438 réponses à ce sujet

[Milady495a]

 I know this is a controversial topic. I would like to have a respectful debate among mature people, which may or may not share my point of view on the issue. I had been musing this question for a long time, and today I sat down and wrote a medium-sized blog post on it, which you may find here: 
http://hypercriticis...of-credibility/  - I shall highlight some of the questions here for the sake of brevity:

As a disclaimer: "Just in case I get misunderstood: I do not consider that bisexuality or homosexuality or any form of representation of minorities is wrong, quite the contrary. As a female, I am considered part of a minority in the gaming community, and I am sensitive towards these issues. My point is that Bioware didn't do anything spectacular by making all of the characters bisexual, and that this decision made the story less credible, challenging my suspension of disbelief."

"Instead of tackling the issue of representing minorities, Bioware took the safest approach: they made every character romanceable by both genders, destroying any pretence of verisimilitude in the process. This way they didn't need to assign any additional efforts to the creation of diversity, and everybody would be happy."

"Some people may argue that this is a fantasy world, and that writers might have imagined a world with different sexual attitudes than the ones we are accustomed to. This is wrong, because nothing in the world of Dragon Age speaks of bisexuality as being the common orientation of anybody, not even the companions. Their bisexuality is superficial, untackled and undiscussed. The sexuality of the townsfolk is mainly heterosexual -I cannot recall any same-sex couples, as a matter of fact, apart from those of the companions (Liara in DA1, Isabella when she suggests to you a threesome in DA1, Zevran in DA1). The all-bisexual array of characters is therefore a construct outside the context established by the narrative: it is an implausibility, and it was at no point suggested to be a matter of fact in the Dragon Age world."

"I can think of at least two ways of tackling this in a more satisfactory manner: 1) make your work bisexually-friendly (make a world in which bisexuality is common). Your story won't be as unlikely as it is, in terms of character personalities; 2) make your choice of a same-sex relationship different (more prominent perhaps) than the straight one, as to reflect the world you have developed (in which heterosexuality is still the norm); even a third one, if your budget allows it! 3) make homosexual characters to cater to the minority, as you did in KoTOR."

Second disclaimer: I consider much better to have all bisexual characters than all straight characters. Minorities cannot continue being disregarded in mainstream narratives. My only concern is that this was a superficial and not-so-bold move as it could have been. I was much more pleased by how they handled it in DA:O.

[whykikyouwhy]

There are several older threads on this topic, and it is a subject that crops up now and again. 
To respond to a few of your points...

Milady495a wrote...

 I know this is a controversial topic. I would like to have a respectful debate among mature people, which may or may not share my point of view on the issue. I had been musing this question for a long time, and today I sat down and wrote a medium-sized blog post on it, which you may find here: 
http://hypercriticis...of-credibility/  - I shall highlight some of the questions here for the sake of brevity:

As a disclaimer: "Just in case I get misunderstood: I do not consider that bisexuality or homosexuality or any form of representation of minorities is wrong, quite the contrary. As a female, I am considered part of a minority in the gaming community, and I am sensitive towards these issues. My point is that Bioware didn't do anything spectacular by making all of the characters bisexual, and that this decision made the story less credible, challenging my suspension of disbelief."

 
I don't know that anyone is touting the inclusion of s/s relationships in Bioware games as spectacular so much as they are calling it refreshing. At least that's how I look at it. It differs from what has been the norm in most video game romance arcs, so in that regard, I feel it's a step in the right direction.

Personally, I don't feel that allowing the LIs to react to a Hawke of either gender made the story less credible. It shifted focus away from gender - the key element with the romance arcs, to me, was the companion being able to love someone, to open themselves up to romance, despite whatever personal struggles or issues they were tackling. That doesn't diminish the relationship in any way, but merely looks at it from a different perspective.

 
"Instead of tackling the issue of representing minorities, Bioware took the safest approach: they made every character romanceable by both genders, destroying any pretence of verisimilitude in the process. This way they didn't need to assign any additional efforts to the creation of diversity, and everybody would be happy."

"Some people may argue that this is a fantasy world, and that writers might have imagined a world with different sexual attitudes than the ones we are accustomed to. This is wrong, because nothing in the world of Dragon Age speaks of bisexuality as being the common orientation of anybody, not even the companions. Their bisexuality is superficial, untackled and undiscussed. The sexuality of the townsfolk is mainly heterosexual -I cannot recall any same-sex couples, as a matter of fact, apart from those of the companions (Liara in DA1, Isabella when she suggests to you a threesome in DA1, Zevran in DA1). The all-bisexual array of characters is therefore a construct outside the context established by the narrative: it is an implausibility, and it was at no point suggested to be a matter of fact in the Dragon Age world."

