437 réponses à ce sujet

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Wrong place to ask. Many here call themselves renegade because they choose from the bottom half of the 'wheel. But when faced with the most trivial of consequence, they fall apart like a house of cards.

Since when?

Some of us are frustrated because so far in Mass Effect every Renegade sacrifice has been for nothing and every gamble taken by the Paragon has paid. It's bad game balance and it hampers their ability to take the universe seriously.

I'm fine with bad things happening to Renegades, but bad things should happen to the other side too. Ultimately there should be good AND bad consequences for the decisions you make. It doesn't need to be all or nothing.

However, $1000 says that even if you don't ignore this post you'll completely forget about it and repeat your ignorant lie the next time the topic is brought up.

I've been down this road many times but I'll do it again, and I'll keep saying this until someone can change my opinion with an argument that's worth a damn.

The one repeating ignorant lies are the posters who repeatedly make the false claim that "paragon always wins." Let's look only at the decisions from ME1 that were important enough to make the cut for ME Genesis as they played out so far, in order...

-- Romance: Ash and Liara can be pursued as a renegade (Liara thanks to a convenient bug). Kaidan can be convinced to change his world views by a renegade femshep, and pursued.
-- Rachni: does not exist in a bubble as many claim, your decision is acknowledged in a news report with the reporter saying of the hot labs: "Fortunately, no living rachni were thought to have resulted from the experiment." The word "fortunately" implies something positive, so it's basically a pat-on-the-back. If that's not enough validation, then you're basically asking for "have your cake and eat it" outcomes, which is rather hypocritical considering who here likes to rail on the other side for that very reason. I mean, what more can they do with that choice? The damn thing is dead, as can be just about everyone else on Noveria.
-- Wrex: can be saved as a renegade, and a paragon player can lose him too.
-- VS: personal preference, not applicable. Happens to every player.
-- Council: if saved, they basically spend the time in ME2 telling you what an idiot you are. You can also get on their bad side at the end of the meeting, which is not a risk that those who sacrificed them will need to worry about. Spectre status can be still be had if Anderson is councilor, but having it had 0 impact on the game aside from throwaway lines that are changed based on your status.
-- Councilor: personal preference, not applicable. It's canonized by ME3 anyway.

And that's it. That's the big choice and consequence we've seen up to this point. Now where are these major victories/failures you speak of? You may notice the word choice of "trivial" in my first post, and thanks for proving it by the way, in more ways than one.

And did any of those things dictate the player's success at completing ME2? The answer is no.


Second, the idea that Paragon decisions being wrong to make the Renegade right is flat-out metagame thinking, from a side that claims to be "above" that style of play. It's as if Shepard is supposed to think, "In some alternate reality where I do not exist, the freed rachni queen turned hostile and massacred innocent people! That's how I know I'm right!"

It's a stupid premise to begin with, and only exists on BSN where posters have the dire need to say "I told you so" about their decisions to other people rather than make choices based on principle and stand behind them. It's actually perfectly doable even if no decision were to go your way. My reasons for releasing the rachni queen doesn't change with a good or bad outcome from the decision I made, nor should it. 


I've played several different renegade careers and have not seen "Renegade Shepard" to be cheated as many complainers claim it is. Or for that matter, less enjoyable. Only thing I can think of is selling the geth salvage to Cerberus, but what can I say? It was your own damn choice not to activate it.

It always, always comes back to the same thing.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:14 .

[Ieldra]

MartinDN wrote...
So im playing my last playthrough now of me1 to 2 before 3 is released as pure renegade...its so difficult, ive just done noveria and my god killing the queen was SO sad, i had to skip some of that dialogue, i mean sure its only a game but i just dont know how i can finish this.

I was enjoying playing renegade up to this point, how do you deal with this ?

Killing the rachni queen is a decision I never take. I always end up re-loading after I've done that.

