748 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Calibration Master wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Have you read the script/spoilers?

Script spoilers are/were not indicitive of final gameplay.

That's what they say.... but so far, what we've seen from ME3 in screenshots, videos and trailers, are exactly like the leaked script.

So far, I've seen no footage or screenshots from ME3 that contradict the leaked script.

There were Biodrones saying there wasn't going to be multiplayer right to the bitter end when magazines and such had featured articles on it too.

The leaks describe what's been shown on Mars, Sur'Kesh and Rannoch to a T.

[Burdokva]

Mesina2 wrote...

Oleg Petrovsky.


Enough said.

Citing a random Slavic name as proof of Cerberus' xenophobia and being "evil"? Seriously?! 


Oh, the sad irony...

[Seboist]

Calibration Master wrote...

Merchant2006 wrote...

Giving TIM the Collector Base is the equivalent of giving Hitler the blueprints to nuclear weapons before the Americans/Russians develop it.

Right, because TIM isn't a pro-human space nartzi, he's 'morally grey'. Bahahaha.

Ahhhh, Godwin's law. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later in this thread.

To be fair, the ME2 docs refer to Cerberus as "space nazis" and ME3 has a line where they make an unsubtle comparison between TIM and everyone's favorite Fuhrer.

[Calibration Master]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I am choosing to believe them when say it was such early draft and more along lines of ideas that they may take parts from or none at all. Even if there are some difference in what I think will happen and what will actually happen, I think broadly I won't be too far off overall. 

Thats my theory and I think I will stick to it until I have completd ME3 though. 

Yeah because early drafts contain complete mission discriptions, cutscene discriptions and complete logs lines said by characters during conversations. /sarcasm

We'll see when ME3 comes out. But I wouldn't be surprised if the final game is at least 90% the same as the latest leaked script.

Modifié par Calibration Master, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:57 .

[Calibration Master]

Seboist wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

Merchant2006 wrote...

Giving TIM the Collector Base is the equivalent of giving Hitler the blueprints to nuclear weapons before the Americans/Russians develop it.

Right, because TIM isn't a pro-human space nartzi, he's 'morally grey'. Bahahaha.

Ahhhh, Godwin's law. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later in this thread.

To be fair, the ME2 docs refer to Cerberus as "space nazis" and ME3 has a line where they make an unsubtle comparison between TIM and everyone's favorite Fuhrer.

Which makes me wonder who the hell was in charge of writing that script... <_<

Well, of course I could try to defend Cerberus and say that national-socialism is not always evil or bad, but I'm afraid most people on this forum will be intolerant of such views. I'll probably get the "Cerberus defend squad" label sticked on my head and people will probably think I'm a facist or a racist (which I'm not by the way).

Modifié par Calibration Master, 22 janvier 2012 - 08:07 .

[BlueMagitek]

Reading the Wiki, Oleg seems like a decent guy.

[King Minos]

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Cerberus murdered innocent marines, including a rear admiral.  Case closed.

For science.

[JGray]

Opinions about Cerberus aside, giving the base to TIM always seemed stupid to me for one simple reason: there's Reaper tech there. So far, everything Shepard's seen says exposure to Reaper tech leads to indoctrination and there's no avoiding it.

* Saren was indocrinated by Sovereign. As was Benezia and anyone who worked for Saren for any length of time, including Salarian special ops prisoners.

* In Mass Effect, Shepard came across multiple instances of miners or scientists randomly finding a Dragon's Tooth. It always ended with the miners/scientists impailing themselves upon the spikes and turning themselves into Husks. This happened again in Mass Effect 2.

* The Cerberus team aboard the derelict reaper were indoctrinated. Even sleeping gods dream.

* Vigil told Shepard how Protheans were indocrinated.

In short, every experience Shepard has had pointed to the fact that any exposure to Reaper tech = indoctrination. There's no reason for her to believe it would work differently this time around. And considering what happened in the most recent comic series...

Modifié par JGray, 22 janvier 2012 - 08:17 .

[Thargorichiban]

King Minos wrote...

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Cerberus murdered innocent marines, including a rear admiral.  Case closed.

For science.

And huskified a human colony... for science!

And keeps doing experiment after experiment with evil and deadly technology and creatures that end up in failure after failure that always ends in everone dying... for science!

[Calibration Master]

JGray wrote...

Opinions about Cerberus aside, giving the base to TIM always seemed stupid to me for one simple reason: there's Reaper tech there. So far, everything Shepard's seen says exposure to Reaper tech leads to indoctrination and there's no avoiding it.

