437 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So killing someone because they might  be dangerous although there is nothing to indicate that they actualy are is not being paranoid?

For the Rachni Queen, there were plenty of reasons to kill her.  I never do... but seriously, think about it:

-You've been fighting hostile Rachni that entire time.  She saaaaays they weren't in her control now that you have your finger on her death button... but she's the Queen... what exactly does she do then?  (and why are they keeping her?)

-She takes over organics telepathically... making her almost as much of a threat as the Thorian and Reapers in that regard.

-Her race is supposed to already be dead... due to them almost wiping out the entire galaxy on their own.

-She was totally fine with you killing her kids... would a mother really feel that way?

-They're fast breeders and could enter another war out of pure overpopulation (For all you know that's how the initial war with them could've come about)

It all comes down to whether you believe her story.  Paranoia need not apply.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 janvier 2012 - 12:08 .

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
We didn't attack everyone on sight back then.

The Mexica and the Incas, among other indigenous people want to have a serious word with you.

No seriously, there is an Aztec pilo right behind me waving his hand angrily.

And we aren't suceptible to species-wide mind-control.

 
Religious dogmas.
I am anything but anti-religious, but you have to accept that leaders used religion as an excuse for many wars. That's what I am referring to by Medieval times. Throughout the known world.

I'd rather not mention the nationalistic crisis in Europe, not too many centuries after that era.

 

And we don't bread like ants.

We also don't salami like ants.

Modifié par Phaedon, 23 janvier 2012 - 12:12 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Phaedon wrote...
Religious dogmas.
I am anything but anti-religious, but you have to accept that leaders used religion as an excuse for many wars. That's what I am referring to by Medieval times.

I'd rather not mention the nationalistic crisis in Europe, not too many centuries after that era.

Religion, Patriotism, Nationalism, Sexism, Racism, Culturalism, Narcissism, Politics... take your pick.  None worse than the others (and a lot of them overlap).

[Phaedon]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Religious dogmas.
I am anything but anti-religious, but you have to accept that leaders used religion as an excuse for many wars. That's what I am referring to by Medieval times.

I'd rather not mention the nationalistic crisis in Europe, not too many centuries after that era.

Religion, Patriotism, Nationalism, Sexism, Racism, Culturalism, Narcissism, Politics... take your pick.  None worse than the others (and a lot of them overlap).

I fully agree with you, I do.

It's just that religion and nationalism were the only ones to really cause a species-scale or at least almost a species-scale level of indoctrination until now. It's just a matter of coincidence.

And good marketting.

Modifié par Phaedon, 23 janvier 2012 - 12:13 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Phaedon wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Religious dogmas.
I am anything but anti-religious, but you have to accept that leaders used religion as an excuse for many wars. That's what I am referring to by Medieval times.

I'd rather not mention the nationalistic crisis in Europe, not too many centuries after that era.

Religion, Patriotism, Nationalism, Sexism, Racism, Culturalism, Narcissism, Politics... take your pick.  None worse than the others (and a lot of them overlap).

I fully agree with you, I do.

It's just that religion and nationalism were the only ones to really cause a species-scale or at least almost a species-scale level of indoctrination until now. It's just a matter of coincidence.

And good marketting.

"Family" and "Community" came first.

[Matt251287]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Some of us are frustrated because so far in Mass Effect every Renegade sacrifice has been for nothing and every gamble taken by the Paragon has paid. 

That hasn't happened though.

Saving the Council has done nothing so far.
Saving the Rachni Queen has done nothing so far.
Saving the Genophage data has done nothing so far.
Destroying the Base has done nothing so far.
Rewriting the Geth has done nothing so far.

The only decisions that have had any impact so far have been ones to do with characters - namely whether they live or die - and those aren't affected by morality.

Incorrect,

Saving the Council gives you their support and a extra cameo/audience with them in the sequel.  Interpecies relations are improved and humanity's in a stronger position (Shepard is also treated nicer at stores).  No Renegade choice benefits (if any) are actually demonstrated in the game.

Saving the Rachni Queen gives you their support and an extra cameo/audience with them in the sequel.  You also found out that the only reason they did what they did was because that group was apparently indoctrinated... no real/inherent reason to kill them.

Saving the Genophage data resulted in no negative outcome, the Renegade alternative has not been shown to be any better.