But in general, if you can justify a Renegade decision on the grounds of pragmatism, you can take it and it doesn't make your Shepard a jerk. I envision that my Shepard is not at all happy about having to make those decisions, but especially after the Sovereign encounter, it's sometimes a bitter necessity in the face of the threat you're facing. I even wrote a short fanfic how my Shepard is haunted by the death of Kate Bowman, even while knowing he would make the same decision again.

You can play Renegade Shepard as an unsung hero, a man/woman who does the dirty things because they must be done, who does not expect to be loved for it but who sacrifices the love of others for the greater good. He/she knows the galaxy will not thank him for it after he's done. That doesn't change his mind, but it's reason for some melancholy. The sadness you as the player feel when you do these things, that's what Shepard feels more intensely. The acceptance, against everything the rest of humanity desperately wants to believe, that he's living in a universe where they're necessary, that separates him from the rest of humanity, and rarely does he find a kindred soul who understands that he's not a heartless killer.

That's how I play my Renegon.

Edit:
About the controversy about the consequences of Renegade decisions:

The problem is this: Renegade decisions have built-in undesirable consequences Paragon decisions do not have. Which means, they would plausibly only be taken if their projected benefit cancels out their undesirable consequences or more. Which means, they need a higher benefit to appear justified than the Paragon decisions. Of course there is always uncertainty in the projected consequences, but if Renegade decisions *always* result in the same benefit, then, if you put their built-in undesirable consequences into the equation, they are never pragmatically justified. That, in turn, makes the universe feel unrealistic, because a Renegade philosophy wouldn't exist if it didn't occasionally result in the projected net benefits. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:25 .

[Izhalezan]

Nu-Nu wrote...

I can never be a true paragon or renegade, and I could never kill the queen in any of my playthroughs.

In all my playthroughs the one person I could never kill was Wrex.

[Aaleel]

Even if I play a by any means necessary Shepard, I still have to have some rationale in making the renegade decision, and some cases I just can't find it aside from Shepard just being an ???. Which isn't the kind of Shepard I'm playing.

[DPSSOC]

MartinDN wrote...

So im playing my last playthrough now of me1 to 2 before 3 is released as pure renegade...its so difficult, ive just done noveria and my god killing the queen was SO sad, i had to skip some of that dialogue, i mean sure its only a game but i just dont know how i can finish this.

I was enjoying playing renegade up to this point, how do you deal with this ?

Just think to yourself, what would Wrex do, and everything will be alright.

KotorEffect3 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
We're all animals

Not in the context of this discussion.

One does not stop being an animal.

My dog doesn't know right from wrong.  I do.  My dog isn't capable of reason.  I am.  My dog can't be held accountable for his actions.  I can.

So your dog doesn't respond to "No, Bad, etc."?  You need to train your dog better.

Right and wrong are a matter of conditioning in humans just like with a trained animal.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Rationalize your actions and think of how much better your choices will be for everyone in the long run (assuming you don't metagame)

Your choices generaly aren't better for non-humans

Every choice has a winning and loosing side. The only question is which side you favor.

[Phaedon]

Well, my dog does know right from wrong.
It's also capable of some level of reason.

Can't really tell that that applies to all humans I know.

[mineralica]

Izhalezan wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

I can never be a true paragon or renegade, and I could never kill the queen in any of my playthroughs.

In all my playthroughs the one person I could never kill was Wrex.

Strange people you are. In my... third from end ME1 playthrough I've left Kaidan at bomb site. Heartwarming cutscene included.

The only choice which is absent in my saves so far is exiled Tali - but that's oversight, I'll fix that at one of following playthroughs.

[KotorEffect3]

DPSSOC wrote...

MartinDN wrote...

So im playing my last playthrough now of me1 to 2 before 3 is released as pure renegade...its so difficult, ive just done noveria and my god killing the queen was SO sad, i had to skip some of that dialogue, i mean sure its only a game but i just dont know how i can finish this.

I was enjoying playing renegade up to this point, how do you deal with this ?

Just think to yourself, what would Wrex do, and everything will be alright.