* Saren was indocrinated by Sovereign. As was Benezia and anyone who worked for Saren for any length of time, including Salarian special ops prisoners.

* In Mass Effect, Shepard came across multiple instances of miners or scientists randomly finding a Dragon's Tooth. It always ended with the miners/scientists impailing themselves upon the spikes and turning themselves into Husks. This happened again in Mass Effect 2.

* The Cerberus team aboard the derelict reaper were indoctrinated. Even sleeping gods dream.

* Vigil told Shepard how Protheans were indocrinated.

In short, every experience Shepard has had pointed to the fact that any exposure to Reaper tech = indoctrination. There's no reason for her to believe it would work differently this time around. And considering what happened in the most recent comic series...

The parts of Sovereign that crashed on the Citadel didn't indoctrinate people. The Turians were even able to strip those parts and develop the Thanix canon.

Paul Grayson has reaper tech in his own body. Yes, he is indoctrinated, but not everyone around him is indoctrinated. Everyone around Paul Grayson is just fine.

TIM was hit by a reaper artifact. His friend Ben Hislop became indoctrinated, but TIM himself didn't get indoctrinated.


So not ALL reaper tech indoctrinated EVERYONE.

Modifié par Calibration Master, 22 janvier 2012 - 08:21 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Calibration Master wrote...

JGray wrote...

Opinions about Cerberus aside, giving the base to TIM always seemed stupid to me for one simple reason: there's Reaper tech there. So far, everything Shepard's seen says exposure to Reaper tech leads to indoctrination and there's no avoiding it.

* Saren was indocrinated by Sovereign. As was Benezia and anyone who worked for Saren for any length of time, including Salarian special ops prisoners.

* In Mass Effect, Shepard came across multiple instances of miners or scientists randomly finding a Dragon's Tooth. It always ended with the miners/scientists impailing themselves upon the spikes and turning themselves into Husks. This happened again in Mass Effect 2.

* The Cerberus team aboard the derelict reaper were indoctrinated. Even sleeping gods dream.

* Vigil told Shepard how Protheans were indocrinated.

In short, every experience Shepard has had pointed to the fact that any exposure to Reaper tech = indoctrination. There's no reason for her to believe it would work differently this time around. And considering what happened in the most recent comic series...

The parts of Sovereign that crashed on the Citadel didn't indoctrinate people. The Turians were even able to strip those parts and develop the Thanix canon.

Paul Grayson has reaper tech in his own body. Yes, he is indoctrinated, but not everyone around him is indoctrinated. Everyone around Paul Grayson is just fine.


So not ALL reaper tech indoctrinated EVERYONE.

Sovereign's debris was also decomissioned, or "turned off".

Just bits and pieces of metal. Paul Grayson is a different case altogether.

[King Minos]

Thargorichiban wrote...

King Minos wrote...

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Cerberus murdered innocent marines, including a rear admiral.  Case closed.

For science.

And huskified a human colony... for science!

And keeps doing experiment after experiment with evil and deadly technology and creatures that end up in failure after failure that always ends in everone dying... for science!

Perfectly justified and approved. By science.

[JGray]

TIM doesn't seem to be indocrinated. I'm not sure I'm buying that, myself. We have no idea how many people were indocrinated by Sovereign's piecesparts. If I were Shepard and Anderson, I'd want a look-out for that. And Shepard doesn't know about TIM's experiences or Paul Grayson, so they don't count in this argument.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Seboist wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

Merchant2006 wrote...

Giving TIM the Collector Base is the equivalent of giving Hitler the blueprints to nuclear weapons before the Americans/Russians develop it.

Right, because TIM isn't a pro-human space nartzi, he's 'morally grey'. Bahahaha.

Ahhhh, Godwin's law. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later in this thread.

To be fair, the ME2 docs refer to Cerberus as "space nazis" and ME3 has a line where they make an unsubtle comparison between TIM and everyone's favorite Fuhrer.

Even BioWare succumbed to GoodwinsLaw?

[King Minos]

My responce to Cerberus if they were indoctrinated:

Modifié par King Minos, 22 janvier 2012 - 08:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?

Only if one accepts that there is no other way.

Ok. I'll bite.
Say you have ROUGHLY 1 minute to doomsday. Do you have time to look for other answers? Especially when there doesn't seem to even be an indication of another answer?

[Calibration Master]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

Merchant2006 wrote...