Destroying the Base gives you complete and total support/praise/respect from your squad (even the ones who felt you should've kept the base only minutes before).  Cererus is your enemy in Mass Effect 3 regardless... making only the Renegade alternative a pointless/lesser-outcome choice on both fronts.

Rewriting the Geth provides no negative consequence and is not lesser than the Renegade alternative...

Yes, so basically Mass Effect choices were about playing a movie and picking which chapters of the movie to watch, not gameplay, (sidenote: Cutscenes and non-interaction are not gameplay mechanics, so they aren't part of what defines games as RPGs, or shooters, or strategy or whatever)Noverias choices were about gameplay; the way you resolved the quests had an effect on what main characters you dealt with, and each character had different needs. And creating the cure at peak 15 resulted in an optional boss fight. I can give many more examples from Mass Effect and other games.

The choices that biowares hype have been making a big song and dance of, the ones you're talking about mainly just affects dialog. Except for the store discounts of course, and did anyone really struggle so much with the game they were scraping the bottom of the money barrel?

I'm fine with everything but that Paragon Favoritism.  Really deflates the notion of choice when you know which outcomes are going to present the most positive nuggets before you even know what the choice is. 

The design philosophy has apparently changed from their ~"Many choices lie ahead, none of them easy" to "Go blue for best ending, most content, praise, cameos, lives saved etc. and go Red to get something less than that." 

I have to agree, i play as almost a total Paragon and EVEN I want more serious consequences for the dificult Paragon descisions, it's too lucky that the Rachni queen turned out to be the friendliest alien insect anyone's ever met, that no humans resent you for saving the council, And surely not stopping the Herratics whilst we had the chance has got to cost some lives, it's too easy to feel which way the wind's blowing and do what you think 'the game' wants you to do.

What's weird is from reading this thread it seems i made a good few renegade descisions; destroyed Genophage cure, killed those who deserved it, but i still have max paragon, maybe because in conversations bottom-right option just tells people to go **** themselves so i don't choose that =/

Also it's ridiculous that Paragon actions let dangerous criminals go if they ask him nicely, a Paragon should believe in justice. Though i really do prefer to let judgement lie with authorities if the option is present.

[Il Divo]

MartinDN wrote...

 So im playing my last playthrough now of me1 to 2 before 3 is released as pure renegade...its so difficult, ive just done noveria and my god killing the queen was SO sad, i had to skip some of that dialogue, i mean sure its only a game but i just dont know how i can finish this.

I was enjoying playing renegade up to this point, how do you deal with this ?

Before I played Overlord, which I downloaded two days ago, I would have told you that no renegade decision really caused me to doubt myself. Well, the David situation managed to change that. For the first time, I couldn't bring myself to hit the Renegade button, despite it being consistent with my Shepard's mindset.  

[Ahglock]

I have no problem on the big decisions being renegade. Killing the queen, no problem. Oh wait you are from a species that breeds absurdly quickly like the krogan and nearly wiped out the galaxy and I am supposed to just take it on faith that you are actually a good guy. Yeah, I'll pass. I mean if they gave us other options like turn her over to the alliance so we can isolate her and her people on a remote planet then fine. But the choice between let her go and kill her, I have no problem killing her.

It is the small jerk for no reason choices I can't do. I don't treat friends like crap for no reason.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
We didn't attack everyone on sight back then.

The Mexica and the Incas, among other indigenous people want to have a serious word with you.

That wasn't "on sight". The hostilities started later, after we found they have GOLD!

And we aren't suceptible to species-wide mind-control.

 
Religious dogmas.
I am anything but anti-religious, but you have to accept that leaders used religion as an excuse for many wars. That's what I am referring to by Medieval times. Throughout the known world.

that is not mind-control....

[AgitatedLemon]

Ahglock wrote...

I have no problem on the big decisions being renegade. Killing the queen, no problem. Oh wait you are from a species that breeds absurdly quickly like the krogan and nearly wiped out the galaxy and I am supposed to just take it on faith that you are actually a good guy. Yeah, I'll pass. I mean if they gave us other options like turn her over to the alliance so we can isolate her and her people on a remote planet then fine. But the choice between let her go and kill her, I have no problem killing her.

It is the small jerk for no reason choices I can't do. I don't treat friends like crap for no reason.

*rubs temples, accompanied by a deep sigh*

The overload of dumb in the bold is just... Gah.

