodWood

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

 (Major possible spoilers in my opinion on TiM, the Reapers and ME3)



Heres my theory on TiM, he was indoctrinated and altered in which was meant to have done what Saren in the end did. However while going about doing the Reaper business he came across/passed through a star system that has some unique properties (maybe gravitational fields or solar activity) that blocked their control while there.

He managed to regain control as long as stayed in orbit in that system and from there began researching ways to break free of their control and influence which would allow him to leave without being hunted down or letting them know he still lives. That is what all Cerberus experiments where about imho, he cant leave the system without either breaking free 100% or wiping out Reapers because he will be killed if found out still alive.

Reapers took over Saren because TiM had vanished from their control and radar. That is why TiM brought Shepard back to be his puppet, TiM had changed his long term goal to destroy the Reapers (his former masters) rather than just break control they have if left system and for that his goal became using information he knew from working with Reapers, he knew about collector base and where Reapers were being made, the derelict ships and such and thought if could get that Reaper manufacturing station then make his own to destroy his former masters (maybe even enslave the glaxy afterwords).

Shepard was being influenced even if not controlled by a chip implanted while recreated. Because it was only influence and not control Shepard remained able to disagree and argue with TiM but as shown nothing you say or do in ME2 changes fact you did everything (major) TiM wanted you to do up until went through Omega 4 relay. Once going through that or due to the make up of the system came out in being massive black holes and gravity, it broke the influence TiM had via implant which is why thats the only time you actually make a clear decision to keep or destroy base.

TiM will continue to help Shepard through ME3 imho because his overall goal hasnt changed and that is to destroy his prior masters and will allow him to leave system hiding in. However once Shepard does that TiM has every intention of killing Shepard when finally leaves the system he been hiding in to escape being found by his former masters.

By the end of ME3 I think Shepard will go to Mars find prothian information about how to seperate or free prothians (collectors) from Reaper control. When that happens due to prothians knowing fair amount prior to being indoctrinated and changed on top of everything they have learned while being controlled including access to the advanced technology used by the Reapers from building Reaper ships for thousands of years including own technology have (collectors/prothian technology) as well . They know how to defeat the Reapers and have the technology/firepower on even terms to them (Reapers) to do so once free from being controlled. They will turn on Reapers and insure victory against them in ME3.

TiM will finally be able to leave his hiding place and Shepard imho probably right at end would not have forgotten about TiM and tracked him down so when TiM comes out Shepard is waiting and will get choice of how to deal with TiM.


(end of possible spoilers and this is all speculation but makes most sense to me)

No.

#516
Dragoonlordz

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GodWood wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

(Major possible spoilers in my opinion on TiM, the Reapers and ME3)

-snip-

(end of possible spoilers and this is all speculation but makes most sense to me)


No.


We will see. :P

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:36 .


#517
GodWood

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Have you read the script/spoilers?

#518
Dragoonlordz

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GodWood wrote...

Have you read the script/spoilers?


Script spoilers are/were not indicitive of final gameplay.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:39 .


#519
GodWood

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lewlz

#520
Calibration Master

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Have you read the script/spoilers?


Script spoilers are/were not indicitive of final gameplay.


That's what they say.... but so far, what we've seen from ME3 in screenshots, videos and trailers, are exactly like the leaked script.

So far, I've seen no footage or screenshots from ME3 that contradict the leaked script.

#521
Calibration Master

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MAZ77 wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

What I simply tried to say is that you can't compare TIM to your typical comic-book villains. Mass Effect is more complex than that. TIM is more complex than that. He's not a card-carrying villian. Neither is Shepard a lawful-good hero (unless you play 100% pure Paragon, maybe then you could say Shepard is a lawful-good hero).




I understand you did not read the spoiler sites, then.




I did read the leaked script (the 2nd version) myself. But it seems you didn't.

Modifié par Calibration Master, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:48 .


#522
Calibration Master

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Merchant2006 wrote...

Giving TIM the Collector Base is the equivalent of giving Hitler the blueprints to nuclear weapons before the Americans/Russians develop it.

Right, because TIM isn't a pro-human space nartzi, he's 'morally grey'. Bahahaha.


Ahhhh, Godwin's law. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later in this thread.

Modifié par Calibration Master, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:52 .


#523
Guest_mrsph_*

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I'm impressed. It took 21 pages for Hitler to be brought in.

#524
Dragoonlordz

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Calibration Master wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Have you read the script/spoilers?


Script spoilers are/were not indicitive of final gameplay.


That's what they say.... but so far, what we've seen from ME3 in screenshots, videos and trailers, are exactly like the leaked script.

So far, I've seen no footage or screenshots from ME3 that contradict the leaked script.


I am choosing to believe them when say it was such early draft and more along lines of ideas that they may take parts from or none at all. Even if there are some difference in what I think will happen and what will actually happen, I think broadly I won't be too far off overall. 

Thats my theory and I think I will stick to it until I have completed ME3 though. :D

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:54 .


#525
Calibration Master

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mrsph wrote...

I'm impressed. It took 21 pages for Hitler to be brought in.


20 pages actually.