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"Gone, just like the warden"


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#76
BioFan (Official)

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erilben wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If your warden is dead in your import, then he remains dead, and the Warden referenced by Lelianna is the Orlesian Warden-Commander.


Going by this comment, that isn't true.

David Gaider wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...
The only thing I didn't enjoy about it was the comment about how "The Warden is missing as well. That can't be coincidence". Uhm... no, because my Warden died.


She didn't say the Warden was missing. She said the Warden was gone.

Not gone in the same way, perhaps, but similarly beyond their reach.


The only connection between Hawke and the Warden is that both of their stories are over, so be ready to play a new protagonist for DA3 .




ahhhh i see, yet bioware has hinted at the possibilit that we MIGHT get to see the warden again. <3

#77
Rifneno

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We actually do have a clue on the warden.  It's not much of one, but it's a chekhov's gun if ever there was one.  Remember at the end of Witch Hunt?  I don't know how it goes when you take other options as I always talk to Morrigan friendly but not romantically and wish her well before we part ways.  Anyway, she says that she left something for you and the camera pans to a wrapped package for a moment.  We never find out what it was.  That really pissed me off at the time since it's knowledge our controlled character has so we should get it too.  But looking back, I have to assume that whatever she left for the warden plays a role in their disappearance.

Also, I doubt Flemeth is kidnapping them and keeping them at her secret Justice League lair somewhere for one reason.  She tells a warden that parts amicably with her that they'll never see her again.  Flemeth plays word games, twists meanings, dodges like a bloody mongoose, but I can't think of a single instance of her outright lying.  Now, that doesn't preclude the possibility that she just sneaks up from behind and kills them, but that doesn't seem her style.  And unlikely to fit her agenda from the various theories we have about her.

I think the reason Bioware has had heroes disappear in the past is because they didn't want the epilogue to tell you what your character is doing.  Leaving it vague lets you head canon all you want.  But the disappearances in DA aren't restricted to player characters.  As others noted, Maric disappeared.  Lost at sea supposedly.  But he's not the only one, just one of the more recent and higher profile.  The Black Fox and Dane also both disappeared.  Probably others too, just those are the ones I can remember.

#78
whykikyouwhy

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 Well, not to disagree, but "you'll never see me again" may be literal - and while Flemeth may not be sneaking up to club the Warden upside the head, or slipping him/her a mickey, she may be whisking the hero off to somewhere for safe-keeping (or sending a mysterious "daughter" to do so).  

Of course, I could just like the idea of Flemeth plotting some machinations of some sort. (She would have a Fortress of Solitude, by the way.  ^_^)

#79
Lasien

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I Still think there are going to be at least 3 Heroes that are tangled up in whatever Flemeth is trying to do. The Warden (Orleisian if yours is dead), Hawke, and whoever is the star of DA3. And maybe a fourth game character to round them all up. (The Old-god child, maybe ;D)

#80
Tatinger

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Lasien wrote...

I Still think there are going to be at least 3 Heroes that are tangled up in whatever Flemeth is trying to do. The Warden (Orleisian if yours is dead), Hawke, and whoever is the star of DA3. And maybe a fourth game character to round them all up. (The Old-god child, maybe ;D)


As it turns out, The Old God Child is revealed to be your character in Baldur's Gate

Modifié par Tatinger, 01 février 2012 - 01:41 .


#81
Asch Lavigne

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Lasien wrote...

I Still think there are going to be at least 3 Heroes that are tangled up in whatever Flemeth is trying to do. The Warden (Orleisian if yours is dead), Hawke, and whoever is the star of DA3. And maybe a fourth game character to round them all up. (The Old-god child, maybe ;D)


You're forgetting that not everyone did the Dark Ritual and there are those that would be super pissed if it happened anyways if they didn't do it. The OGB is going to be a minor thing, If it was major and half of the players didn't have the OGB it'd be a different game and they're not going to make two versions of the same game.

#82
Guest_FallTooDovahkiin_*

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My guess would be on the mirror that Merril tries to remake. I never let her do it, even on romance play throughs cause I know that it killed Tamlen and probably could of killed my Dalish Elf.

But then if Merril destroys it, then what happens then? The mirror is destroyed. That leaves it out of question.

