18 réponses à ce sujet

[PJ156]

Since my second mod Caravan Club I have become weary of balancing combats. I got lots of comments that the final battle was too tough. Since then i think I have made all combat to easy as those comments come to mind whenever I find something tough and I bork the battle. Notably also two combats in the middle of Last days@ get comments but i found them easy in test.

Does anyone have any rules of thumb for balancing or thoughts on how this part of my mods can be made better.

Perhaps a difficulty level could be added beyond the one implied by the play levels in the game.

I balance for normal play and let the player make it tougher by going to hardcore generaly.

PJ

[manageri]

As a long time player I can guarantee it doesn't matter how you balance, some people will complain it's too easy and others will complain it's too hard. I've seen it happen on a ton of mods' comment pages. The biggest reason for this I think is that some players let the AI handle their companions, while some do everything themselves, which obviously beats the crap out of the AI. Also, the difficulty slider of the game doesn't really do much to help. Double damage might sound like a big deal but it really isn't, especially when it only applies to the enemies' physical attacks, not spells.

Making some kind of scripted difficulty slider sounds like a great idea. Perhaps a relatively easy way of doing it would be to adjust the enemies' stats via their spawn scripts. Maybe go with HP, AC, and AB adjustments, and/or the number of enemies?

[PJ156]

Thanks Manageri I am interested in what player have to say on this. I can't predict play style and that is part of the problem.

I guess the issue is do I balance for me, an experienced player, or at some other level. It is easier at low level becuase skills and equipment can be more easily predicted but it gets much harder once you get players beyond lv 6.

PJ

[Arkalezth]

If you want more players to see this, maybe the Builders: Toolset forum isn't the best place.

About balance... yes, it depends on the player. Playstyle, party composition, use of buffs... A lot of players usually play on Hardcore though (I do). I've played your modules in that setting, and while there were a few difficult fights, they weren't impossible (I remember one in the middle of The Last Days of the Raven as probably the hardest, but one of the companions can make a difference in that fight with the right tactics). These Dark Days of Waiting was about right in that regard, IMO.

About a difficulty slider, The Fred (I think it was his) has one on the Vault, I've never used it. It makes sense to use something like that if players want to adjust difficulty to their playstyle, but I don't know, it could be a bit of a nuissance too for other players who aren't sure of how to adjust it.

There's always the good old level selection at the start, giving the option to start at a higher or lower level depending on the desired challenge. Your modules may not be the best suited for that, though.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I think it all boils down to giving the player a challenge, and then giving them ways to overcome that challenge. The complaints come when either the player doesn't have to think to plow through the game, or when they feel stuck, frustrated that there's nothing else they can try to get around the problem. So maybe the best way to keep the players happy is to provide them with a little bit of aid at arm's length, extra potions in the stores, a side quest that can give them the xp and loot to get ahead, maybe an extra companion.

I also approach things like Tsongo does. I'm not that good of a player, so I figure any battle I can win is easy enough for most players, especially considering that I'm usually rushing through on a test-run. I leave the respawn in too, simply because testing is impossible without it. Some players get unreasonably annoyed at that, but I guess you could switch it off as some kind of module option.

[bealzebub]

When I balance encounters, I generaly start out with MWMDragon's Server balance guidelines
Then I'll make a few copies of my monster. say cr 5, 7, and 9.
I put them all in the encounter, and set the number to, something like 2-10
Then I let the game engine decide what is appropriate. That way if it is a single character, or a character with comapnions, or a multi-player group, the encounter scales appropriately. You can fine tune it with the difficulty settings (ie- normal, hard, ect.).

[kamal_]

I solved this problem.

[M. Rieder]

You could try playtesting and balancing with weaker classes. Try playtesting as a rogue or bard. That should solve the problem of people finding it too difficult.

[PJ156]

Thanks for all the replys there is food for thought here aplenty. I will check out that guide but perhaps my method is not so wrong after all.

I managed a balance system in my first mod such the Magic using clases and rougues did not get so many enemies, That's easy for lv 1 but got to complex to manage after that.