 
If indeed any characters are bisexual (since no single character has referred to his/herself as that), it being "undiscussed" does not equate it to being superficial. Thedan society does not put as much emphasis on the gender of a partner/lover as it does on the class. The same could be said about someone who may identify as heterosexual - his or her gender is rarely an issue or a focal pointm except in some circumstances having to do with roles or functions in the society. I don't really see how something that simply isn't in the forefront of discussion topics implies that it either doesn't exist, or is false in any regard, or is implausible. 

As far as same sex couples, you had Wade and Herren in DA:O & DA:A.

 

"I can think of at least two ways of tackling this in a more satisfactory manner: 1) make your work bisexually-friendly (make a world in which bisexuality is common). Your story won't be as unlikely as it is, in terms of character personalities; 2) make your choice of a same-sex relationship different (more prominent perhaps) than the straight one, as to reflect the world you have developed (in which heterosexuality is still the norm); even a third one, if your budget allows it! 3) make homosexual characters to cater to the minority, as you did in KoTOR."

Second disclaimer: I consider much better to have all bisexual characters than all straight characters. Minorities cannot continue being disregarded in mainstream narratives. My only concern is that this was a superficial and not-so-bold move as it could have been. I was much more pleased by how they handled it in DA:O.

Again, I don't see the availability of the companions as LIs for a Hawke of either gender to be superficial. A character will react to Hawke's flirtation only if Hawke follows specific dialogue paths. At no point does Hawke know how the companions may identify themselves, or has a true handle on who the companions might find attractive. It's as much of a gamble as it would be flirting with someone IRL. And that doesn't cheapen the characters in any way, or make them less viable or believable. They are still unique creatures with their own backstories and plot arcs. And they are capable of love - that's the measurable unit right there.

The society in the DA-verse is different from our own modern one. It doesn't parallel any medieval society though it may draw from medieval influences, it does not ascribe the same importance to certain aspects (such a gender in relationships or even race to some degree) as we still do in this world. So no, there has been no codex claim that bisexuality is the common orientation, because there doesn't need to be. Brother Genitivi didn't need to remark upon it because apparently (blessedly) Thedans don't blink much of an eye at who is sharing a bed, unless there is some juicy gossip and court scandal involved.

[coldwetn0se]

Very nice post @whykikyouwhy
I have actually posted the following thoughts twice before, on two different threads, so please forgive me for being a bit lazy and merely copy/pasting this post.  My views haven't changed, so I felt it is still relevant.
"I know this has been said before (probably many times  ), but  I have never seen the LI's in DA2 as bisexual, but Hawke or PC sexual.  This is a roleplaying game, and as such, I simple use my imagination involving the relationships with both companions (LI or not), and NPC's.  If my female Hawke is straight, gets together with Fenris, then I RP it as Fenris is straight.  If my m!hawke is gay and gets together with Fenris, then for that story, Fenris is gay.  I even have a m!hawke who is most definately bi, who ends up with Isabela; like two peas in a pod, HA!  Point is, by not limiting the LI's based on gender preferences, you open up a lot of RP possibilities while keeping cost in design and story from potentially getting out of hand.  It is like others have said, this is not like the real world.  However, we can use our imaginations to make it fit with how we view this world, and how we bring in our own life experiences from the RL to the characters we create and play as."

Cheers !

[Sylvianus]

Please, use this thread, thank you : http://social.biowar...5/index/8893954

End of line.

[bleetman]

I'm working through a fairly delicious sandwich right now, so I'll just pick out one particular point that caught my attention.

"Some people may argue that this is a fantasy world, and that writers might have imagined a world with different sexual attitudes than the ones we are accustomed to. This is wrong, because nothing in the world of Dragon Age speaks of bisexuality as being the common orientation of anybody, not even the companions. Their bisexuality is superficial, untackled and undiscussed. The sexuality of the townsfolk is mainly heterosexual -I cannot recall any same-sex couples, as a matter of fact, apart from those of the companions (Liara in DA1, Isabella when she suggests to you a threesome in DA1, Zevran in DA1). The all-bisexual array of characters is therefore a construct outside the context established by the narrative: it is an implausibility, and it was at no point suggested to be a matter of fact in the Dragon Age world."

Yes, because nobody ever really talks about their sexuality at all. None of the bisexuals discuss their bisexuality (and I'm slightly confused as to why they're even required to, to be honest. Does it merit a detailed justification from the character in question, or something?), this is true. But again, neither do the heterosexuals/whatever else. Nobody, at any point I can remember, has explained their sexuality or what is or is not a common trend.