Giving TIM the Collector Base is the equivalent of giving Hitler the blueprints to nuclear weapons before the Americans/Russians develop it.

Right, because TIM isn't a pro-human space nartzi, he's 'morally grey'. Bahahaha.

Ahhhh, Godwin's law. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later in this thread.

To be fair, the ME2 docs refer to Cerberus as "space nazis" and ME3 has a line where they make an unsubtle comparison between TIM and everyone's favorite Fuhrer.

Even BioWare succumbed to GoodwinsLaw?

Seems like it...

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Calibration Master wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

gogman25 wrote...

So, you're having ME2 nostalgia and want to work with the xenophobes again because you're convinced they're the good guys? Maybe there is too much emphasis on them rather than other evil guys, but they're still evil.

*sight*

Here we go again, with the "Cerberus = evil lolololol" bullcrap. ;


Cerberus is not evil. "Evil" is only a matter of perspective. What is evil in the eyes of person X might not be evil in the eyes of person Y.

I could say the same thing about any number of versions of well known villains in pop culture ranging from the Joker, Lex Luther, Cobra Commander, Megatron, Norman Osborne, Dr. Doom, and Magento that still doesn't make them heroes.  

The Joker, Luther, Cobra, Megatron, etc. etc. etc. are all comic-book villians. They are all card-carrying villians.

Is TIM a card-carrying villian? Do you want him to be a card-carrying villian?


Mass Effect is not a comic-book (well there are Mass Effect graphic-novels but that's besides the point). Mass Effect is not black-and-white. It goes deeper than your typical card-carrying villian versus your typical lawful-good hero.

A lot of those evil card carring comic book supervillains are more complex than TIM is.
 
Like Megatron who in the IDW comic book universe has been shown that before he came the leader of the Decepticons he was a miner who was also a political activist who preached non-violence and thought Cybertron's caste system was unjust.He got arrested because a friend of his (who later became an Autobot) got in a bar fight and injured some cops and he was beaten up while in custody.

Orion Pax (who later became Optimus Prime) freed Megatron and arrested the cop that beat him and even agreed with him and even quoted Megatron's speech when he went before the corrupt Cybertronian Senate.

But I lose all support and sympanthy for Meagtron once he killed a senator, became an underground gladiator which allowed him to build his army the Decepticons and then went to kill trillions of aliens so he could win a war that most of them never knew about and millions of humans so he have a new homeworld. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ahglock wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?

Sure and if everything in life and in this game were actually like that you might have a point.  But no there are poeple who are freaking evil who do evil for only one reason because they like it or they want power or a wide range of other reasons that don't have a save the day excuse in the background.  While not everything is black and white, there actually is quite a lot of black and white out there.

 People delude themselves into thinking everything in reality has some deep moral compelxity, lots of times it just doens't.  If you are talking about broad concpets like a country or whether a person is totally evil yeah you can find shades of greay and good things in them, but that is not the same thing as noting that X person is evil overall.

 And in ME I'm sorry Cerebus is combic book evil, there isn't any moral complexity past what Cobra Commander provides,(And just so people know even he had superifcial complextiy like Tim does) ME2 seemed to take the comic book villany to all new heights in the darker chapter but hey I like comics so I don't have a problem with it. 

Oh? How is it "not so" in the game?
Reapers are coming. that's a end of the world scenario.
Cerberus are trying to stop them whatever the cost.

[Exia001]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?

Sure and if everything in life and in this game were actually like that you might have a point.  But no there are poeple who are freaking evil who do evil for only one reason because they like it or they want power or a wide range of other reasons that don't have a save the day excuse in the background.  While not everything is black and white, there actually is quite a lot of black and white out there.

 People delude themselves into thinking everything in reality has some deep moral compelxity, lots of times it just doens't.  If you are talking about broad concpets like a country or whether a person is totally evil yeah you can find shades of greay and good things in them, but that is not the same thing as noting that X person is evil overall.

 And in ME I'm sorry Cerebus is combic book evil, there isn't any moral complexity past what Cobra Commander provides,(And just so people know even he had superifcial complextiy like Tim does) ME2 seemed to take the comic book villany to all new heights in the darker chapter but hey I like comics so I don't have a problem with it. 

Oh? How is it "not so" in the game?
Reapers are coming. that's a end of the world scenario.
Cerberus are trying to stop them whatever the cost.

