438 réponses à ce sujet

[PHub88]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

PHub88 wrote...

Heres what should be done. I don't care if people are gay and have nothign against it. But it did get annoying being hit on by Anders and Fenris so often just for being nice to them. A few times I was scared I might actually be in a relationship with Anders because how he keeps talking...and the damn dialogue where its likeyou can't escape without saying something you don't want to.

But yeah why not do this if they are really going to go this "sex is so important route". Make a setting before the game...chose Gay, Bi, or straight...yeah im serious. So if you pick straight then the male characters won't hit on you and their sexuality doesn't come into play. This way everyone can have what they want without anyone being bothered...Why the heck not?

I don't recall Fenris making any pass at Hawke. He makes a comment about admiring him/her, but it's an ambiguous statement - nothing need be read into it. Anders only makes one leading statement, after which a player is only going down a romance path if he/she actively chooses the heart icon/flirt options over and over again.

I don't believe that Bioware is vying for a "sex is so important" perspective by offering romance paths in their games. As for a sexual identity toggle, or whatever it is you are proposing (as I'm not entirely certain) - I don't know if that would make for a fluid environment. Take for instance Isabela - if I play a female Hawke and pick the "straight" preset option at the beginning of the game (as you suggest), then wouldn't that mean that Isabela wouldn't flirt with Hawke at the end of her recruitment quest? While I may not be opting to embark on a romance with her, that flirtation is very indicative of who she is as a character - free-spirited, bawdy, ready to say something to make someone blush. Not having those types of elements would, imo, cause the game to lose some of it's flavor and lovely nuances.

You can play the game any way you choose as it is structured now. If you don't want to follow a romance, with anyone, regardless of identity or class, you don't choose the heart icon when conversing with that character. Your Hawke can be straight, bisexual, gay, etc. or you could opt to not even make that sort of declaration for your character. You have some flexibility with the role-playing.

I don't think its hardly that big of a deal. Just so that there could be no confusion or annoyances etc. Your Hawke did thigns others might not have. As well as influence on characters. Why not allow us to alter their sexual preference then too if its becoming such a big deal. Bioware isn't making it a big deal the fans are. Isabella wouldn't be affected because her identity isn't based solely on how much of a hoe she is. I feel like if we where to make everyone BI that would just be stupid...I don't like the idea that its become a big deal. This is just how I would do it rather than making everyone BI. If we are going to satisfy everyone I think the easiest way would just be to make settings. It doesn't change much and sure it would need to be more fine tuned. But it would really just affect your control over things. If you want the characters to be BI...they are.

[PHub88]

Masako52 wrote...

PHub88 wrote...

Heres what should be done. I don't care if people are gay and have nothign against it. But it did get annoying being hit on by Anders and Fenris so often just for being nice to them. A few times I was scared I might actually be in a relationship with Anders because how he keeps talking...and the damn dialogue where its likeyou can't escape without saying something you don't want to.

But yeah why not do this if they are really going to go this "sex is so important route". Make a setting before the game...chose Gay, Bi, or straight...yeah im serious. So if you pick straight then the male characters won't hit on you and their sexuality doesn't come into play. This way everyone can have what they want without anyone being bothered...Why the heck not?

Because... in reality we don't wear signs that proclaim our sexual orientation? And sometimes people we're not interested in hit on us? To be honest, I would be bothered if there was a "gay adjustment" meter. I'd be astronomically more offended if Bioware did that than if they went back to 2 bisexuals 2 straights, which would also bother me. Anders initiates flirting with Hawke one time (whether Hawke is a man or a woman). Fenris NEVER hits on you, so I don't know what Heart dialogue options you've been pressing. <_< Also, how is Dragon Age all "Sex is so important"? I mean, the romances are 100% optional.

(That being said I do think the Anders dialogue problem is legitimate - NOT that he hits on you first, I think that's awesome, but that in some instances it's either pick the romance option or be a little rude. That's just lazy programming. But that's another topic that's been hashed to death already.)

Well IDK how you play but both playthroughs now I just used the "nice" dialogue %90 of the time and Fenris hits on me %200 sure of that.

[Xilizhra]

It's tough to write someone who'd have a problem with the PC being gay without making that character be seen as a collosal jerk. edit: look at how Ashley gets written off as a racist

Uh, they would be a colossal jerk. Why is that a problem?

[Lasien]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's tough to write someone who'd have a problem with the PC being gay without making that character be seen as a collosal jerk. edit: look at how Ashley gets written off as a racist

Uh, they would be a colossal jerk. Why is that a problem?