It sort of seems you're concluding that heterosexuality is the norm (which it might be), and that everyone encountered in the game should be considered as such until they demonstrate otherwise, then concluding that because hardly anyone does, four bisexuals - if, indeed, they should even be considered as such - in one place is an irregularity. Maybe they are, but it's effectively guesswork.

I'm also having a hard time picturing a scenario in which any of the four reject Hawke's affections based solely on their gender rather than, I don't know, because s/he stands against everything they believe in, but that's a separate issue.

[Ponendus]

BioWare didn't do anything spectacular? I think that's a little harsh. It may not be a perfect system yet but we are talking about a fearless, integrative, admirable and rare move here. I think that's pretty spectacular personally.

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...

Please, use this thread, thank you : http://social.biowar...5/index/8893954

End of line.

Not applicable. That's in a different sub-section solely for people who have the game registered. It's allowed for two threads that deal with the same topic to exist in separate sub-sections.

==============================================================================


Regarding the topic itself, we already know that Isabela is bisexual. This was given to us in DAO. We know that Anders is bisexual given his history. Yes he says he'd like to be with a woman. I take this to mean that he feels a slightly stronger connection to a woman then he does to a man, just like Leliana apparently feels the same way towards a Female Warden.

That doesn't mean he can't love a male Hawke or any other guy. It just means that he feels a slightly stronger connection towards women and thus would like to be with a woman, if he had a say in it. But if a male Hawke comes in to romance Anders, he just falls in love with him.

Merrill is the same way methinks. Slightly stronger connection towards males then to females, if one assumes she and Mahariel were intimate. I do.

But either way, Merrill doesn't tell anyone about her sexuality in DAO, so it was fine to make her bisexual. Given the nature of the clan towards "Make MOAR Elven babies!" and how she didn't have many friends in the clan -- Mahariel being her only one -- I doubt she would've said "Yea I like women too".

Would they have understood? Maybe. I dunno. But that's irrelevant.

And with Fenris, well, one could take his traumatic loss of memory to also mean that he might not know which way he flies, so maybe he's now open. Also, sadly, Danarius used him for..... things.

Now, in regards to bisexuality in the DA games themselves, there's nothing to indicate Bioware will continue on this path -- at least to my knowledge -- so right now it's more that circumstance brought four people that are open with their sexuality together in one place.

Also, I seem to recall the Thedosian population not caring about a person's sexual orientation. For the most part anyway.

And additionally, Sebastian is heterosexual only.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:25 .

[Jademoon121]

The very fact that sexuality and gender isn't an issue for romances in this game -in gameplay or lore- is spectacular. People today are so dead set in one kind of coupling (one man and one woman) that anyone that does otherwise (say homosexuality) are questioned, looked at funny, and considered beyond normal boundaries. It's all about perspective.

Sexuality and gender is complex. You can't organize sexual preferences -just like culinary tastes, not everyone has a sweet tooth- and gender is mostly a social construct. It's all too subjective and varied. It's quite sad that a pseudo-medieval society has a more broader view compared to ours on such an inconsequential aspect of being human (or elf, or dwarf, or qunari).

Modifié par Jademoon121, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:13 .

[AlexXIV]

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move imo. Even though it is probably becoming the norm for Bioware games since it is simply more efficient.

[Plaintiff]

I'm getting really sick of these threads, so I'm copy-pasting what I had to say last time.

Plaintiff wrote...
As a homosexual, I despise and loath media that deals with alternative sexuality 99% of the time, because, inevitably, the entire conflict surrounding that character is their alternative sexuality. Rarely if ever does the character have a personality outside of that. This is not to say that they fill a certain stereotype about homosexuals. They might not, but you'd never ****ing know it because all anybody talks about with them is how incredibly gay they are. It happens everywhere. Books, movies, television.

"I am gay and I get bullied because I'm gay and I like this guy but he's not gay and I am gay. Now I have a boyfriend but I'm confused about how to do the sex because of the gay. Now I'm married to a women, to cover up my gay. Gay gay gay, gay gay gay gay gay, gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay gay gay gay."

I want gay characters who have interests and experience conflicts outside their sexuality. Where are the gay action heroes? Do our limp wrists break when we try to pick up a weapon? Or maybe we can't conceal any in our skin-tight fishnet shirts and assless leather chaps? Or maybe our lisp and effeminate gestures give us away when we're working undercover.