I don't see Flemeth doing anything with my Warden or Hawke. She has no reason too..no? And when Flemeth takes over another body, wouldn't you think she would go after Morrigan.

But I sided with the Mages, on my Mage PT. I also romanced Anders. So if anything, shes in hiding with Anders.

#83
Rifneno

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

Of course, I could just like the idea of Flemeth plotting some machinations of some sort. (She would have a Fortress of Solitude, by the way. &nbsp;^_^)


How's it a Fortress of Solitude when it's full of kidnapees? :)

Asch Lavigne wrote...

You're forgetting that not everyone did the Dark Ritual and there are those that would be super pissed if it happened anyways if they didn't do it. The OGB is going to be a minor thing, If it was major and half of the players didn't have the OGB it'd be a different game and they're not going to make two versions of the same game.


FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

My guess would be on the mirror that Merril tries to remake. I never let her do it, even on romance play throughs cause I know that it killed Tamlen and probably could of killed my Dalish Elf.

But then if Merril destroys it, then what happens then? The mirror is destroyed. That leaves it out of question.


You guys... How do I put this delicately... I'm sorry to say, the DA writers don't give a damn about your choices. If they want to bring characters back from the dead, take back epilogues, totally rewrite character personalities or whatever, they'll do it. So these things are still very real possibilities.

#84
TEWR

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Gah! Why, why must I always be drawn to threads that discuss Merrill?

Not that it's a bad thing, but I'm just wondering why anytime a thread where Merrill is discussed happens I always end up being drawn to it.

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

My guess would be on the mirror that Merril tries to remake. I never let her do it, even on romance play throughs cause I know that it killed Tamlen and probably could of killed my Dalish Elf.

But then if Merril destroys it, then what happens then? The mirror is destroyed. That leaves it out of question.


Incorrect (that feels weird to say). The Eluvian didn't kill Tamlen. The taint did. Well, technically Mahariel did in Dalish playthroughs.

But anyway, the Eluvian isn't to blame. The taint is. And Merrill cleansed it of its taint by using blood magic to amplify the power of the healing magic Marethari had taught her. And Marethari's magic, as we all know, was able to keep the taint at bay in Mahariel in its unamplified form.

Additionally, I wouldn't bank on Merrill's Eluvian being the one that matters. A separate Eluvian will certainly be important, but Merrill's is either broken or intact, not functional, and abandoned.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 février 2012 - 01:48 .


#85
whykikyouwhy

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@Rifneno - *Flemeth* would be in the Fortress of Solitude. I didn't say she'd be cozying up with the heroes there. (They're in the phantom zone - which may or may not be a parallel realm to the Fade.)

I wouldn't say that the writers don't care about our choices - but with the sheer amount of combinations of choice/path/consequence/etc across all playthroughs, I'm sure it's quite the juggling act to narrow the narrative down to something in the middle that may satisfy all players to some degree. I'm sure they'll find a way to tie up most of the loose ends though.

#86
Rifneno

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Incorrect (that feels weird to say). The Eluvian didn't kill Tamlen. The taint did. Well, technically Mahariel did in Dalish playthroughs.

But anyway, the Eluvian isn't to blame. The taint is. And Merrill cleansed it of its taint by using blood magic to amplify the power of the healing magic Marethari had taught her. And Marethari's magic, as we all know, was able to keep the taint at bay in Mahariel in its unamplified form.

Additionally, I wouldn't bank on Merrill's Eluvian being the one that matters. A separate Eluvian will certainly be important, but Merrill's is either broken or intact, unfunctional, and abandoned.


I don't think we can say for sure either way what's 'to blame' because we know virtually nothing about the eluvians. Given the air of mystery around the eluvians, it's quite possible that they play a vital role in the taint. Especially that one. Andraste's feminine products, ESPECIALLY THAT ONE! Remember that many speculated that what Tamlen described could easily have been The Black City.

