438 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

ladyofpayne wrote...

I want evil male BI companion in party.

Yeah, I know what you're thinking. But there was a reason he was never truly happy in that game...

[devSin]

Abispa wrote...

Yeah, I know what you're thinking. But there was a reason he was never truly happy in that game...

BOOZE HAS NO GENDER

[Abispa]

devSin wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Yeah, I know what you're thinking. But there was a reason he was never truly happy in that game...

BOOZE HAS NO GENDER

No! Booze is, by it's very nature, "bi"!

[Chun Hei]

@ Abispa -- I guess Merrill should be happy she is not a D&D or LotR Elf then?

[Galadreal]

Of course, the real reason all of the companions in DAII are bi, is just because, Male of Female, Hawke is just that awesome and sexy, everyone wants him/her.

Ok, probably not, but hey it was worth a shot. Besides Zevron is blatantly bisexual in DA:O but he only really flirts with females. Sure of offers advice on the subject to Alistair, but that is it. Just becuase you don't flirt with someone does not mean you don't find them attractive, and just becuase you do flirt with someone does not mean you are going to jump their bones.

Personally the idea of playing male Hawke and having a relationship with Anders kind of squicks me out...so much stubble!! But generally speaking 2 guys getting it on, not bad, 2 girls getting it on, still not bad, one of each together, also works. Honestly I don't think this is that unrealistic, and I don't see why there is all this controversy over it.

[uzivatel]

I think the main issue with most character being Hawke-sexual is the fact that us players know. If we did not follow the game closely and only played the game once or using one gender, it would be perfectly fine.

If you play male character, you have two female options, an elf and Anders. (link contains DA:O spoilers)
If you play female character, you have two male options, an elf and Isabela.


Its similar to playing ME1 for the first time - you feel like all your choices impact the story in some way. The truth is that many of the choices are not real chocies and in some cases Shepard even says the same line no matter which option you chose, but as long as you dont know any of that...

[philippe willaume]

uzivatel wrote...

I think the main issue with most character being Hawke-sexual is the fact that us players know. If we did not follow the game closely and only played the game once or using one gender, it would be perfectly fine.

If you play male character, you have two female options, an elf and Anders. (link contains DA:O spoilers)
If you play female character, you have two male options, an elf and Isabela.


Its similar to playing ME1 for the first time - you feel like all your choices impact the story in some way. The truth is that many of the choices are not real chocies and in some cases Shepard even says the same line no matter which option you chose, but as long as you dont know any of that...

well said,
Companions are Hawke centric.
Only Zevran and Leiliana were openly BI in DA:0.
In DA:2 as far as I can tell Isabella is the only BI of the group.
all the othere companion, are set in their way for that playthrough (ie either ****** or Hetero according to Hawkes gender).
Now even if they were i am not sure where the problem is, historically some societies were blatantly Bi.
Ie the moral values, and hence the minority and supension of dispbelief inherent to those, are funtion of the society that is producing them.

Phil

[Eternal Phoenix]

There's a girl dancing dirty over there. Do you see what I see?

[slimgrin]

Milady495a wrote...

My point is that Bioware didn't do anything spectacular by making all of the characters bisexual, and that this decision made the story less credible, challenging my suspension of disbelief.

This has long been my argument on the matter, but lately, I've come to the realization that I can't make such a judgment until I actually play the game. Maybe nothing has been compromised at all. I still think it would be great if they made an exclusively gay character for the sake of exploring new ground.

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 janvier 2012 - 06:47 .

[Redcoat]

If I wanted to see a same-sex romance represented in-game, I'd be rather disappointed with how DA2 handles it.

All the same-sex romances are, really, is just a copy-paste of the opposite sex ones, with nary a difference. A character's sexuality ought to be part of their characterisation...not a boolean flag set somewhere in their character file that has them ignore the PC's gender. All that does is create the impression that Hawke is genderless, or his gender and sexuality exhibit quantum behaviour, simultaneously existing in all possible states until it is observed and decoherence occurs.

And it rather defies suspension of disbelief that no one comments on the nature of the same-sex romances. I find it difficult to believe that in Thedas, which is rife with religious and racial intolerance, there is absolutely no homophobia whatsoever. DA2 doesn't confront the issue of same-sex romances, doesn't treat it with any depth whatsoever, and ultimately treats it like nothing more than a bit of fanservice. There's nothing "daring" about it at all...in fact I'd say it's downright cowardly.

