748 réponses à ce sujet

[Ausstig]

RideshLive wrote...

The BioWare's fault was to make The Illusive Man such a charismatic character that now people just can't accept the fact that he always had an agenda.

More true then you know. 

bioware made a mistake by have Cerberus as allies in ME2 when they were enemies in ME1. 

It just makes no sense UNLESS the player is given the option to wok with them in ME3, which from the info avabile doesn't apear to be an option. 

[Calibration Master]

Yakko77 wrote...

No.  It was already well established that the Collectors were gunning for Shepard personally with the initial Normandy SR1 attack.

Not true. Just because the Normandy SR1 got destroyed by the Collectors doesn't mean they were gunning for Shepard personally. The Collectors could have had many many many reasons why they took down the Normandy SR1. At that point, you nor Cerberus had any idea of the Collector's motivation or their interest in Shepard.

Maybe the Collector ship was just passing by, the Normandy SR1 so happened to be on their way and so they destroyed it. After all, the Collectors are hunting for humans and the Normandy SR1 was a human ship.

[Calibration Master]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Also is that worth getting so many people abducted?

How can you not understand this? It is driving me nuts.

If it wasn't a third of Horizon being abducted it would be the entirety of a different colony being abducted.

Don't see you that? Stop looking at the peope who were lost and look at the people who were saved, saved!

Two thirds of the colony. That's the first and only colony the Collectors hit that wasn't completely kidnapped.

I don't... know how to explain this in any simpler terms. It just isn't possible.

I know that feel bro.

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I accept TIM's agenda just fine but his way of achieving it in ME3 makes no sense, is counter-intuitive, and is the product of lazy and shallow writing. It is a disservice to his character and to the player.

Perhaps TIM wasn't the person you thought he was.

Of course you're always going to blame things on the writers if they don't go the direction you pray for on your TIM shrine.

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

You see, I can understand sacrificing a few for the sake of many more lives.

Oh, good then. That means you must understand why the Horizon mission was necessary and how it was a good thing.

I'm so glad we cleared that up.

Means and ends matter, not just one or the other Saphra.  Maybe one day you'll understand that standing on a pedestal of arrogance and screaming necesity doesn't change that.  *Pats head*

[ArkkAngel007]

Does Cerberus have its own character thread on the Character and Romance section, or is there a TIM thread there? This scary little niche definitely belongs there.

Anyways, plain and simple, TIM is not good or evil. He is a force that does, in his view, is necessary for the safety and ascendence of humanity as the superior being in the galactic community. He will do good things and diabolical things, but all because he felt they were necessary, which includes cooperating with the Alliance and alien races to an extent.

Mass Effect 3, without spoiling anything, is along the same lines. TIM is going to do what he feels is necessary, yet this time he will not have Shepard interfering in any shape or form.

[saturos2]

Lizardviking wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

For you maybe. I guess my fun wasn't important. All I wanted was the freedom to choose who to support.

I understand why people didn't like the railroading in ME2 but having more railroading, just going the opposite direction, was not the solution.

[Had-to-say]

This was obvious. Cerberus in Greek and Roman mythology, is a multi-headed hound which guards the gates of the Underworld, to prevent those who have crossed the river Styx from ever escaping.

The name kind of gave it away. I knew the moment I laid eyes on TIM he was not to be trusted. TIM is a very dangerous man. TIM clearly has secret motives and his secret motives have secret motives.

Modifié par Had-to-say, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:42 .

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, I'm pretty sure the writers just suck.

After all, they had TIM get indoctrinated.

TIM has always played a dangerous game. He's just playing out of his league this time.

Same to you, buddy.

For all I care, they could glorify TIM as the savior of humanity. It doesn't invalidate the Paragon playstyle, just as portraying him as a fatally flawed man doesn't invalidate Renegades.

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Means and ends matter, not just one or the other Saphra.

The means were the best available. I have yet to hear an alternative.

I never said there was.  I only said that the immorality of killing innocents does not disappear if it is necesary.

What purpose did it serve anyway?  They already knew the Collector's were involved because of Freedom's progress.  They didn't gain anything besides the reinforcement of something they already knew.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:52 .

[Calibration Master]

Had-to-say wrote...

This was obvious. Cerberus in Greek and Roman mythology, is a multi-headed hound which guards the gates of the Underworld, to prevent those who have crossed the river Styx from ever escaping.

The name kind of gave it away. I knew the moment I laid eyes on TIM he was not to be trusted. TIM is a very dangerous man. TIM clearly has secret motives and his secret motives have secret motives.

Cerberus' name doesn't say anything about their morality. The name "Cerberus" was chosen by TIM for entirely different reasons.

Cerberus (the Greek hound) was a multi-headed dog that guarded Hades.

After the First Contact War, the Illusive Man decided that humanity needed an organisation to guard it from the aliens beyond the Charon Relay. So the Illusive Man started this organisation and named it Cerberus.


"Cerberus" refers to the Greek guardian dog that guarded the gates of Hades, while the "Charon" relay refers to the ferryman that carried the souls over the river of Styx (Charon being the name of the ferryman in Greek mythology in charge of ferrying souls to Hades).