So you disagreeing to another's choices isn't you being a jerk, but if they dare disagree with you... WELL!

[whykikyouwhy]

PHub88 wrote...

I don't think its hardly that big of a deal. Just so that there could be no confusion or annoyances etc. Your Hawke did thigns others might not have. As well as influence on characters. Why not allow us to alter their sexual preference then too if its becoming such a big deal. Bioware isn't making it a big deal the fans are. Isabella wouldn't be affected because her identity isn't based solely on how much of a hoe she is. I feel like if we where to make everyone BI that would just be stupid...I don't like the idea that its become a big deal. This is just how I would do it rather than making everyone BI. If we are going to satisfy everyone I think the easiest way would just be to make settings. It doesn't change much and sure it would need to be more fine tuned. But it would really just affect your control over things. If you want the characters to be BI...they are.

Regarding the bolded bit - Your toggle suggestion would, in effect, prevent her from flirting with a female character. 

First, at no point in my post did I refer to her as something negative. So it saddens me that such was your take-away. 

Second, flirtation made does not equate any sort of sexual relations. 

What I was trying to say is  - that one specific moment of flirtation from Isabela is very indicative of her character, not as any sort of loose woman, but as someone playful. People can flirt for reaction, for effect - Isabela does a bit of this. So, your toggle would take away that one moment. It might not be a significant moment to some, but I felt it was quite funny and ribald. I enjoyed that exchange and felt it added something to the character.

And, not everyone in the game is bisexual. No one identifies as that. We're applying our standards and norms to characters who haven't sat down and had any sort of chat with Hawke about how they identify themselves (because it's not really necessary to do so). So, again, as it stands now, the game allows you some control with the heart icon. You gear your conversations in the manner that you see fit for your role-playing experience and you can draw whatever conclusions about the characters as you wish.

[philippe willaume]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

If Kirkwall was like a Greek Polis, being openly Bi would be kind of unsurprising if not the norm.
...
If Kirkwall was a Spanish city in the peak of the inquisition, (or an English one during Puritanism) even openly having hetero sex for fun would be frowned upon.
...
My point is that may be Kirkwall society does not stigmatise sexual preference. 

My question is why in the world any of this is left ambiguous. They had the chance to write a fantasy world that treats sexual orientation in an interesting and unconventional way, and instead they opted to write a fantasy world in which you can choose to have sex with the gender of your choice without any understanding of how these characters are approaching the issue of sexuality in the first place.

May be because the game is sold in the 21st century Earth............

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

Uh, they would be a colossal jerk. Why is that a problem?

If a society is not accepting of homosexuality, then even some fairly ordinary decent people will have a problem with it.  Decent people would get over it in time, and wouldn't be trying to be offensive, but most people tend to believe that what their society says is wrong is wrong, until they're forced to examine the issue by circumstance.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the issue is that they would be seen as only a colossal jerk, when in fact their jerkiness only applies to this issue.

You could just limit it to people who are in fact purely collosal jerks.  But then you're not doing what Dave appeared to be advocating and showing how Thedas feels about sexuality - you're just showing that a colossal jerk is a colossal jerk.

edit: It's after midnight here, so if I'm making no sense please ignore me

Modifié par Wulfram, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:07 .

[PHub88]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

PHub88 wrote...

I don't think its hardly that big of a deal. Just so that there could be no confusion or annoyances etc. Your Hawke did thigns others might not have. As well as influence on characters. Why not allow us to alter their sexual preference then too if its becoming such a big deal. Bioware isn't making it a big deal the fans are. Isabella wouldn't be affected because her identity isn't based solely on how much of a hoe she is. I feel like if we where to make everyone BI that would just be stupid...I don't like the idea that its become a big deal. This is just how I would do it rather than making everyone BI. If we are going to satisfy everyone I think the easiest way would just be to make settings. It doesn't change much and sure it would need to be more fine tuned. But it would really just affect your control over things. If you want the characters to be BI...they are.

Regarding the bolded bit - Your toggle suggestion would, in effect, prevent her from flirting with a female character. 

First, at no point in my post did I refer to her as something negative. So it saddens me that such was your take-away. 

Second, flirtation made does not equate any sort of sexual relations. 

What I was trying to say is  - that one specific moment of flirtation from Isabela is very indicative of her character, not as any sort of loose woman, but as someone playful. People can flirt for reaction, for effect - Isabela does a bit of this. So, your toggle would take away that one moment. It might not be a significant moment to some, but I felt it was quite funny and ribald. I enjoyed that exchange and felt it added something to the character.