[King Minos]

It's easy this way.

If you have a renegade choice and a renegade interupt pops up but you scared of being evil.

Think of yourself renegade interupting Didymos, Phaedon, LPPrince, Stanley Woo, Chris Priestly or StephanieBengal. It's satisfying to think i just shoved one of them out of a window.

Ha. Ha. This post is half serious.

Modifié par King Minos, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:44 .

[Il Divo]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I have no problem on the big decisions being renegade. Killing the queen, no problem. Oh wait you are from a species that breeds absurdly quickly like the krogan and nearly wiped out the galaxy and I am supposed to just take it on faith that you are actually a good guy. Yeah, I'll pass. I mean if they gave us other options like turn her over to the alliance so we can isolate her and her people on a remote planet then fine. But the choice between let her go and kill her, I have no problem killing her.

It is the small jerk for no reason choices I can't do. I don't treat friends like crap for no reason.

*rubs temples, accompanied by a deep sigh*

The overload of dumb in the bold is just... Gah.

I don't see it. Admittedly, Mass Effect 1 is idiotic because it doesn't allow Shepard the option to simply leave the Queen in her cage. But his reasoning is sound. We have little to no details regarding how the Rachni operate, beyond being aware that (up until this point) every single one has been hostile and attempted to destroy other organics. Sure, the Queen proved she had some degree of sentience, but that alone is not enough for me to take it on good faith that her intentions are noble.

[Ahglock]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I have no problem on the big decisions being renegade. Killing the queen, no problem. Oh wait you are from a species that breeds absurdly quickly like the krogan and nearly wiped out the galaxy and I am supposed to just take it on faith that you are actually a good guy. Yeah, I'll pass. I mean if they gave us other options like turn her over to the alliance so we can isolate her and her people on a remote planet then fine. But the choice between let her go and kill her, I have no problem killing her.

It is the small jerk for no reason choices I can't do. I don't treat friends like crap for no reason.

*rubs temples, accompanied by a deep sigh*

The overload of dumb in the bold is just... Gah.

Explain one area where what I said is wrong?  Oh wait you can't because the overload of dumb was 100% correct.  The rachni were on a murderous rampage not some of them but pretty much all of them were and all Sheaprd has is the Queens word on the subject that it was all just their minds being clouded or whatever.  So your "smart" decision is to unleash that potential on the galaxy again instead of taking a single life. 

Modifié par Ahglock, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:48 .

[GodWood]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
I have no problem on the big decisions being renegade. Killing the queen, no problem. Oh wait you are from a species that breeds absurdly quickly like the krogan and nearly wiped out the galaxy and I am supposed to just take it on faith that you are actually a good guy. Yeah, I'll pass. I mean if they gave us other options like turn her over to the alliance so we can isolate her and her people on a remote planet then fine. But the choice between let her go and kill her, I have no problem killing her.

It is the small jerk for no reason choices I can't do. I don't treat friends like crap for no reason.

*rubs temples, accompanied by a deep sigh*

The overload of dumb in the bold is just... Gah.

Amusingly this is what I did when I read your response.

Perspective.

[AgitatedLemon]

Il Divo wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I have no problem on the big decisions being renegade. Killing the queen, no problem. Oh wait you are from a species that breeds absurdly quickly like the krogan and nearly wiped out the galaxy and I am supposed to just take it on faith that you are actually a good guy. Yeah, I'll pass. I mean if they gave us other options like turn her over to the alliance so we can isolate her and her people on a remote planet then fine. But the choice between let her go and kill her, I have no problem killing her.

It is the small jerk for no reason choices I can't do. I don't treat friends like crap for no reason.

*rubs temples, accompanied by a deep sigh*

The overload of dumb in the bold is just... Gah.

I don't see it. Admittedly, Mass Effect 1 is idiotic because it doesn't allow Shepard the option to simply leave the Queen in her cage. But his reasoning is sound. We have little to no details regarding how the Rachni operate, beyond being aware that (up until this point) every single one has been hostile and attempted to destroy other organics. Sure, the Queen proved she had some degree of sentience, but that alone is not enough for me to take it on good faith that her intentions are noble.

Maybe it's just me, but when I re-play through a game where I already know something, but the protagonist doesn't, I'll break the RP for a bit and make a choice based on the metagame, if the choice is large enough to warrant it.