The Alliance saw the rest of the universe beyond the Charon relay as "Hades" (the Greek name for the underworld), since the rest of the galaxy beyond the Charon relay was alien territory. So that's why the relay that linked humanity to the rest of the galaxy was named "Charon".

Modifié par Calibration Master, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:57 .

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I never said there was.

SO they are immoral for doing the only thing they could do? That's not very fair.

It is fair to say their actions are immoral.  It would be unfair to suggest that an action looses moral bearing because of any circumstances.  The circumstances only have effect on how the action reflects on the perpetrator.  As I explained earlier, it is the unwillingness the aknowledge the immorality of the action that reflects badly on them.  I also don't believe the cost was worth what little (Read, next to nothing) was gained, but that's just me.

[AlexXIV]

Calibration Master wrote...

Had-to-say wrote...

This was obvious. Cerberus in Greek and Roman mythology, is a multi-headed hound which guards the gates of the Underworld, to prevent those who have crossed the river Styx from ever escaping.

The name kind of gave it away. I knew the moment I laid eyes on TIM he was not to be trusted. TIM is a very dangerous man. TIM clearly has secret motives and his secret motives have secret motives.

Cerberus' name doesn't say anything about their morality. The name "Cerberus" was chosen by TIM for entirely different reasons.

Cerberus (the Greek hound) was a multi-headed dog that guarded Hades.

After the First Contact War, the Illusive Man decided that humanity needed an organisation to guard it from the aliens beyond the Charon Relay. So the Illusive Man started this organisation and named it Cerberus.


"Cerberus" refers to the Greek guardian dog that guarded the gates of Hades, while the "Charon" relay refers to the ferryman that carried the souls over the river of Styx (Charon being the name of the ferryman in Greek mythology in charge of ferrying souls to Hades).


The Alliance saw the rest of the universe beyond the Charon relay as "Hades" (the Greek name for the underworld), since the rest of the galaxy beyond the Charon relay was alien territory. So that's why the relay that linked humanity to the rest of the galaxy was named "Charon".

Neither Charon not Cerberus nor Hades are evil btw. They're just doing their jobs.

[Calibration Master]

AlexXIV wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

Had-to-say wrote...

This was obvious. Cerberus in Greek and Roman mythology, is a multi-headed hound which guards the gates of the Underworld, to prevent those who have crossed the river Styx from ever escaping.

The name kind of gave it away. I knew the moment I laid eyes on TIM he was not to be trusted. TIM is a very dangerous man. TIM clearly has secret motives and his secret motives have secret motives.

Cerberus' name doesn't say anything about their morality. The name "Cerberus" was chosen by TIM for entirely different reasons.

Cerberus (the Greek hound) was a multi-headed dog that guarded Hades.

After the First Contact War, the Illusive Man decided that humanity needed an organisation to guard it from the aliens beyond the Charon Relay. So the Illusive Man started this organisation and named it Cerberus.


"Cerberus" refers to the Greek guardian dog that guarded the gates of Hades, while the "Charon" relay refers to the ferryman that carried the souls over the river of Styx (Charon being the name of the ferryman in Greek mythology in charge of ferrying souls to Hades).


The Alliance saw the rest of the universe beyond the Charon relay as "Hades" (the Greek name for the underworld), since the rest of the galaxy beyond the Charon relay was alien territory. So that's why the relay that linked humanity to the rest of the galaxy was named "Charon".

Neither Charon not Cerberus nor Hades are evil btw. They're just doing their jobs.

Indeed. That's what I was trying to say. Thank you Alex.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, I'm pretty sure the writers just suck.

After all, they had TIM get indoctrinated.

Sorry but isn't indoctrination one of the risks you take researching Reaper tech? How is that bad writing? Because TIM is that awesome that it couldn't have happened to him?

[saturos2]

AlexXIV wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, I'm pretty sure the writers just suck.

After all, they had TIM get indoctrinated.

Sorry but isn't indoctrination one of the risks you take researching Reaper tech? How is that bad writing? Because TIM is that awesome that it couldn't have happened to him?

No, it just takes away from his eistablished character and forces him to be evil of the sake of making cerberus evil in ME3.

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It is fair to say their actions are immoral.

No it isn't. Not when their actions are the only means through which lives can be saved. That is not immoral in any capacity.

Cerberus did not kill those people; the Collectors did. Cerberus made a choice but it was the Collectors who made them choose.

Again, you are talking about motive and result, neither of which are immoral as you see them to be, not the action.  Killing innocents is always immoral, and the Illusive Man made a very deliberate choice to spend their lives.

I'll ask more directly, why was it necesary?  I'm not actually trying to argue.  I'm trying to remember why TIM did that and all I can recall was that TIM wanted to test whether the Collectors would react to a squadmate of Shepard's and confirm that it was the Collectors they were dealing with.  The first seems to me a petty reason in comparisons to hundreds of lives spent and the second just seems redundant since they already saw the Collectors on Freedom's Progress.  So, what was so pressing that several hundred colonists had to die for it?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 24 janvier 2012 - 12:08 .