438 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

esper wrote...

While it is a good story it is impossible to incorperate in a game, because the DM isn't there and the campaing is already written out and set in stone. Sure we may have option a,b,c but it is impossible for bioware to predict that someone wanted option ab1. It is simply the limit of a game such as this.

It's not possible to do, no. But that's why it's important we get as many choices as possible in a game. Such as the opened up romance options, right? =) If you don't think your character fits in a romance with Isabela, don't romance her. If you don't think your characters fits with killing that one thug, let them run! ^^

[J.C. Blade]

esper wrote...
People preferences are fine. They are welcome to them, I don't care. But it was enitirely the writer of the original's comment problem if s/he can't romance someone because that person goes both way not the character's.

Saying that's a problem is like saying gay people have a problem. It's neither fair nor true. It's a preference, one a person is born with or a taste acquired through life.

It is entirely her/his problem as it is her/him who chooses to make it a problem, just as it is enitirely my problem that I can't romance Isabella because her personlity rubs me the wrong way. If someone chooses to say, if a person does, x, y and z then I won't like them that way, they have problem if they still wants a romance. 

My apologies. I wasn't sure if she still wanted the romance even when knowing the character is bi and she wanted them to one or the other. So yes, I will agree with you on that maing a problem where there was none.

[ladyofpayne]

I never understand why everyone angry because Anders become BI. It suits him. With MErril it looks strange- she is from dying people and she don't have problem with woman.

[Masako52]

Kulyok wrote...

I'm against this "everyone goes both way" thing. A man who likes to have sex with males and females is 1) a rare specimen, both in real and in fantasy world; 2) is a definite no-no for many women, myself included. Crazy terrorist in a fantasy game? Sure, any time. Got into a guy's pants? Ewww, I don't want to sleep with such a guy. Besides, it means he's got a flawed personality as a romantic partner - he seeks something in men that a women can't satisfy.

Besides, in my games, I got the impression that Anders doesn't like gays at all. In Awakening, he reacts to Oghren's "Big templar man! What are you going to do with that sword?" with "Ewww", and in Dragon Age 2, betrayed in the Fade by Hawke, he angrily tells her - "You should hook up with Merrill instead", meaning that the most hateful and disgusting thing for him would be Hawke with another woman. Oh, yes, and a blood mage, too, but that seemed like an afterthought.

Are you... kidding? You think bi men are rare... and a man being bi would destroy your interest, over that man committing terrorist acts? Well... okay... wow. Well firstly, bi men are much, MUCH more common than you seem to think, and secondly... maybe that's some personal issues you have to work through.

Also, it's incredibly offensive that you think bi men are "flawed" romantic partners because a "woman can't satisfy".... I'll just stick with saying you're incredibly wrong, and again, I hope you're being sarcastic through your whole post.

Also, Oghren made a rape joke about the Templars and the mages. Rape is not gay. Rape is rape. "Doesn't like gays at all"? Nope, wrong.

[esper]

[quote]J.C. Blade wrote...

[quote]esper wrote...
People preferences are fine. They are welcome to them, I don't care. But it was enitirely the writer of the original's comment problem if s/he can't romance someone because that person goes both way not the character's.[/quote]
Saying that's a problem is like saying gay people have a problem. It's neither fair nor true. It's a preference, one a person is born with or a taste acquired through life.
[/quote]
If a homosexual man would like to romance a woman, I would say that the homosexual man does have a problem. But as it happens most people who comes to terms with their sexuality doesn't want to romance somebody they are not attracted to. Those who doesn't suffers from it.
Similary if a woman fells in love with a gay man, it is her problem, similary it is the gay man's problem if he falls in love with a man who is not attracted to them. If a woman falls in love with a man an then realises that the man likes both women and men and then can't sleep with him because she finds it disgusting. It is her problem.  


[/quote]

[esper]

ladyofpayne wrote...

I never understand why everyone angry because Anders become BI. It suits him. With MErril it looks strange- she is from dying people and she don't have problem with woman.

She is with a human. The children would never be elves, also she has already abandonded the clan.

[esper]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

esper wrote...