PJ

[The Fred]

PJ156 wrote...
I got lots of comments that the final battle was too tough.

Battles are never too tough. My general rule of thumb for builders is "It is your job to kill the player".

Arkalezth wrote...
About a difficulty slider, The Fred (I think it was his) has one on the Vault, I've never used it.

I was going to put together a little something which hooks into one of the difficulty systems or something like them. I never got around to it, though. A builder-customisable UI might be quite nice, too.

M. Rieder wrote...
You could try playtesting and balancing with weaker classes. Try playtesting as a rogue or bard.

Why would you playtest as a Bard, then?

[manageri]

I think one of the biggest factors is whether you have a proper tank or not. In almost every mod I've played a fighter with combat expertise and other such defensive feats can tank 90% of enemies without having to worry about them hitting him at all unless they roll 20. If you don't have such a character then you're looking at taking a crapload more damage, for example if the enemies need to roll 17 instead of 20 you're looking at taking four times as much damage just from losing those 3 points of AC. That's just one of the many nightmares when you try to balance for every class.

Agree with Fred btw, don't underestimate bards.

[TheStoryteller01]

When I play modules that allow lots of companions AND are beyond level 6, I often find myself winning too easily battles the following way:
I put the best equipment on a single fighter type and cast every protective spell my divine and arcane casters have to offer. Then the tank takes on the enemy/ies and the rest "fire at will" - encounter beaten. Spells start to really become the decisive factor at this level range.
On the other hand I often got frustrated, when the very first battle was kind of unwinnable when I picked the "wrong" class.

As a builder it gets a lot harder to balance, the higher the level range and the more number/freedom of choice of companions you offer.

Generally I wouldn't worry too much there is NO pro RPG game out there, that doesn't get feedback about too easy/not doable. As long as people only complain about battles towards the end of the module you are probably doing right.

Modifié par TheStoryteller01, 22 janvier 2012 - 08:59 .

[kevL]

The Fred wrote...

Arkalezth wrote...
About a difficulty slider, The Fred (I think it was his) has one on the Vault, I've never used it.

I was going to put together a little something which hooks into one of the difficulty systems or something like them. I never got around to it, though. A builder-customisable UI might be quite nice, too.

feel free to hook the Pia, Fred

the options in Difficulty.2da are pretty much set, and the core script seems very stable ...


I regard it as a direct continuation of the Difficulty slider -> into Superhuman and Nightmare levels, although i class the defaults that boost the OC as (only) moderate. Personally I'm amazed at how characters can pull a really, really tough fight through, if they're willing to scrounge through their packs/feats/spells for everything they got!


imo.

Ps. i Imagine a number of difficulties could be preset(s), then chosen based on class or whatever, with a bit o extra tinker

[Arkalezth]

I was mistaken with Fred's XP Slider, maybe I was thinking about kevL's PIA. Well, whatever.

And yeah, in many modules, buffed party = instant win. Bards can be amoung the toughest classes in the game, too. For the record, I played a bard through the three first PJ's modules, and a warlock in the last (I had lost my character file).

[rjshae]

Something I see commercial games do is to put a few super-tough combat missions into the optional side quests, rather than placing them in the way of the main plot. This gives the game variety without slowing down the story. It also makes one aware of the limitations of party, while creating the illusion of a wider world setting. (I.e. there's some places you just can't go because you aren't invincible.) Going back later and finishing that difficult side quest then gives the player a sense of accomplishment.

[M. Rieder]

Arkalezth wrote...

I was mistaken with Fred's XP Slider, maybe I was thinking about kevL's PIA. Well, whatever.

And yeah, in many modules, buffed party = instant win. Bards can be amoung the toughest classes in the game, too. For the record, I played a bard through the three first PJ's modules, and a warlock in the last (I had lost my character file).

Wow, a bard for Last Days of the Raven?  I'm impressed. 

Modifié par M. Rieder, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:30 .

[M. Rieder]

Duplicate post

Modifié par M. Rieder, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:31 .