Actually, now that I think about it... what if that demon didn't really help Merrill cleanse the eluvian of the taint? Maybe he told her how to break it, severe its link with where ever it goes, and being cut off from the corruption on the other side of its link is what made it stop puking out taint? That would explain why she couldn't fix it and how that demon taught her a spell that's otherwise believed to be impossible (removal of darkspawn taint). Plus it's just the kind of dick move with word games demons love to play.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I wouldn't say that the writers don't care about our choices - but with the sheer amount of combinations of choice/path/consequence/etc across all playthroughs, I'm sure it's quite the juggling act to narrow the narrative down to something in the middle that may satisfy all players to some degree. I'm sure they'll find a way to tie up most of the loose ends though.


No, they just don't care. There's no reason whatsoever that they had to use Anders and Justice, who could both easily die in Awakening, for the part they played in DA2. They could've made a new character to fit that role, but they disregarded player choices and use them anyway. Very likely ditto for Leliana. I seriously doubt there's any real reason that the seeker in DA2 just had to be the same bard that may have traveled with the Warden. Lots of epilogues were taken back under the guise of "epilogues are just rumors." No they're not. If they were, then some epilogue slides wouldn't have specifically stated that they were rumors. Which they did. It's just plain a retcon, and the writers don't have the guts to admit it. And then of course there's the choices in DA2 which ended up not to be real choices at all.

#87
dragonflight288

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I don't think we can say for sure either way what's 'to blame' because we know virtually nothing about the eluvians. Given the air of mystery around the eluvians, it's quite possible that they play a vital role in the taint. Especially that one. Andraste's feminine products, ESPECIALLY THAT ONE! Remember that many speculated that what Tamlen described could easily have been The Black City.

Actually, now that I think about it... what if that demon didn't really help Merrill cleanse the eluvian of the taint? Maybe he told her how to break it, severe its link with where ever it goes, and being cut off from the corruption on the other side of its link is what made it stop puking out taint? That would explain why she couldn't fix it and how that demon taught her a spell that's otherwise believed to be impossible (removal of darkspawn taint). Plus it's just the kind of dick move with word games demons love to play.


Duncan was able to sense the darkspawn taint in the mirror. He was able to sense the darkspawn taint in the Dalish Warden if that origin is played. Anders is a Grey Warden. He would be able to sense the taint. He was able to sense the Grey Wardens in the Deep Roads if we save our sibling's life.

Merrill has the Eluvian shard that was tainted for a decade. She was rebuilding an eluvian based on her research into eluvians and what she learned from the shard. She, and everyone in the alienage, were not tainted at all.

After a decade, compared to the thirty seconds for the Dalish Warden, that becomes more than enough proof for me that she succeeded in purifying the taint.

No, they just don't care. There's no reason whatsoever that they had to use Anders and Justice, who could both easily die in Awakening, for the part they played in DA2. They could've made a new character to fit that role, but they disregarded player choices and use them anyway. Very likely ditto for Leliana. I seriously doubt there's any real reason that the seeker in DA2 just had to be the same bard that may have traveled with the Warden. Lots of epilogues were taken back under the guise of "epilogues are just rumors." No they're not. If they were, then some epilogue slides wouldn't have specifically stated that they were rumors. Which they did. It's just plain a retcon, and the writers don't have the guts to admit it. And then of course there's the choices in DA2 which ended up not to be real choices at all.


I just read a new interview with David Gaider today. Don't know if it was today but it was recent.

He and his team of writers (one of them is new, replacing another who is on maternity leave) have to take into account our choices matching what is happening throughout Thedas. Some players did the Dark Ritual. So he said what happens in one play through would be different for a gamer than another who didn't. But because not everyone did, it becomes unrealistic to play the Old God Baby.

They have to consider large events, money costs to make the game, fan reactions to previous games, and then make decisions if all the little quests should follow through into the big picture of later games (DA 3, DA 4.) Large scale things like the Dark Ritual, letting the Architect live or not, will affect the world, but because not everyone did, they have to work with that.

It would take a staggering amount of time and money to take into consideration every single option a player may or may not have done through two games and Awakening when they have no real time frame for how long the series will last.

Gaider said Mass Effect went into from the beginning as a trilogy. The design team knew they had to tie things up or at least make mention of choices that already occurred. Dragon Age does not have the same set up for the games. They don't really know how many games will be required.

But he did say that the option to choose different races may be coming back. Individual origin stories, not likely, but the option to choose the race, a strong possibility. And he did say exploring the Kossith and the Qunari is being considered.