And, not everyone in the game is bisexual. No one identifies as that. We're applying our standards and norms to characters who haven't sat down and had any sort of chat with Hawke about how they identify themselves (because it's not really necessary to do so). So, again, as it stands now, the game allows you some control with the heart icon. You gear your conversations in the manner that you see fit for your role-playing experience and you can draw whatever conclusions about the characters as you wish.

I didn't say it wouldn't affect her flirting when you first meet her. I said there is more to her character than this whole "sex thing" she has going on. It would be incredibly easy to have her be exactly as she is but as a lesbian, or straight. As for what they identify as, there is multiple bisexual characters they just never flat out tell you but its obvious. I didn't say they are all BI, it was a response to some people actually suggesting we make every single character BI. I merely am offering an alternative to making every single character BI. It's like you want what im saying to be more than it is. I'm not hating on anbody or anything. Negative? Thats like being offended on purpose. 

Flirting doesn't relate to sex? Really? Well if you say so...

Modifié par PHub88, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:18 .

[Xilizhra]

If a society is not accepting of homosexuality, then even some fairly ordinary decent people will have a problem with it. Decent people would get over it in time, and wouldn't be trying to be offensive, but most people tend to believe that what their society says is wrong is wrong, until they're forced to examine the issue by circumstance.

I disagree. If more people have a problem with it, said society simply has fewer decent people.

[Plaintiff]

Lasien wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's tough to write someone who'd have a problem with the PC being gay without making that character be seen as a collosal jerk. edit: look at how Ashley gets written off as a racist

Uh, they would be a colossal jerk. Why is that a problem?

So you disagreeing to another's choices isn't you being a jerk, but if they dare disagree with you... WELL!

What the ****?

Sexuality isn't a choice for starters, nobody makes the concious decision to be gay.

And even if sexuality was a concious decision, it wouldn't matter because there's nothing wrong with it, as long as all parties are consenting.

Finally, your sexuality is your business and not anyone else's.

So yes, a character who had a problem with the PC being gay would be a colossal jerk, just like real life.

[DiebytheSword]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lasien wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's tough to write someone who'd have a problem with the PC being gay without making that character be seen as a collosal jerk. edit: look at how Ashley gets written off as a racist

Uh, they would be a colossal jerk. Why is that a problem?

So you disagreeing to another's choices isn't you being a jerk, but if they dare disagree with you... WELL!

What the ****?

Sexuality isn't a choice for starters, nobody makes the concious decision to be gay.

And even if sexuality was a concious decision, it wouldn't matter because there's nothing wrong with it, as long as all parties are consenting.

Finally, your sexuality is your business and not anyone else's.

So yes, a character who had a problem with the PC being gay would be a colossal jerk, just like real life.

While one does not choose to be bisexual, the bisexual does choose to persue same sex or different sex relationships.  So while that doesn't invalidate what you said for the most part, one should be careful about blanket statements when being indignant about other blanket statements. 

[Xilizhra]

While one does not choose to be bisexual, the bisexual does choose to persue same sex or different sex relationships. So while that doesn't invalidate what you said for the most part, one should be careful about blanket statements when being indignant about other blanket statements.

Elaborate?

[Plaintiff]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lasien wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's tough to write someone who'd have a problem with the PC being gay without making that character be seen as a collosal jerk. edit: look at how Ashley gets written off as a racist

Uh, they would be a colossal jerk. Why is that a problem?

So you disagreeing to another's choices isn't you being a jerk, but if they dare disagree with you... WELL!

What the ****?

Sexuality isn't a choice for starters, nobody makes the concious decision to be gay.

And even if sexuality was a concious decision, it wouldn't matter because there's nothing wrong with it, as long as all parties are consenting.

Finally, your sexuality is your business and not anyone else's.

So yes, a character who had a problem with the PC being gay would be a colossal jerk, just like real life.

While one does not choose to be bisexual, the bisexual does choose to persue same sex or different sex relationships.  So while that doesn't invalidate what you said for the most part, one should be careful about blanket statements when being indignant about other blanket statements. 

Choosing to pursue a particular kind of relationship is a completely different issue. A gay man can choose to marry a woman and even have kids, but that won't make him any less gay.

[GMagnum]

aye dam whoevr read dis entire thred ill giv dem 100 dolalr tbh

[DiebytheSword]

I was being cheeky, but at the core of my comment is this;

Gay and straight arguments tend to ignore bisexuals and asexuals in conversation. I was pointing out that bisexuals choose a straight or a gay relationship, but they are effectively chosing which to be in.