KotorEffect3 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
We're all animals

Not in the context of this discussion.

One does not stop being an animal.

My dog doesn't know right from wrong.  I do.  My dog isn't capable of reason.  I am.  My dog can't be held accountable for his actions.  I can.

So your dog doesn't respond to "No, Bad, etc."?  You need to train your dog better.

Right and wrong are a matter of conditioning in humans just like with a trained animal.

Conditioning an  animal to obey your commands is not the same as reasoning with the animal.  A dog doesn't obey it's master because it is the right thing to do but because the dog has been conditioned to do so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

aksoileau wrote...

For me it's super easy to be a douche to Shepard's enemies, it's just so hard to do some of the renegade choices against your crew. Beating the crap out of Elias Kelham or letting Sidonis get sniped? Easy. Selling out Tali's dead dad and killing Samara? I can never do it.

I like it how Paragons like to ingore the oh-so-high principle of truth. Obscure and hide the facts! Whens Shep does it he is the Paragon of virtue. When TIM does it he 's is EEEEBIL!

[Chuvvy]

MartinDN wrote...

 So im playing my last playthrough now of me1 to 2 before 3 is released as pure renegade...its so difficult, ive just done noveria and my god killing the queen was SO sad, i had to skip some of that dialogue, i mean sure its only a game but i just dont know how i can finish this.

I was enjoying playing renegade up to this point, how do you deal with this ?

I wouldn't worry to much about the Rachni decision. They're basically giant cockroachs, gross.

Modifié par Slidell505, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:33 .

[Drone223]

mauro2222 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

This sad creature is showing signs of ignorance and naivety.

If you have any understanding of real life politics you'll understand my position better.

However I get the feeling you don't and that you aren't interested.

You know, thinking that the rest of the world hates you and wants to take your way of life sounds pretty paranoic.

Your thinking can be resumed into this.

Lets invade everyone with the justification that they can attack us in the future.

The better thing for humanity to do is be ready for the possibility that humanity will be on their own but however do not turn do offer's of help by alien's as they are great allies and there will be time's when humanity needs help

Modifié par Drone223, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Paragon in a nutshell:
The right thing at the wrong time
Renegade in a nutshell:
The wrong thing at the right time

I'd put this in my sig, but it's too big.

[Phaedon]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Conditioning an  animal to obey your commands is not the same as reasoning with the animal.  A dog doesn't obey it's master because it is the right thing to do but because the dog has been conditioned to do so.

Sociopaths are also conditioned to obey our normative ethics, at the very least through the legal system, not to mention deeper social control.

Animals do have collective empathy. Especially your dog cares about you, not just if you'll feed it or not. There's a reason that dogs don't act like wolves, or that animals sometimes tend to deserted babies of other species. 

Either Evolution wasn't too kind to people who aren't compassionate, or they corrupted themselves to that point, which is infinitely worse.

So, yes, we are all animals because we belong under the Animalia kingdom.
Yes, we are social animals. Aristotle was right.
No, we are not the only social animals.
Yes, some people choose to be worse than animals.

Any further assertion about how "Humans are all animals" is faux intellectualist and overdramatic.

Modifié par Phaedon, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:37 .

[KotorEffect3]

Slidell505 wrote...

MartinDN wrote...

 So im playing my last playthrough now of me1 to 2 before 3 is released as pure renegade...its so difficult, ive just done noveria and my god killing the queen was SO sad, i had to skip some of that dialogue, i mean sure its only a game but i just dont know how i can finish this.

I was enjoying playing renegade up to this point, how do you deal with this ?

I wouldn't worry to much about the Rachni decision. They're basically giant cockroachs, gross.

So you base your rachni decision on their phyisiological appearence?

[AgitatedLemon]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

MartinDN wrote...

 So im playing my last playthrough now of me1 to 2 before 3 is released as pure renegade...its so difficult, ive just done noveria and my god killing the queen was SO sad, i had to skip some of that dialogue, i mean sure its only a game but i just dont know how i can finish this.