#88
Rifneno

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Duncan was able to sense the darkspawn taint in the mirror. He was able to sense the darkspawn taint in the Dalish Warden if that origin is played. Anders is a Grey Warden. He would be able to sense the taint. He was able to sense the Grey Wardens in the Deep Roads if we save our sibling's life.

Merrill has the Eluvian shard that was tainted for a decade. She was rebuilding an eluvian based on her research into eluvians and what she learned from the shard. She, and everyone in the alienage, were not tainted at all.

After a decade, compared to the thirty seconds for the Dalish Warden, that becomes more than enough proof for me that she succeeded in purifying the taint.


You misunderstand. I'm theorizing that the eluvian was never tainted. Rather, as a teleportation device it was linked to someplace that was tainted. Badly. Perhaps the Black City itself. And so it radiated the taint. The demon then gave Merrill a spell or ritual that would break the link to the matching eluvian that's festering in corruption. Now rendered an ordinary piece of glass, it no longer taints anything because it's not a portal to someplace knee-deep in it. By doing this, the demon all but guarantees that Merrill will come back and seek its assistance again because he knows the damn thing won't work.

Gaider said Mass Effect went into from the beginning as a trilogy. The design team knew they had to tie things up or at least make mention of choices that already occurred. Dragon Age does not have the same set up for the games. They don't really know how many games will be required.


In other words, ME's team has a decent amount of foresight. Yeah that sounds about right. It doesn't, however, explain the pointless character death retcons. Or in Cullen's case, psychotic murdering spree retcon.

#89
Ghidorah14

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Isnt it obvious?

The Warden threw a sexy party with Qunari strippers and invited Hawke over to sample his "taint."

8D

#90
dragonflight288

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You misunderstand. I'm theorizing that the eluvian was never tainted. Rather, as a teleportation device it was linked to someplace that was tainted. Badly. Perhaps the Black City itself. And so it radiated the taint. The demon then gave Merrill a spell or ritual that would break the link to the matching eluvian that's festering in corruption. Now rendered an ordinary piece of glass, it no longer taints anything because it's not a portal to someplace knee-deep in it. By doing this, the demon all but guarantees that Merrill will come back and seek its assistance again because he knows the damn thing won't work.


Oh. Sorry. You're right. I did misunderstand.

Hmmm....Witch Hunt also proves that wrong. When the Warden enters the ruin with the eluvian, there are several dalish elves who have been tainted and turned into ghouls there. The only thing bearing the taint is the shards of the eluvian. They're still tainted.

Of course...I admit it's possible they lead to the black city. Morrigan was adamant it lead to place beyond the Fade, however. From what I've seen in-game...who can say? I can't. Seems as plausible a theory as any other I've heard or thought up.

In other words, ME's team has a decent amount of foresight. Yeah that sounds about right. It doesn't, however, explain the pointless character death retcons. Or in Cullen's case, psychotic murdering spree retcon.


Can't argue there. I suppose Gaider was saying that the Dragon Age team went into this not knowing how big a project they were actually dealing with, and have to make sacrifices on smaller decisions for the sake of the greater story arch than customize an entire game to fit every decision by every race made by every gamer.

I'll try to find the interview again and post it. Gaider says it better than I do.

#91
Rifneno

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Oh. Sorry. You're right. I did misunderstand.

Hmmm....Witch Hunt also proves that wrong. When the Warden enters the ruin with the eluvian, there are several dalish elves who have been tainted and turned into ghouls there. The only thing bearing the taint is the shards of the eluvian. They're still tainted.

Of course...I admit it's possible they lead to the black city. Morrigan was adamant it lead to place beyond the Fade, however. From what I've seen in-game...who can say? I can't. Seems as plausible a theory as any other I've heard or thought up.