[esper]

Redcoat wrote...

If I wanted to see a same-sex romance represented in-game, I'd be rather disappointed with how DA2 handles it.

All the same-sex romances are, really, is just a copy-paste of the opposite sex ones, with nary a difference. A character's sexuality ought to be part of their characterisation...not a boolean flag set somewhere in their character file that has them ignore the PC's gender. All that does is create the impression that Hawke is genderless, or his gender and sexuality exhibit quantum behaviour, simultaneously existing in all possible states until it is observed and decoherence occurs.

And it rather defies suspension of disbelief that no one comments on the nature of the same-sex romances. I find it difficult to believe that in Thedas, which is rife with religious and racial intolerance, there is absolutely no homophobia whatsoever. DA2 doesn't confront the issue of same-sex romances, doesn't treat it with any depth whatsoever, and ultimately treats it like nothing more than a bit of fanservice. There's nothing "daring" about it at all...in fact I'd say it's downright cowardly.

How are sexuality a part of your personality. Are there traits all ******/bi/hetero sexual share? I know this is not perhaps what you wanted to say, but that is the price we will pay for it. And they are not copy paste, there is the subtle lines that show that the Li know wherever they romance a male and a female, such as Anders giving a long explanation to maleHawke. Fenris explain his 'virginity' to female Hawke. Merrill saying female is a goddess and admiring from afar, while she with a male talks about clan disapproval. And Isabella just likes sex which she very clearly states. 

That Thedas doesn't have homphobia is a very fresh breath and actually allow for a more fleshed out showing of sexuality than it would with homophobia, because then the gay/bi character's actually have a personalilty beyond being gay and their world doesn't revolves around it.

[jbblue05]

Sexuality is part of your personality
Your personality is what makes you you.

[bleetman]

Redcoat wrote...

And it rather defies suspension of disbelief that no one comments on the nature of the same-sex romances. I find it difficult to believe that in Thedas, which is rife with religious and racial intolerance, there is absolutely no homophobia whatsoever.

I fail to see what racial intolerance has to do with it. Unless you're just meaning 'there's all these other ways people are prejudiced against each other, why not this as well', that is. If so, I'd suggest they're not particularly comparable. If for nothing else, because there are no elves playing Dragon Age. There are no mages. There are ******/bisexuals playing it, and I can't say I'd be thrilled at encountering frequent ingame prejudice over it. I get enough of that in reality, thanks.

Besides, the dominant religion has nothing - nothing - in its writings about homosexuality. There's no basis for people to accuse it of being immoral or such. Whilst there appears to be a certain degree of expectation that officially observed-by-the-Chantry marriage is heterosexual, that's about as far as it goes. There's certainly no part of the Chant of Light that explains how homosexuality is an abomination, which is more than I can say about, y'know, certain existing religious texts in reality.

Modifié par bleetman, 29 janvier 2012 - 09:52 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

bleetman wrote...

Redcoat wrote...

And it rather defies suspension of disbelief that no one comments on the nature of the same-sex romances. I find it difficult to believe that in Thedas, which is rife with religious and racial intolerance, there is absolutely no homophobia whatsoever.

I fail to see what racial intolerance has to do with it. Unless you're just meaning 'there's all these other ways people are prejudiced against each other, why not this as well', that is.

The dominant religion has nothing - nothing - in its writings about homosexuality. There's no basis for people to accuse it of being immoral or such. Whilst there appears to be a certain degree of expectation that officially observed-by-the-Chantry marriage is heterosexual, that's about as far as it goes. There's certainly no part of the Chant of Light that explains how homosexuality is an abomination, which is more than I can say about, y'know, certain existing religious texts in reality.

I think the more interesting question is why there's basically no exploration of the relationship between gay people and society as a whole in the Dragon Age universe, at all. What is the Chantry dogma re: sexuality? Considering that this is a pseudo-medieval universe with things like hereditary monarchy, how do gay relationships fit into inheritance, etc? I file that under the fact that for whatever reason the DA team seems to be more willing to include sexuality in their game for titillation purposes than they are to take 5 seconds to think about ways that a society without things like reliable contraception might have slightly different concepts re: sexuality than our own.