No, Shep is, Cerberus are trying to control them, theres a difference

[Ravenmyste]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

"Welcome to the evening news. Today, Canadian company 'BioWare' released Mass Effect 3, a computer 'role playing game' that allows children to play as a card carrying member of a racist, fascist, criminal organization named after a Greek god of death. The game rewards behaviors such as paying alien prostitutes to dance, exterminating pregnant princesses, and taking over enormous ancient death machines in order to assure the supremacy of their race and promote galactic purity. Also in the news tonight, we cover a puppy parade."

incorrect of Cerberus being the Greek good of death.. its the guardian of hell for the river of stix

[Calibration Master]

JGray wrote...

TIM doesn't seem to be indocrinated. I'm not sure I'm buying that, myself. We have no idea how many people were indocrinated by Sovereign's piecesparts. If I were Shepard and Anderson, I'd want a look-out for that. And Shepard doesn't know about TIM's experiences or Paul Grayson, so they don't count in this argument.

Well Sovereign is dead and gone. He's kaput. No need to worry about his indoctrination anymore. I don't think anyone on the Citadel is indoctrinated because of Sovereign's parts and debris.

And I also don't thinkt TIM is indoctrinated... not yet...

And I was not arguing from Shepard's point of view. If you want to reason from Shepard's point of view then yes, you're right. However, it's not as easy as you make it sound.

Yes, pretty much every working reaper artifact has indoctrinated people, But without studying reaper tech, we wouldn't have the Thanix canon. Without studying reaper tech, we wouldn't have had the reaper IFF. Without studying reaper tech, we wouldn't have had EDI.

So if you keep in mind that the Thanix canon, the reaper IFF and even EDI are all results of studying reaper tech, the choices between blowing up the Collector base or keeping it all of the sudden isn't that easy.


I guess I can understand both sides.

Blowing up the Collector base seems like the best thing to do since all reaper tech has indoctrinated people.
But keeping the Collector base also seems like the best thing to do, since studying reaper tech has proven to be very useful.

[Calibration Master]

Exia001 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?

Sure and if everything in life and in this game were actually like that you might have a point.  But no there are poeple who are freaking evil who do evil for only one reason because they like it or they want power or a wide range of other reasons that don't have a save the day excuse in the background.  While not everything is black and white, there actually is quite a lot of black and white out there.

 People delude themselves into thinking everything in reality has some deep moral compelxity, lots of times it just doens't.  If you are talking about broad concpets like a country or whether a person is totally evil yeah you can find shades of greay and good things in them, but that is not the same thing as noting that X person is evil overall.

 And in ME I'm sorry Cerebus is combic book evil, there isn't any moral complexity past what Cobra Commander provides,(And just so people know even he had superifcial complextiy like Tim does) ME2 seemed to take the comic book villany to all new heights in the darker chapter but hey I like comics so I don't have a problem with it. 

Oh? How is it "not so" in the game?
Reapers are coming. that's a end of the world scenario.
Cerberus are trying to stop them whatever the cost.

No, Shep is, Cerberus are trying to control them, theres a difference

No, there is no difference in the goal itself. Both Shepard and TIM want to stop the reapers. But TIM wants to stop the reapers by controlling them.

[Exia001]

Calibration Master wrote...

Exia001 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Killing is evil. But is killing to save someone evil?  Not so simple now, it is?

Cerberus could be making kitten-smoothies - but if it's the only known way to save reapers, can you really say it's is utterly evil?

Sure and if everything in life and in this game were actually like that you might have a point.  But no there are poeple who are freaking evil who do evil for only one reason because they like it or they want power or a wide range of other reasons that don't have a save the day excuse in the background.  While not everything is black and white, there actually is quite a lot of black and white out there.

 People delude themselves into thinking everything in reality has some deep moral compelxity, lots of times it just doens't.  If you are talking about broad concpets like a country or whether a person is totally evil yeah you can find shades of greay and good things in them, but that is not the same thing as noting that X person is evil overall.

 And in ME I'm sorry Cerebus is combic book evil, there isn't any moral complexity past what Cobra Commander provides,(And just so people know even he had superifcial complextiy like Tim does) ME2 seemed to take the comic book villany to all new heights in the darker chapter but hey I like comics so I don't have a problem with it. 

Oh? How is it "not so" in the game?
Reapers are coming. that's a end of the world scenario.
Cerberus are trying to stop them whatever the cost.

No, Shep is, Cerberus are trying to control them, theres a difference

No, there is no difference in the goal itself. Both Shepard and TIM want to stop the reapers. But TIM wants to stop the reapers by controlling them.

It isn't really 'stopping' its replace one tyranny with another