Unfortuantely I can't remember much in the specifics of Witch Hunt and I haven't gotten around to reinstalling DAO on this system. But isn't the eluvian there the one that Merrill took? If she just left a few shards of glass behind, they wouldn't have been cleansed by her ritual. Which is how it had to have taken place since Witch Hunt chronologically takes place between acts 2 and 3 of DA2. i.e. well after Merrill had taken whatever she took from that ruin to Sundermount and "cleansed" it.
Anyway, darkspawn aren't very easy to get rid of. It's feasible that there's still darkspawn around tainting people. Or that those are just leftovers from the original encounter. Sure, ghouls don't live that long, but on the other hand even the Dalish aren't retarded enough to keep letting people explore/hunt/whatever in that cave like 8 years afterwards. Which is the only other explanation. More likely, it's just gameplay mechanics because everyplace we go literally has to be full of stuff trying to kill us.
Anyway, it's just a theory on the spur of the moment. I'm not even sure if I believe it. :)

Can't argue there. I suppose Gaider was saying that the Dragon Age team went into this not knowing how big a project they were actually dealing with, and have to make sacrifices on smaller decisions for the sake of the greater story arch than customize an entire game to fit every decision by every race made by every gamer.

I'll try to find the interview again and post it. Gaider says it better than I do.


No, I understand the point. And it's a valid one to an extent. There must be some limitations because the story has to flow into the next one and if you gave us even one world-altering decision in each game then by game 5 you'd have to be designing a game for 16 significantly different worlds. I get that, and you'll never hear me complain that we end up not being able to influence the outcome of the mage/templar war for exactly that reason. I'm dismissive of it because it doesn't nearly explain away the writing complaints everyone had about DA2.

#92
whykikyouwhy

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But to be fair, the writing-related complaints have run the gamut - anything from import issues (some of which were due to bugs), to lackluster characters (something I don't agree with). I would venture to say that in many instances, writing is blamed when in fact, what the player is experiencing may be due to the much maligned dev cycle and how some story elements had to be cut. In the interview that dragonflight288 is referring to, Gaider does mention not being able to go back and explore/expand upon some things that then wound up seeming choppy (my word, and poor paraphrasing overall) in-game.

So too, some complaints may just stem from personal taste - some characters appeal to people, some don't; some plot arcs grab people, some don't, etc. What makes a good story can, on several levels, be purely subjective.

#93
Rifneno

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

But to be fair, the writing-related complaints have run the gamut - anything from import issues (some of which were due to bugs), to lackluster characters (something I don't agree with). I would venture to say that in many instances, writing is blamed when in fact, what the player is experiencing may be due to the much maligned dev cycle and how some story elements had to be cut. In the interview that dragonflight288 is referring to, Gaider does mention not being able to go back and explore/expand upon some things that then wound up seeming choppy (my word, and poor paraphrasing overall) in-game.

So too, some complaints may just stem from personal taste - some characters appeal to people, some don't; some plot arcs grab people, some don't, etc. What makes a good story can, on several levels, be purely subjective.


No.  The "we had to cut stuff" excuse flies like an anchor.  On Jupiter.  Anyone else remember all the complaints when Witch Hunt was announced as the final DAO DLC?  "You promised us 2 years of DLC and it's only been 1!"  And they were right, Bioware did promise 2 years of DLC with it.  The official response was "we didn't expect to be done with DA2 so soon."  Which lead to people being very weary (and rightfully so) at DA2 being done so quickly, so ahead of schedule.  The devs responded saying it really is "done" and that if they spent another 6 months on it, it wouldn't matter because there was nothing else they have for it.  Now they come back and give the standard "we had to cut stuff that would've made a big difference" excuse?  Good God.

There's a much simpler explanation.  They just plain did a ****** poor job.  These reasons like cutting stuff and limitations are something every game deals with.  Very few developers get to put every idea they'd like to into a game, and obviously everyone is bound by limitations.  We (the customers) are used to it.  We don't expect unlimited freedom.  We expect a reasonable amount, the amount that Bioware has given us many times before and in the case of Mass Effect still giving us.  We expect not to be given choices and then have our answer thrown away.  We got sick of that in Dragon Warrior on the NES when the princess kept repeating "But thou must!"  We expect not to have our choices and then taken back.  We know it's possible, because every other team seems capable of it.

Gah.  I want to get back to the disappearance theories.  I like thinking, I don't like feeling my blood pressure climb like a space shuttle.