[LinksOcarina]

jbblue05 wrote...

Sexuality is part of your personality
Your personality is what makes you you.

This.

But add to the fact that it also dictates who you would flirt with in the end, once again I have to point out that 3 out of the 5 possible romances have no sexuality at all unless if you make the first move, then this debate loses a lot of its luster.

Of course that is a problem because this is a character driven game, but the ironic thing is the romances are character specific to Hawke, not to their characters.

[bleetman]

Not everyone of a given sexuality is going to openly flirt with another person of whatever-sex-they're-interested-in at any and all times. That, say, Merrill doesn't hit on Hawke seems entirely in line with her personality and circumstances.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I think the more interesting question is why there's basically no exploration of the relationship between gay people and society as a whole in the Dragon Age universe, at all. What is the Chantry dogma re: sexuality? Considering that this is a pseudo-medieval universe with things like hereditary monarchy, how do gay relationships fit into inheritance, etc?

Given that Chantry influence on Thedas as a whole is supposedly pretty strong (even if not outright hegemonic), I'd assume their stance on s/s relationships would be in line with what the apparent stance of everyone who lives there is: couldn't give a hoot. But sure, it's not really explored. A whole lot of issues aren't explored. I'd certainly enjoy it if they were, but I can't say I expect them to.

Modifié par bleetman, 29 janvier 2012 - 11:49 .

[Fast Jimmy]

bleetman wrote...

Not everyone of a given sexuality is going to openly flirt with another person of whatever-sex-they're-interested-in at any and all times. That, say, Merrill doesn't hit on Hawke seems entirely in line with her personality and circumstances.

Preposterous.

Everyone of compatible sexual orientation is all over one another, like dogs in heat. What world do you live in, man?

[General User]

Heterosexual characters are good. Homosexual characters are fine, so are bisexual characters. "Player"sexual characters are cheap, silly, and unappealing.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

bleetman wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I think the more interesting question is why there's basically no exploration of the relationship between gay people and society as a whole in the Dragon Age universe, at all. What is the Chantry dogma re: sexuality? Considering that this is a pseudo-medieval universe with things like hereditary monarchy, how do gay relationships fit into inheritance, etc?

Given that Chantry influence on Thedas as a whole is supposedly pretty strong (even if not outright hegemonic), I'd assume their stance on s/s relationships would be in line with what the apparent stance of everyone who lives there is: couldn't give a hoot. But sure, it's not really explored. A whole lot of issues aren't explored. I'd certainly enjoy it if they were, but I can't say I expect them to.

On the other hand, I do expect Dragon Age, as a work in the SF genre, to actually think about how stuff in its universe works. Something as central to character motivations as the social/economic/etc. baggage that goes with their relationships is something that needs to be fleshed out, because it's kind of important to how character actions are interpreted. It's what makes the Alistair romance subplot interesting in DA:O if he becomes king, and what elevates the stuff in Witcher (slightly) above pure pandering.

[Masako52]

jbblue05 wrote...

Sexuality is part of your personality
Your personality is what makes you you.

What? How does sexuality possibly affect your personality? (Hint: it doesn't). It affects one area, and one area alone - who you want to boink. The only possible way it further affects you is as a reaction to how society treats you and stereotypes you for your sexuality, but since Thedas doesn't treat gay or straight relationships differently, that's kind of a moot point.

I think the more interesting question is why there's basically no
exploration of the relationship between gay people and society as a
whole in the Dragon Age universe, at all. What is the
Chantry dogma re: sexuality? Considering that this is a pseudo-medieval
universe with things like hereditary monarchy, how do gay relationships
fit into inheritance, etc? I file that under the fact that for whatever
reason the DA team seems to be more willing to include sexuality in
their game for titillation purposes than they are to take 5 seconds to
think about ways that a society without things like reliable
contraception might have slightly different concepts re: sexuality than our own.

If there was homophobia in Thedas, that'd be a fair assessment - characters in gay relationships ought to see some kind of reaction. However, it's canon fact that gay relationships are totally cool in almost any situation. Why does every game have to have homophobia, if it is to include gay romances? I'm all for more clarification on gay issues in Dragon Age - for example, I'd assume, and it's understandable, that when a hereditary heir is required in a noble household, a heterosexual union is needed between two people who can bear children. But to me, legal practicalities in feudal society aren't the same thing as homophobia, which some people seem to feel Dragon Age needs. In fact, frankly I think it's awesome that in Thedas it's not a big deal.