Comic books, surprisingly, seem to be way ahead of the curve on this, but the rest of the world is slow to catch up.

What's my point? Well, what I'm getting to is that DA2 is one of the few, if not the only game to deal with alternative sexuality in the right way. It's available, but not essential to the plot or the characters. The choice of what sexual-related content, and how much of it you experience of it is left entirely up to the player, which isnt possible in non-interactive media. Heck; players don't have to romance anyone at all if they think romances are stupid.

Anders and Isabela may mention a liking for members of their own gender, but it doesn't define them by any means, despite what people say. Their sexuality is but one facet of their personalities, and one that can be ignored with no consequence whatsoever. Their personal plotlines have nothing to do with their sexuality, except Ander's initial companion quest, just barely. The connection is fairly circumstantial.

For a long time I've wondered why other games, movies and books dealing with alternative sexuality focus on it to the exclusion of pretty much anything else. Now, after reading this thread, I understand that any efforts to present audiences with the kind of story I want will be futile, because once you bring up the gay even once, that is all they see. And by God, they will complain about it forever.

This argument about the romance options ruining verisimilitude is pathetic. The romances should be available to everyone. There is no good reason to limit a player's choices in this regard. The romance content is completely optional and has no bearing whatsoever on any other aspect of the plot or the wider world, not even the individual sidequests of the party members. You can completely ignore the romances without penalty, so to say that they affect verisimilitude is pathetic.

Befriending more than the average amount of bisexuals (whatever the "average amount" is) is far more believable than Hawke's tendency to stumble into every major conflict in Kirkwall.

[Asch Lavigne]

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.

I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

[Atakuma]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.

I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

What explanation?

[Plaintiff]

Atakuma wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.

I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

What explanation?

Haven't you heard? Under the new laws, any real or fictional person who claims bisexuality is required to come up with a convincing backstory to justify their attraction for both sexes to complete strangers.

Zevran and Leliana are apparently "allowed" to be bisexual because of their questionable pasts.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:48 .

[GodWood]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.

I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

There doesn't need to be an 'explanation' for their ******/hetero/bisexuality. It's not like people must experience some life changing event to determine their sexuality.

What they need to do is work their sexuality into their character and have it influence their backstory.
e.g) Past relationships, interactions with other people etc.

[whykikyouwhy]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.

I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

Why should the characters explain how they identify themselves unless that specific question comes up in conversation? Is the expectation that any character who may either flirt with the PC, or respond to the PC's flirtations, will need to give a long account of his/her lovers and affairs, proclaim their hetero- or homosexuality? 

Because I can say that such types of declarations do not really occur in real life. So why should they happen in Thedas? 

So too, "everyone" is not bisexual. 

[ydaraishy]

What a lot of people have already said (eg., from why, Plaintiff, etc.), plus:

"I can think of at least two ways of tackling this in a more satisfactory manner: 1) make your work bisexually-friendly (make a world in which bisexuality is common)"

Who says Thedas is a world that is not bisexual-common? Out of all DA games, six out of eight characters that are romanceable have been bisexual. How is this not "bisexually-friendly"? How then, can one say that having bisexual followers/companions is somehow not credible?

Modifié par ydaraishy, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:54 .

[Asch Lavigne]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.


I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

Whyshould the characters explain how they identify themselves unless that specific question comes up in conversation? Is the expectation that any character who may either flirt with the PC, or respond to the PC's flirtations, will need to give a long account of his/her lovers and affairs, proclaim their hetero- or homosexuality? 

Because I can say that such types of declarations do not really occur in real life. So why should they happen in Thedas? 

So too, "everyone" is not bisexual. 

Maybe because they explained it in Origins so I found it as something really left out in DAII. I do not expect, nor need an explanation for everyone's sexual preferences. Sometimes the only explanation is "just because" and that's fine with me.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:55 .

[GodWood]

ydaraishy wrote...
How is this not "bisexually-friendly"? How then, can one say that having bisexual followers/companions is somehow not credible?

I assume, the majority of people assumed Thedas would have the same distributions of sexuality as the real world.

[AlexXIV]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.

I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

Why should the characters explain how they identify themselves unless that specific question comes up in conversation? Is the expectation that any character who may either flirt with the PC, or respond to the PC's flirtations, will need to give a long account of his/her lovers and affairs, proclaim their hetero- or homosexuality? 

Because I can say that such types of declarations do not really occur in real life. So why should they happen in Thedas? 

So too, "everyone" is not bisexual. 

