748 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

So what's your problem with that?[/quote]
The part where if it were pirates doing the same thing, Cerberus would have done nothing.

[quote]So he works for free? Can I get his number?[/quote]
He took less money to do more good, oh glorious twister of words.  My mom worked for free like 25% of the time, though.

And even if he did work for free, the money you'd save in hospital bills would be made up for in transportation costs. If you were close enough to the hospital he works at, I'd be able to smell you from here.  Zing!

[quote]Yeah, they did you a real disservice.[/quote]
Better than yours did.  Zing again!

[quote]I was talking about Mass Effect, by the way...[/quote]
Next time, say so.  Anyway, the Sirta Foundation uses its profits to fund medical research.  Mordin's clinic offered free health care and a shelter from gang violence on Omega, of all places.

[quote]How do you know they don't[/quote]
No evidence to support the claim with ample evidence showing a general lack of interest in human well-being.

[quote]and why are you slamming them for being military? Military is pretty goddamn important, especially in this hostile galaxy.[/quote]
Never said military wasn't important.  All I said was that they had the means to engage in less morally dubious activities, but don't.

[quote]I guarantee you charities that build hospitals and schools already exist.[/quote]
And yet you asked for me to provide examples within Mass Effect itself, implying that they DIDN'T exist, implying that such behavior was exclusive to paragon Shepard.  Plus that goes both ways--the Alliance already does scientific, political, and military stuff.

[quote]Whether Cerberus contributes or not is unknown.[/quote]
The authors never made a point of it.  Goody-two-shoes Cerberus only exists in your headcanon.  And while having a personal headcanon is awesome (I have one), it often runs contrary to author intent.

[quote]Though in ME2 they did send aid to Horizon.[/quote]
After they sold it out to the Collectors.

[quote]They also risk their lives for human causes.[/quote]
So does Al Quaeda.  So did the Stoßtruppen.

[quote]Do I smell something fishy?[/quote]
Fishy logic, maybe.  Triple zing!

Look.  Cerberus was presented as a mysterious evil in ME1, is presented as a mysterious half-evil in ME2, and will be presented as a mysterious evil in ME3.  Had there been signs of "niceness" in ME1, and perhaps less "evilness" in ME2, I would be more surprised and upset at their turn in ME3.  But that's not the case, so their coming role as a "bad guy" faction wasn't a big deal for me.  In fact, I kind of expected it.

Why is it that every time I state my opinion, you turn it into this huge debate?  Sheesh.

[KingDan97]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Maybe I'm missing something, but why didn't TIM just set the "trap" for the Collector Ship mission from the beginning? Where Shepard actually boarded it.

What did Horizon really gain anyone?

Well... It... Wow, ya know I really think the only thing that came out on the positive side there would be that colony now has a defense turret. The only other thing TIM learned what that the Collectors were after people related to Shepard. I suppose you got a technical field test against the Collector bugs but the only other area they were in after that you were protected by a Biotic field.

Modifié par KingDan97, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:48 .

[LPPrince]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Why do you hate saving people from Collectors? D=

Hahaha, no worries. I don't hate Cerberus saving humans. I'm just pointing out that Cerberus is indirectly responsible...nah.

DIRECTLY responsible for human deaths. Not just in ME2 but also ME1 if we recall their side missions.

[King Minos]

LPPrince wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Why do you hate saving people from Collectors? D=

Hahaha, no worries. I don't hate Cerberus saving humans. I'm just pointing out that Cerberus is indirectly responsible...nah.

DIRECTLY responsible for human deaths. Not just in ME2 but also ME1 if we recall their side missions.

Directly responsible for Human deaths where in ME2?

[Lotion Soronarr]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
The part where if it were pirates doing the same thing, Cerberus would have done nothing.

Proof?

The authors never made a point of it.  Goody-two-shoes Cerberus only exists in your headcanon.  And while having a personal headcanon is awesome (I have one), it often runs contrary to author intent.

Since when is your head-con any better?

After they sold it out to the Collectors.

You have a strange definition of "sold out".

[KingDan97]

King Minos wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Why do you hate saving people from Collectors? D=

Hahaha, no worries. I don't hate Cerberus saving humans. I'm just pointing out that Cerberus is indirectly responsible...nah.