I was enjoying playing renegade up to this point, how do you deal with this ?

I wouldn't worry to much about the Rachni decision. They're basically giant cockroachs, gross.

So you base your rachni decision on their phyisiological appearence?

That's the best way to determine if you should commit genocide on a race or not.

I mean, look at the holocaust.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Conditioning an  animal to obey your commands is not the same as reasoning with the animal.  A dog doesn't obey it's master because it is the right thing to do but because the dog has been conditioned to do so.

Dogs are smarter than you think.
Humans should really give more respect to animals....


But aside from that, I don't recall either dogs or humans having a history of attacking everyone on sight. Or being exceptionally prone to species-wide indoctrination.

[Annoyed Dragon]

My view is I agree with a majority of Paragon choices and agree with a few Renegade choices. :innocent:

The Paragon approach is close to real world politics you have negotiate to gain alliances, sacrifice for everyone’s gain and ensure mutual understanding of each others cultures. The aliens in Mass Effect will respect you and know you will honour your word to them.


The Renegade approach you either kill or threaten those who don't agree with you and you view humans first without thinking of the consequence to others. Frankly I think alien allies will probably try to kill you since you are a danger to everyone around you when consider what said in a magazine recently.

Modifié par Annoyed Dragon, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:43 .

[KotorEffect3]

The whole animal/human discussion has gotten sidetracked. My orginal point that it was kind of pointless for Saphra to compare the rachni queen to a lion.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I like it how Paragons like to ingore the oh-so-high principle of truth. Obscure and hide the facts! Whens Shep does it he is the Paragon of virtue. When TIM does it he 's is EEEEBIL!

I do agree with you on that.  The playthrough I turned in Tali's dad was conceptually my purest Paragon playthrough.

Though Bioware does do it's best to make you feel like a horrible person for not covering up war crimes.

[omgodzilla]

I like Renegades

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Dogs are smarter than you think.
Humans should really give more respect to animals....


But aside from that, I don't recall either dogs or humans having a history of attacking everyone on sight. Or being exceptionally prone to species-wide indoctrination.

It's always nice to skip Medieval times and the Age of Exploration from debates.

omgodzilla wrote...

I like Renegades

 
I like Ice Cream.

Modifié par Phaedon, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:46 .

[Ramus Quaritch]

The things is, Bioware equates Renegade with being a dick. Much of the Renegade dialogue is you being an ****. Mordin's logic in regards to the Genophage is what I could consider "pure" Renegade. It is legitimately you/him making a morally disagreeable choice but one that is necessary for the greater good. If you kill the Rachni Queen, the problem is that you basically yell "Die mother****er!" like a bloodthirsty thug rather than justifying your choice with the fact that you can't know whether the Rachni will become hostile later and invade the Citadel. The only times I use renegade are when someone is a jerk to me first and I'm laying the smackdown on them (like the Batarian bartender) or for awesome Renegade interrupts.

[Nu-Nu]

Izhalezan wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

I can never be a true paragon or renegade, and I could never kill the queen in any of my playthroughs.

In all my playthroughs the one person I could never kill was Wrex.

Wrex is just too cool!

mineralica wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

I can never be a true paragon or renegade, and I could never kill the queen in any of my playthroughs.

In all my playthroughs the one person I could never kill was Wrex.

Strange people you are. In my... third from end ME1 playthrough I've left Kaidan at bomb site. Heartwarming cutscene included.

The only choice which is absent in my saves so far is exiled Tali - but that's oversight, I'll fix that at one of following playthroughs.

I left Kaiden with the bomb in one of my playthroughs, out of 4, that was hard! I just wanted to see what Ashley brought to ME3.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:52 .

[Cuddlezarro]

I have zero problems playing pure renegade but I find it just as stupid playing pure renegade just as i find it stupid playing pure paragon... so most of my playthroughs are renagons (though I tend to use alot of neutral choices as well)