Heterosexual characters are good. Homosexual characters are fine, so
are bisexual characters. "Player"sexual characters are cheap, silly,
and unappealing.

Why? There are real people who really end up with someone outside their identified sexual orientation, because that person is just "the one". Anyway, the LIs are, for all intents and purposes, bisexual (Anders and Isabela express clearly that they have experience with both genders, and Merrill and Fenris don't express themselves having a "straight" preference any more than a "gay" one) - and this gives the player more options. I don't see why you'd want to restrict anyone's options if they want to pursue a romance in a game.

All the same-sex romances are, really, is just a copy-paste of the
opposite sex ones, with nary a difference. A character's sexuality ought
to be part of their characterisation...not a boolean flag set somewhere
in their character file that has them ignore the PC's gender. All that
does is create the impression that Hawke is genderless, or his gender
and sexuality exhibit quantum behaviour, simultaneously existing in all
possible states until it is observed and decoherence occurs.

How would you like to see same-sex romances portrayed, then? I think the point is that, man or woman, Hawke is Hawke. S/he is the same person - we are defined beyond just our gender. Furthermore, I think that's the point - same sex relationships are the same as opposite sex relationships. Sure, maybe you could tweak dialogue a little more or something, it's not like I'm opposed to them being more personalized or anything. But rather than trying to make them vastly different and failing, I'm much more content with them being the same - to me, that speaks more loudly as a positive portrayal of s/s relationships in media.

[General User]

Masako52 wrote...

Heterosexual characters are good. Homosexual characters are fine, so are bisexual characters. "Player"sexual characters are cheap, silly, and unappealing.

Why? There are real people who really end up with someone outside their identified sexual orientation, because that person is just "the one".

Because the experiences and natures of a few cannot be applied to the many without making all involved the lesser for it.

In other words, a person's sexual identity is a wonderful and deeply personal aspect of the human experience (as illuminated through the characters in the stories we tell, video games inculded). It is not something that can be swapped, cut and pasted like a computer file whenever it's convienient.

Anyway, the LIs are, for all intents and purposes, bisexual (Anders and Isabela express clearly that they have experience with both genders, and Merrill and Fenris don't express themselves having a "straight" preference any more than a "gay" one) - and this gives the player more options. I don't see why you'd want to restrict anyone's options if they want to pursue a romance in a game.

To be honest, such things simply are not important to me.  In a story like Dragon Age, where the characters play such a central role, the integrity of those individual characters as wholes must take precedence over whether any of them may or may not be romance options for any particular gender player-character.

Modifié par General User, 30 janvier 2012 - 02:41 .

[whykikyouwhy]

General User wrote...
Because the experiences and natures of a few cannot be applied to the many without making all involved the lesser for it.

In other words, a person's sexual identity is a wonderful and deeply personal aspect of the human experience (as illuminated through the characters in the stories we tell, video games inculded). It is not something that can be swapped, cut and pasted like a computer file whenever it's convienient.

 
Agreed, yet...a person's sexual identity is but one aspect of the mortal experience (since non-humans are included in the DA-verse, let's broaden this a bit). What DA2 does is focus on other aspects - family, culture, belief in self, dreams and ambitions. Sexual identity isn't a focus in the game because it's not something that is focused on in Thedas as it is in our own world. It's not that DA2 glazes over it - rather, DA2 looks at the struggles of character and personality with regard to pride, fear, hope, etc.

  
To be honest, such things simply are not important to me.  In a story like Dragon Age, where the characters play such a central role, the integrity of those individual characters as wholes must take precedence over whether any of them may or may not be romance options for any particular gender player-character.

I don't see where the integrity of individuality was marred or lost with any of the companions in DA2. Sure, you could argue that dialogue options may have been the same with a Hawke of either gender, but they were specific for the characters involved - Isabela's responses were uniquely Isabela, Fenris's were uniquely Fenris, and so forth. Just because sexual identity did not blatantly come into play with the conversations across DA2 does not make those conversations any less indicative of those participating characters. To make a real life parallel, how often does sexual identity blatantly integrate itself in your day to day discussions? At the core, perhaps yes, that aspect of your identity will influence what you say, but is it so obvious and noticeable, or is it just so much a part of you that it's nothing noticed by you or those who you consider friends?