Well I don't think they need to explain but it happens anyway. Because if you are starting an LI they will at some point be the topic. I think it is quite important for the character, it is part of the personality. Mind you like Plaintiff mentioned the characters are not all about their sexual orientation, but it is an important part of their character. So making all the same is sort of exqualizing for sake of fanservice or whatever and not really what I would consider love for detail. Sometimes writers just shouldn't try to please everyone. Not if they have the aspiration of writing the best story driven video games out there. Even if the sexuality is not part of the main storyline it is still a part of the character and as such immersion breaking if done bad and not if done well.

[ydaraishy]

GodWood wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...
How is this not "bisexually-friendly"? How then, can one say that having bisexual followers/companions is somehow not credible?

I assume, the majority of people assumed Thedas would have the same distributions of sexuality as the real world.

I wonder how that is, because Thedas is exactly like the real world, huh?

[whykikyouwhy]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I don't think they need to explain but it happens anyway. Because if you are starting an LI they will at some point be the topic. I think it is quite important for the character, it is part of the personality. Mind you like Plaintiff mentioned the characters are not all about their sexual orientation, but it is an important part of their character. So making all the same is sort of exqualizing for sake of fanservice or whatever and not really what I would consider love for detail. Sometimes writers just shouldn't try to please everyone. Not if they have the aspiration of writing the best story driven video games out there. Even if the sexuality is not part of the main storyline it is still a part of the character and as such immersion breaking if done bad and not if done well.

So, the lack of an explanation, and the characters responding to a Hawke of either gender is fanservice or shoddy writing? <_< Whether or not the story driving the DA-games is great is a matter of opinion (I find the story to be great), but potential bisexual characters is not something, imo, that takes away from that story.

Yes, sexual orientation is an important aspect of a character, but it is not the sole aspect of importance, and in DA2, it wasn't in the spotlight because other important elements were the focus. The mistrust of magic, the mistrust of "love", being ostracized from one's clan, being torn and driven by beliefs and goals...these were the conflicts that were the undercurrent of the romances in DA2, and they made for intriguing plot arcs. 

[GodWood]

ydaraishy wrote...
I wonder how that is, because Thedas is exactly like the real world, huh?

Well if "lolbisexualityissupercommonliekwtfisheterosexualityanyways" is true then it should've been explained in the lore.

[Plaintiff]

AlexXIV wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move.

I agree.

I'd also like to add that especially with no explanation, like Zevran and Leliana had for their bisexuality, it's even more messed up.

Why should the characters explain how they identify themselves unless that specific question comes up in conversation? Is the expectation that any character who may either flirt with the PC, or respond to the PC's flirtations, will need to give a long account of his/her lovers and affairs, proclaim their hetero- or homosexuality? 

Because I can say that such types of declarations do not really occur in real life. So why should they happen in Thedas? 

So too, "everyone" is not bisexual. 

Well I don't think they need to explain but it happens anyway. Because if you are starting an LI they will at some point be the topic. I think it is quite important for the character, it is part of the personality. Mind you like Plaintiff mentioned the characters are not all about their sexual orientation, but it is an important part of their character. So making all the same is sort of exqualizing for sake of fanservice or whatever and not really what I would consider love for detail. Sometimes writers just shouldn't try to please everyone. Not if they have the aspiration of writing the best story driven video games out there. Even if the sexuality is not part of the main storyline it is still a part of the character and as such immersion breaking if done bad and not if done well.

My immersion was completely broken when they failed to bring up Varric's sexuality.

I mean, it's just such an important part of character development. Without it, he might as well be a cardboard cutout.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 janvier 2012 - 02:10 .

[GodWood]

Varric's sexuality was brought up/hinted/suggested.

[Jademoon121]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I don't think they need to explain but it happens anyway. Because if you are starting an LI they will at some point be the topic. I think it is quite important for the character, it is part of the personality. Mind you like Plaintiff mentioned the characters are not all about their sexual orientation, but it is an important part of their character. So making all the same is sort of exqualizing for sake of fanservice or whatever and not really what I would consider love for detail. Sometimes writers just shouldn't try to please everyone. Not if they have the aspiration of writing the best story driven video games out there. Even if the sexuality is not part of the main storyline it is still a part of the character and as such immersion breaking if done bad and not if done well.

Why does there have to be an explaination for something that has little to no bearing on a game's story? Besides, as I've said earlier, sexuality doesn't really count for much. We've seen people in this game commit outright war and genocide over magic, religion, race, and ideology. I've yet to see an Exalted March be declared over who sleeps with whom in bed. Sexuality is just not an issue in Thedas. Plus, there's no logic in trying to justify someone's personal feelings anyway.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 23 janvier 2012 - 02:16 .