#94
TEWR

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I don't think we can say for sure either way what's 'to blame' because we know virtually nothing about the eluvians. Given the air of mystery around the eluvians, it's quite possible that they play a vital role in the taint. Especially that one. Andraste's feminine products, ESPECIALLY THAT ONE! Remember that many speculated that what Tamlen described could easily have been The Black City.


And that speculation is wrong given that Tamlen flat out says he's seeing an underground city on the other side of the Eluvian. To assume he's seeing the Black City is sheer folly, given that the Black City isn't underground. It's floating.

And as I said Merrill used the healing magic Marethari taught her -- that kept the taint from progressing in Mahariel's body when Marethari used it in its normal form -- amplified by blood magic to cleanse the Eluvian.

To assume the demon swapped the links is entirely speculative and has no real basis for one to assume such a thing.

We know enough to know that Merrill having successfully cleansed it on her own was the case.

1) Marethari used special Elven healing magic on Mahariel without lyrium or blood magic. Mahariel's taint subsequently grew weaker, but was still present.

2) Marethari says that Merrill knows this same type of magic.

3) Merrill says that if she lyrium, she would've gotten the same results.

4) She doesn't say she used a particular spell. Just that she used blood magic. Blood magic can amplify normal magic.

#95
EmperorSahlertz

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Since everything in the Fade is a reflection of reality, it could be theorized that what Tamlen sees, is the physicals world Black City. Ground Zero for the Blight disease if you will.

Or it could "just" have been Arlathan. Which was consumed by the earth if memory serves.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 février 2012 - 03:54 .


#96
Rifneno

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And that speculation is wrong given that Tamlen flat out says he's seeing an underground city on the other side of the Eluvian. To assume he's seeing the Black City is sheer folly, given that the Black City isn't underground. It's floating.


Okay, let's review. An elf that's probably never seen a real city in his life is looking into a teleportation device that we don't have the slightest idea the workings of. The theory is that he's seeing a place that no one knows anything about, that exists in a world that's constantly changing on the whims of every spirit and demon that calls it home. And you want to flatly dismiss it because he said it's underground? You'll have to excuse me if I scoff at that. Here's a thought, maybe he assumed it was underground because there's no frickin' sun.

To assume the demon swapped the links is entirely speculative and has no real basis for one to assume such a thing.


A theory is speculation?!

#97
TEWR

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The Fade has a sun IIRC. Possibly a manifestation of what the spirits and demons saw in the minds of other people in an attempt to emulate those same thoughts. But a sun nevertheless.

I doubt the demons are suddenly going to go "Wait! Get rid of that big ball of fire!" for any reason, when everyone in Thedas acknowledges the fact that the sun is real.

They want to emulate the mortal realm. Maybe if people in Thedas went "There is no sun! That thing is evil!!!", then maybe they'd get rid of it.

And yes, I think the guy would know if a city is underground. No sun, rocks all around, etc.

A theory is speculation?!


LOL.

I have to say that I do appreciate your style of sarcasm/snark. Reminds me a lot of my own in my more sarcastic moments and that of one of the people I knew from high school, who would pretty much make sarcastic comments every few minutes.

He's quite successful at it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 06:26 .


#98
Rifneno

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Fade has a sun IIRC. Possibly a manifestation of what the spirits and demons saw in the minds of other people in an attempt to emulate those same thoughts. But a sun nevertheless.


Wha? Are you sure? O_o I know I remember this description of there being light but with no apparent source, no day or night... I could've sworn that was about the Fade in Dragon Age. Damn, now it's going to be bothering me what fantasy writing's magic realm I read that about.

They want to emulate the mortal realm. Maybe if people in Thedas went "There is no sun! That thing is evil!!!", then maybe they'd get rid of it.


Well, they emulate what they see in people's dreams. It's feasible that the sun wouldn't play a big part in people's dreams. Hell, good taste on the designers' part is the only reason that the Fade isn't full of orgies.

#99
EmperorSahlertz

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Desire Demons?

#100
dragonflight288

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Well, they emulate what they see in people's dreams. It's feasible that the sun wouldn't play a big part in people's dreams. Hell, good taste on the designers' part is the only reason that the Fade isn't full of orgies.


I once had a dream about a singing dancing hot dog bun after playing Pajama Sam when I was a kid. I'm trying to imagine how the Fade would be with that kind of image.