The rachni aren't inherently hostile. The ones fought on Noveria were driven insane by being kept away from the queen. IIRC, the queen herself tells you to kill all of them. The only reason the rachni were hostile during the rachni wars were because of indoctrination. The queen notes this on Illium ("The same darkness you battle now, soured the song sung by the rachni many centuries ago")

Whenever someone says "Well, she would have said anything!!", I facepalm. It just contradicts the evidence that already know for fact, even if that knowledge came at a later date.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:56 .

[Ahglock]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Maybe it's just me, but when I re-play through a game where I already know something, but the protagonist doesn't, I'll break the RP for a bit and make a choice based on the metagame.

The rachni aren't inherently hostile. The ones fought on Noveria were driven insane by being kept away from the queen. IIRC, the queen herself tells you to kill them.

Whenever someone says "Well, she would have said anything!!", I facepalm. It just contradicts the evidence that already know for fact, even if that knowledge came at a later date.

That is called metagaming and is an act of breaking roleplaying .  In a roleplaying game you are supposed to make the decisions like your shepard would given the information he has on hand.  

[GodWood]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Whenever someone says "Well, she would have said anything!!", I facepalm. It just contradicts the evidence that already know for fact, even if that knowledge came at a later date.

Surely you see why this is stupid?

Surely!?

[Il Divo]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Maybe it's just me, but when I re-play through a game where I already know something, but the protagonist doesn't, I'll break the RP for a bit and make a choice based on the metagame.

The rachni aren't inherently hostile. The ones fought on Noveria were driven insane by being kept away from the queen. IIRC, the queen herself tells you to kill them.

Whenever someone says "Well, she would have said anything!!", I facepalm. It just contradicts the evidence that already know for fact, even if that knowledge came at a later date.

And that's exactly what I don't want my character doing. As much as possible, I am against metagaming. That's one (of many) reasons that I thought Mass Effect 1's side quests were so weak, since the only justification would be to metagame that Saren will never reach Ilos until Shepard follows him. A large part of how I define my Shepard is what he knows at the time he is making the decision. Using knowledge he does not have at the time is absurd. If we followed that, I would be doing paragon-focused playthroughs, since they tend to have more positive outcomes for the player.

Modifié par Il Divo, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:57 .

[KBomb]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Because your reasoning is stupid.  At least Saphra tries to find a real reason.    I can play other games if I want to do stupid things for no reason.  Even though I don't agree with them at least the other renegades have some reasoning where it isn't for the lulz.  Now shooting Conrad Verner in the foot for the lulz I totally get, that scene actualy is funny.  Killing the rachni queen for a stupid reason and thinking it is funny is stupid.  Now killing her because you think she may be a threat I can understand (don't agree with it but I understand).  So yeah your reasoning is facepalm worthy.

And as figured, you missed the point I was trying to make. Perhaps the rose-colored glasses you seem to be wearing is obstructing your view. I have about ten playthroughs, the majority of which the queen is well and alive.

The point I was trying to make is this: It’s a video game, ffs. It doesn’t matter why anyone kills her. Why do you care if someone has a reason for doing it? If I wanted to kill her because I found her unpleasant, you shouldn’t waste one thought in the process of my reasoning. I don’t’ care why you left her alive or why anyone else killed her. Doesn’t change my gaming experience.

It really amuses me how many (not all, of course) paragons worry over the reasoning renegades have for making “douche” decisions. Whenever a thread is made there is always some paragon player who comes in with some childish statement about renegades being whiners or compensating for the love they missed as a child and then when a renegade responds, it's because they are butthurt . It’s juvenile and self-righteous. Renegades put in as many hours in ME as paragons do. Most of them probably think out their decisions as carefully as paragons do. They are concerned that their time and decisions are going to be wasted. I don’t blame them. 

 I make a lot of paragon choices, but the one thing I don’t do is try to make someone who doesn’t feel bad or inferior. Maybe you and a few others should start respecting the opinions and choices of others and if you did, these asinine threads would cease to exist.

KotorEffect2 wrote…
Killing the rachni queen for a stupid reason and thinking it is funny is stupid.

Again, it’s a video game. If someone wants to shell out $60 and kill half of the Citadel because it’s “fun”, that is their choice because it’s a video game in which they hope to enjoy. Get off your soap box.