DIRECTLY responsible for human deaths. Not just in ME2 but also ME1 if we recall their side missions.

Directly responsible for Human deaths where in ME2?

Well they were directly responsible for the deaths of those specific colonists, if TIM hadn't told the alliance Horizon was next Ash wouldn't have been sent there, the Collector's wouldn't have gone after her via Horizon and the people of Horizon wouldn't have been attacked.

Whether or not another colony would've been attacked, if Shepard would've been able to intercept and if they did any real lasting damage to the ship to warrant the small flurry of attacks to the ship as it left is an entire other story.

Modifié par KingDan97, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:51 .

[BlueMagitek]

LPPrince wrote...

Hahaha, no worries. I don't hate Cerberus saving humans. I'm just pointing out that Cerberus is indirectly responsible...nah.

DIRECTLY responsible for human deaths. Not just in ME2 but also ME1 if we recall their side missions.

Listen, to perform real science, you have to sacrifice a few orphans now and then. 

And yes, Cerberus is dirty, I'm not denying that.

[LPPrince]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Listen, to perform real science, you have to sacrifice a few orphans now and then. 

And yes, Cerberus is dirty, I'm not denying that.

Then we're on the same page. About Cerberus being dirty, not the orphans. lol

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Saphra Deden wrote...

For you maybe. I guess my fun wasn't important. All I wanted was the freedom to choose who to support.

I understand why people didn't like the railroading in ME2 but having more railroading, just going the opposite direction, was not the solution.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KingDan97 wrote...

King Minos wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Why do you hate saving people from Collectors? D=

Hahaha, no worries. I don't hate Cerberus saving humans. I'm just pointing out that Cerberus is indirectly responsible...nah.

DIRECTLY responsible for human deaths. Not just in ME2 but also ME1 if we recall their side missions.

Directly responsible for Human deaths where in ME2?

Well they were directly responsible for the deaths of those specific colonists, if TIM hadn't told the alliance Horizon was next Ash wouldn't have been sent there, the Collector's wouldn't have gone after her via Horizon and the people of Horizon wouldn't have been attacked.

...and another or probably several colonies would have been attacked and ALL colonists would have been taken.
Cerberus isn't Controlling the collectors. They cannot be held acountable for Collectors killing.

thanks to Cerberues, the collectors were halted at horizon - wihout that trap, wihout those guns and sheps team and TIM's involvment - that colony, and many others, would have been taken.

[King Minos]

KingDan97 wrote...

King Minos wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Why do you hate saving people from Collectors? D=

Hahaha, no worries. I don't hate Cerberus saving humans. I'm just pointing out that Cerberus is indirectly responsible...nah.

DIRECTLY responsible for human deaths. Not just in ME2 but also ME1 if we recall their side missions.

Directly responsible for Human deaths where in ME2?

Well they were directly responsible for the deaths of those specific colonists, if TIM hadn't told the alliance Horizon was next Ash wouldn't have been sent there, the Collector's wouldn't have gone after her via Horizon and the people of Horizon wouldn't have been attacked.

Cerberus was not directly responsible for the colonists death. It was going to happen anyway, all Cerberus did was pick the target.

If it was not for Cerberus' involvement, Shepard would not of known who or what was attacking the colonists. And since no-one gives a damn about the colonists, the Collectors would of a **** load of Human goo and husks ready to attack Earth.

Cerberus also confirmed the Collector involvement for himself, the Alliance and Council.

Modifié par King Minos, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:54 .

[LPPrince]

Funny thing is, if the Collector's were collecting turian, asari, salarian, or any other races' colonies, Cerberus wouldn't of done a damned thing. Then we'd have some other Terminator Reaper.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]KingDan97 wrote...

Directly responsible for Human deaths where in ME2?[/quote]Well they were directly responsible for the deaths of those specific colonists, if TIM hadn't told the alliance Horizon was next Ash wouldn't have been sent there, the Collector's wouldn't have gone after her via Horizon and the people of Horizon wouldn't have been attacked.

Whether or not another colony would've been attacked, if Shepard would've been able to intercept and if they did any real lasting damage to the ship to warrant the small flurry of attacks to the ship as it left is an entire other story.
[/quote]

And that "another story" is important.