Plaintiff asserts that its different, because a gay man can marry a woman and will still be gay. I assert that a bisexual man or woman can marry either and is still bisexual and chosing whether he or she will be engaged in a ****** or heterosexual relationship without choosing to be bisexual (I agree that you can't decide to be anything other than what you are, even if you change you are still you.).

I thought it was an interesting observation that I don't ever hear covered in these types of conversations.

You don't choose, but you're still choosing. That's why I said to be careful with blanket statements, not everything is a dichotomy.

[Xilizhra]

I also don't know what that really has to do with anything...

[DiebytheSword]

I did say I was being cheeky, and not serious. I should have read the entire thread before throwing out a comment.

[J.C. Blade]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
And, not everyone in the game is bisexual. No one identifies as that. We're applying our standards and norms to characters who haven't sat down and had any sort of chat with Hawke about how they identify themselves (because it's not really necessary to do so). So, again, as it stands now, the game allows you some control with the heart icon. You gear your conversations in the manner that you see fit for your role-playing experience and you can draw whatever conclusions about the characters as you wish.

And again, some players have a problem with exactly that. I personally, do not want to be in-charge of a part of NPC's personality, no matter how small or insignificant to the rest of the gamplay it is unless it has come through influence/stats/perusasion/quests/working for it - not a one, single button to define everything. They can be writtien with any orientation the writers can dream up so long as they stop being flexible to player's whims like paper.

I know the romances were written the way they were to save resources and make them more accessable to everyone, and I know plenty of people see it as a great stride forward in roleplaying, but I have to say that instead of increasing roleplaying options for me it did just the oposite. It shut them off completely. Honestly, I haven't felt this disappointed game-wise since that revelation that Anomen was the only female option in BG2. Except DA2 can't be modded so no improvements can be made on that part.

[Masako52]

J.C. Blade wrote...

And again, some players have a problem with exactly that. I personally, do not want to be in-charge of a part of NPC's personality, no matter how small or insignificant to the rest of the gamplay it is unless it has come through influence/stats/perusasion/quests/working for it - not a one, single button to define everything. They can be writtien with any orientation the writers can dream up so long as they stop being flexible to player's whims like paper.

I know the romances were written the way they were to save resources and make them more accessable to everyone, and I know plenty of people see it as a great stride forward in roleplaying, but I have to say that instead of increasing roleplaying options for me it did just the oposite. It shut them off completely. Honestly, I haven't felt this disappointed game-wise since that revelation that Anomen was the only female option in BG2. Except DA2 can't be modded so no improvements can be made on that part.

You're not in charge of the characters' personalities. Not at all. Nor are you in charge of their sexual orientation (which is not personality). You're simply free to draw your own conclusions because the characters have not been shoved into sexuality identification boxes - however, it is canon that all four LIs are potentially interested in Hawke regardless of gender. This has nothing to do with you as the player. I personally find the depth of the characters impressive in DA2, and the romances are also extremely fleshed out if you choose to pursue them. I remain baffled and will probably never understand why some gamers choose to take offense to the fact that they don't have to plan the romances of whatever storyline they wish by the gender of their character. Or why that ruins them so irreparably that people who want to play same-sex romances can romance the same characters as those who like playing opposite sex-romances.

Also... Bioware wrote them all bi to "save resources"? I'm pretty sure Bioware has publicly said that the LIs have gender-free romance as a way of inclusion and representation/support of gamers who like s/s romance. I seriously doubt it was because they didn't have enough time or money to ... not make half of them straight.

[J.C. Blade]

I said "part of their personality, no matter how small or insignificant to the rest of the gamplay" - as in, small part of the NPC that otherwise you wouldn't encounter anywhere else in the game other than a romance. Call me old fashioned, but that kind of NPC customization would have never happened with a real DM.

For instance, why shouldn't female Hawke not know of Anders' prior relation to Karl? Friend, rival or romance, it would certainly shed some light as to why Anders had suddenly began to hate the Chantery like a rabid dog.

And yes, they did. Part of the reason were the resources. They've said already they would never do a purely gay character so they've opened all of them for everyone. Plenty of people liked this move, some didn't. I didn't, but I'm just one person in a minority. I'm stuck with what is given.

Edit: Also, this is a purely personal opinion, but I didn't find DA2 NPCs to be flashed out at all, romance or not. In fact, I kept wondering throughout the game as to why Hawke even kept associating with these individuals. I don't like how romace mechanic workes in this game but choosing not to romance a single one of them was made easy for me by not liking how any of them were written to begin with.