Modifié par KBomb, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:58 .

[DaJe]

Why would you play full "renegade" if you don't like it? For example my last Shepard has become more and more bad ass and insulting to bad people like mercenaries, slavers etc. but still made the reasonable big decisions. Don't give this superficial paragon, renegade system more power than it deserves.
Make decisions from a roleplaying point of view and not by colors.

[AgitatedLemon]

Ahglock wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Maybe it's just me, but when I re-play through a game where I already know something, but the protagonist doesn't, I'll break the RP for a bit and make a choice based on the metagame.

The rachni aren't inherently hostile. The ones fought on Noveria were driven insane by being kept away from the queen. IIRC, the queen herself tells you to kill them.

Whenever someone says "Well, she would have said anything!!", I facepalm. It just contradicts the evidence that already know for fact, even if that knowledge came at a later date.

That is called metagaming and is an act of breaking roleplaying .  In a roleplaying game you are supposed to make the decisions like your shepard would given the information he has on hand.  

When I know for a fact "Well, she can become useful later", I'm willing to break my suspension of belief for 3 seconds to hit the dialogue button.

Does it make my choice any less valid? No.

[GodWood]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Does it make my choice any less valid? No.

But it does make your opinion in this discussion useless.

[rapscallioness]

As far as the Rachni Queen, I think Kotor mentioned this already, but she is innocent. She had nothing to do with the Rachni Wars. You cannot hold her responsible for what her ancestors did.

The Rachni ability to quickly reproduce, and their mental capabilities is not a crime in and of itself. It's how they choose to use their abilities that would make it either a crime, or a contribution.

We have no proof that the Rachni Queen on Noveria is going to behave the same way her ancestors did. Or that she even agrees with their actions. So all you're left with is an assumption.

An assumption of what she might do based upon what her ancestors did, but she is not her ancestors. And an assumption is not enough to justify killing her, and effectively ending an entire species.

We have absolutely no proof of what this particular Rachni's future choices will be. So, the decision to kill her is not based on logic. It's based on a very real emotion. And that emotion is fear. You're afraid of her. You're afraid of what she might do, not what she has done.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:02 .

[mitthrawuodo]

Ahglock wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I have no problem on the big decisions being renegade. Killing the queen, no problem. Oh wait you are from a species that breeds absurdly quickly like the krogan and nearly wiped out the galaxy and I am supposed to just take it on faith that you are actually a good guy. Yeah, I'll pass. I mean if they gave us other options like turn her over to the alliance so we can isolate her and her people on a remote planet then fine. But the choice between let her go and kill her, I have no problem killing her.

It is the small jerk for no reason choices I can't do. I don't treat friends like crap for no reason.

*rubs temples, accompanied by a deep sigh*

The overload of dumb in the bold is just... Gah.

Explain one area where what I said is wrong?  Oh wait you can't because the overload of dumb was 100% correct.  The rachni were on a murderous rampage not some of them but pretty much all of them were and all Sheaprd has is the Queens word on the subject that it was all just their minds being clouded or whatever.  So your "smart" decision is to unleash that potential on the galaxy again instead of taking a single life. 

what about the fact that they may have been controlled by the reapers (probably were) and so aren't a villian but a victim

[Ahglock]

Il Divo wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Maybe it's just me, but when I re-play through a game where I already know something, but the protagonist doesn't, I'll break the RP for a bit and make a choice based on the metagame.

The rachni aren't inherently hostile. The ones fought on Noveria were driven insane by being kept away from the queen. IIRC, the queen herself tells you to kill them.

Whenever someone says "Well, she would have said anything!!", I facepalm. It just contradicts the evidence that already know for fact, even if that knowledge came at a later date.

And that's exactly what I don't want my character doing. As much as possible, I am against metagaming. That's one (of many) reasons that I thought Mass Effect 1's side quests were so weak, since the only justification would be to metagame that Saren will never reach Ilos until Shepard follows him. A large part of how I define my Shepard is what he knows at the time he is making the decision. Using knowledge he does not have at the time is absurd. If we followed that, I would be doing paragon-focused playthroughs, since they tend to have more positive outcomes for the player.

Yeah I tend to do all the siedequests I can as soon as possible so I can justify doing them instead of stopping Saren/Collectors.  At least they vocalized in ME2 a we need to get stronger concept.