[bleetman]

General User wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
Why? There are real people who really end up with someone outside their identified sexual orientation, because that person is just "the one".

Because the experiences and natures of a few cannot be applied to the many without making all involved the lesser for it.

We're still only talking about two characters, here.

[Xilizhra]

Redcoat wrote...

If I wanted to see a same-sex romance represented in-game, I'd be rather disappointed with how DA2 handles it.

All the same-sex romances are, really, is just a copy-paste of the opposite sex ones, with nary a difference. A character's sexuality ought to be part of their characterisation...not a boolean flag set somewhere in their character file that has them ignore the PC's gender. All that does is create the impression that Hawke is genderless, or his gender and sexuality exhibit quantum behaviour, simultaneously existing in all possible states until it is observed and decoherence occurs.

And it rather defies suspension of disbelief that no one comments on the nature of the same-sex romances. I find it difficult to believe that in Thedas, which is rife with religious and racial intolerance, there is absolutely no homophobia whatsoever. DA2 doesn't confront the issue of same-sex romances, doesn't treat it with any depth whatsoever, and ultimately treats it like nothing more than a bit of fanservice. There's nothing "daring" about it at all...in fact I'd say it's downright cowardly.

It's no more "fanservice" than the straight romances.

[General User]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Agreed, yet...a person's sexual identity is but one aspect of the mortal experience (since non-humans are included in the DA-verse, let's broaden this a bit). What DA2 does is focus on other aspects - family, culture, belief in self, dreams and ambitions. Sexual identity isn't a focus in the game because it's not something that is focused on in Thedas as it is in our own world. It's not that DA2 glazes over it - rather, DA2 looks at the struggles of character and personality with regard to pride, fear, hope, etc.

Sexual identity is not only not a focus of the game, for most of the romance options at least, it simply does not exist.  And I think that's a real shame, a wasted opportunity to not only explore a different facet of characters we all love, but maybe (just maybe) help us get a little insight into our own lives.

The sexual identities of people in general indeed are not much of a concern for much of anyone in Thedas.  But I can all but promise you, when it comes to the particular sexual orientation of the particular person any particular Thedan has his or her heart set on, such things move right to the top of the list.

The thing is, in a weird way (and tell me if you disagree), but it's actually incumbent on fantasy and science fiction to be MORE realistic and believable than more conventional forms of fiction.  What I mean by that is  sci-fi and fantasy are arenas where the imagination is given license to run wild.  Now that license can be used to either go completely off the rails or to answer the high calling and make the truly fantastic believable.  When a truly talented creative mind or minds set themselves to the later, the result is a work of wonder that enlightens both the imagination and the intellect. 

This is where DAII failed.  Dragon Age II made the fantastic tedious, mundane, and trite.  Of a certainty, "hawkesexual" romance options were not the only, or even the main factor in that failure, but they were a part of it.  And one deserving of special care and attention precisely because they strike such a personal chord with so many of us fans.

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I don't see where the integrity of individuality was marred or lost with any of the companions in DA2. Sure, you could argue that dialogue options may have been the same with a Hawke of either gender, but they were specific for the characters involved - Isabela's responses were uniquely Isabela, Fenris's were uniquely Fenris, and so forth. Just because sexual identity did not blatantly come into play with the conversations across DA2 does not make those conversations any less indicative of those participating characters.

Didn't it?  Isabela's sexual orientation (bisexual in her case) came up quite often if I recall.

whykikyouwhy wrote...
To make a real life parallel, how often does sexual identity blatantly integrate itself in your day to day discussions?

Many, many times per day.  Though I might not be the best person to ask...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
At the core, perhaps yes, that aspect of your identity will influence what you say, but is it so obvious and noticeable, or is it just so much a part of you that it's nothing noticed by you or those who you consider friends?

Both.  Again, I might not be the best person to ask.

bleetman wrote...
We're still only talking about two characters, here.

I'm not. 

Modifié par General User, 30 janvier 2012 - 04:21 .