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 31 janvier 2012 - 09:55 .

[Kidd]

I wonder if those who feel the "all bi" part of the game never had a game master change their plans for the world around them, the plot and/or NPCs to better fit with the plot line the players want to play? To me, that's being a good game master in P&P. If a player wants something, give that thing to them. Perhaps make them work for it a little, but do give them what they want. Of course, if they want to change the entire freaking narrative on a whim, that's unreasonable, but it's a rule of thumb for smaller things.

And the romances in BioWare games are definitely not the entire narrative but very small, reasonable parts of it.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:23 .

[J.C. Blade]

None of mine ever did that, and I've had several. They'd provide dozen ways to solve side quests, more than that to progress the main plot. Sure, there was improvisation, quite a lot at times but at no point did the excuse of "I'm a player and this is a roleplaying game, so I should be able to do this (whatever "this" is)" fly. The story and the accompanying NPCs were a creation of a DM. Player had no say in that beyond exploring and trying to influence that world.

Well, that's my experience at least.

[Demonhoopa]

I've beaten the game around 15 times and no one has EVER hit on my Hawk that he/she didn't get chummy with. It simply has never happened. I'm at a point where I know this game inside and out, I have to believe that except for the rare glitchy exception, these complaints are "user error". Or maybe it isn't but it doesn't matter to me because my personal copy of this game is not doing this. Lets face it, that's the only thing I have to go by that I can really trust/believe.

Modifié par Demonhoopa, 31 janvier 2012 - 04:10 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The point I agree with is that universally making everyone bi really goes beyond suspension of disbelief, because in reality, human sexuality is a complicated machine, and people's sexual orientations are seldom a cut and dry matter. While a game doesn't allow for that sort of detail, there still is room to at least touch on it realistically. Slapping the bi-brush on everyone really isn't eagletarian, it's lazy. And patronizing.

Anders is my first example. That Anders can swing both ways does not bother me in the slightest. It is the fact that if you are playing a female character, Anders is 100% straight, as far as you know. He never once gives even the slightest hint, even in companion convos, that he swings both ways. Yet if you play a male character, suddenly, Anders now likes dudes too. To me, this is sexuality on demand or for convience to cater to whatever the player is, rather than creating a realistic character whose sexuality is consistant and part of who they are.

In origins, you had everyone favorite kinky little pansexual assassin, Zevran. Zevran was bi whether you played male or female, and was consistant. Even when playing a female, Zevran does make comments or flirts to other companions or NPCs, both male and female, and tells you himself that he switch hits, to make sure you don't have a problem with it. And I never did. Zevran going both ways never bothered me at all. if he was fully gay, that would not have bothered me either, I'd simply create a male character to experience this unique, same sex only relationship.

But the straight for one, gay for the other crap does grate on me. If bioware wants to make romanceable characters bisexual, great. But please, make them consistantly bisexual, because thats how believable characters are, like real people. In real life, bisexual people are not polarized, straight/gay on demand. While a bisexual person can be part of a monogamous relationship like any other person, the fact that they will do so with either gender is an important part of their being, something that their friends, family, and signifigant other will be aware of.

To treat sexuality in such a casual manner, I find, is cheap and insulting. I want to fight for the love, but I want that love to be realistically implemented. Keep it real, please.

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding Anders - "(he) is 100% straight, as far as you know..." - It's that last bit that is key. The player is left to draw his/her own conclusions, regardless of the gender Hawke is, actually. Anders tells a male Hawke about Karl, and thus a player might conclude that Anders is gay as opposed to bi.

The lack of revelation of his past (to a female Hawke) does not, imo, cheapen Anders or his sexual identity. It can be summed up as many things - he could simply feel that it's not relevant, he could be trying to forget about that heartbreak and want to devote himself to that pretty girl he cheekily commented on in DA:A, etc. While yes, it would have been nice to have heard more about his past regardless of the relationship, I don't think the lack of dialogue demeans his sexuality in any way. It doesn't make him any less interested in men - it just means he doesn't care to discuss that attraction (heck, perhaps he is wary of how a female Hawke may feel about the matter - Anders always struck me as a little insecure).

Personally, I don't find sexuality/sexual identity in DA2 treated cheaply. For me, cheap would be making someone a caricature or a stereotype, and I saw none of that with the companions. Each had a wonderful story, each had lovely flaws and qualities.