How do you intercept the Colloectors when you dont' know where they are? That terminus strech is big.
Will Shep cruse around, hoping he is close enough when the next attack hits? Without actually knowing what he's up against? Without having a ship that can take on the Collectors?

Great plan Sherlock. Half the colonies would be gone before ouy evne made contact with the Collectors - and that contact would be under much worse circumstances.

[Blacklash93]

KingDan97 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Maybe I'm missing something, but why didn't TIM just set the "trap" for the Collector Ship mission from the beginning? Where Shepard actually boarded it.

What did Horizon really gain anyone?

Well... It... Wow, ya know I really think the only thing that came out on the positive side there would be that colony now has a defense turret. The only other thing TIM learned what that the Collectors were after people related to Shepard. I suppose you got a technical field test against the Collector bugs but the only other area they were in after that you were protected by a Biotic field.

Well TIM should have already known the Collectors were interested in Shepard. They tried to personally kill him.

And whether it be at the Collector Ship or Horizon, Shepard would have been screwed either way against the Collector bugs and the Collectors themselves if the countermeasure didn't work.

Now that I think about it, Horizon was pretty damn pointless.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:58 .

[Yakko77]

TIM brought Shepard back in hopes that he/she would ultimately help further the goals of Cerberus but in order to do that the Reapers need to be stopped. TIM and Miranda and others might try to sugar coat Cerberus but EVERY one of their experiments you run into in ME1 was an atrocity to some degree or another and the same can be said of ME2 even if the Lazarus Project did bring Shep back. Cerberus are NOT the good guys, PERIOD! They just happen to have a common enemy as the rest of the Mass Effect tech using galaxy and that is of course the Reapers. Though the rest of the galaxy was mostly in denial or slow to react, Cerberus showing initiative on the Reaper threat just shows that they go after threats to themselves more vigorously than govt entities throughout the galaxy which are notoriously slow and inefficient anyways.

We were allied with the Soviets during WWII as well but I'd hardly call Stalin a friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[LPPrince]

And guys-

Whether or not you think Cerberus is evil, in ME3 you're likely going to wipe them out anyway.

[King Minos]

LPPrince wrote...

Funny thing is, if the Collector's were collecting turian, asari, salarian, or any other races' colonies, Cerberus wouldn't of done a damned thing. Then we'd have some other Terminator Reaper.

Cerberus would be interested, they would possibly send someone to scout out the situation to see if they posed a theat to Humanity and to see if they are involved with the Reapers.
 
But i doubt they would be directly involved in protecting them. 

Cerberus might tip the council off.

Modifié par King Minos, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:59 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Funny thing is, if the Collector's were collecting turian, asari, salarian, or any other races' colonies, Cerberus wouldn't of done a damned thing. Then we'd have some other Terminator Reaper.

That's an assumption you can't back up.

That's quite the baseless counter point you have there.

I would have hoped that a Cerberus [sycophant] such as yourself would know how human-centric Cerberus is.

[inappropriate language edited]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 24 janvier 2012 - 12:27 .

[Blacklash93]

Actually, why would TIM get a colony attacked if he wasn't even certain the Collector bug countermeasure was working?

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

So you saved one or two, that doesn't mean the ones who died are not you're fault.

No, it isn't my fault. I did more than anyone else to save that arsonist. The lives are on him, not me.

What I did was not evil, what I did was the only thing that could potentially stop him and save lives.

You see, I can understand sacrificing a few for the sake of many more lives.  What I can't stand is how you can deny responsibility for such actions.  A crime is a crime and a positive result is not absolution.  Evil is still evil no matter the cause. I'm not saying it is never necesary, understandable, or times when it is the only thing to do.  No matter the result, no matter the motivation, killing people never falls into the catagory of good.  This gives killing to save a life it's own nobility, as it is an act of self sacrifice.  The sole reason I found Anders tolerable at the end of DA2 was that he recognized his actions as evil even though he believed the result was a net positive and knew he deserved to die for them.  However, to deny the accountability is to deny that nobility, and simply makes one an arrogant jerk that can't admit to imperfection.