While it is a good story it is impossible to incorperate in a game, because the DM isn't there and the campaing is already written out and set in stone. Sure we may have option a,b,c but it is impossible for bioware to predict that someone wanted option ab1. It is simply the limit of a game such as this.

It's not possible to do, no. But that's why it's important we get as many choices as possible in a game. Such as the opened up romance options, right? =) If you don't think your character fits in a romance with Isabela, don't romance her. If you don't think your characters fits with killing that one thug, let them run! ^^

It is impossible, because bioware could never predict all options. While a DM master who is there could say... oh... never thought of that, but I could use that (evil laughter).

Of course bioware can come close to simulating the effect to which I think that yes the bi options are important. Before that the person had one option and it was like this person or none at all. It is nice having the option to choose.  

[Kulyok]

esper wrote...
People preferences are fine. They are welcome to them, I don't care. But it was enitirely the writer of the original's comment problem if s/he can't romance someone because that person goes both way not the character's.
S/he can just pick Fenris who can't remember his previous sexual encounters and thus is not sure which way he swings because he has first settles down enough by the time he meets Hawke to even begin to think about it.

No, it's not, and no, we cannot, because the writers of Bioware made it very clear that both male romanceable characters "swing both ways", and thus are unavailable to female gamers/characters who prefer it plain "girl-boy only" for themselves.

Fenris: http://aicosu.tumblr...rs-you-got-from - this link clearly says that the writer(David Gaider) said that Fenris had an intimate relationship with Danarius. And with Anders, there's that Karl story for male Hawkes, though thankfully I've never played it.

Did it make it better for players who like this sort of thing? Sure. Did it also cause angry outbreaks, or posts like "I am uncomfortable romancing these guys, they like men!" Sure, and quite a few of those, as well. I believe it is a problem that should be seriously considered for the next DA games, because in Dragon Age 2, as the original poster pointed out, it was too much, both for my tastes(I want to romance a male character who only likes women), and for suspension of disbelief("four characters all swing both ways? Come on!").

[esper]

Kulyok wrote...

esper wrote...
People preferences are fine. They are welcome to them, I don't care. But it was enitirely the writer of the original's comment problem if s/he can't romance someone because that person goes both way not the character's.
S/he can just pick Fenris who can't remember his previous sexual encounters and thus is not sure which way he swings because he has first settles down enough by the time he meets Hawke to even begin to think about it.

No, it's not, and no, we cannot, because the writers of Bioware made it very clear that both male romanceable characters "swing both ways", and thus are unavailable to female gamers/characters who prefer it plain "girl-boy only" for themselves.

Fenris: http://aicosu.tumblr...rs-you-got-from - this link clearly says that the writer(David Gaider) said that Fenris had an intimate relationship with Danarius. And with Anders, there's that Karl story for male Hawkes, though thankfully I've never played it.

Did it make it better for players who like this sort of thing? Sure. Did it also cause angry outbreaks, or posts like "I am uncomfortable romancing these guys, they like men!" Sure, and quite a few of those, as well. I believe it is a problem that should be seriously considered for the next DA games, because in Dragon Age 2, as the original poster pointed out, it was too much, both for my tastes(I want to romance a male character who only likes women), and for suspension of disbelief("four characters all swing both ways? Come on!").

Too bad it is you that is limiting yourself.  It is you who are uncomfortable, so it is either you who must get over it or simply not doing the romances.  Just like female who wanted and s/s in da:o had to accept the religious nut-job with a dubious past.
Edit: And the males had to accept the assassin. Not much better. 
Oh and gay's who play the game have to accept that they swing both way too. That way at least heterosexual and gays are hit equally.

Modifié par esper, 01 février 2012 - 09:29 .

[Masako52]

Kulyok wrote...

No, it's not, and no, we cannot, because the writers of Bioware made it very clear that both male romanceable characters "swing both ways", and thus are unavailable to female gamers/characters who prefer it plain "girl-boy only" for themselves.

Fenris: http://aicosu.tumblr...rs-you-got-from - this link clearly says that the writer(David Gaider) said that Fenris had an intimate relationship with Danarius. And with Anders, there's that Karl story for male Hawkes, though thankfully I've never played it.

Did it make it better for players who like this sort of thing? Sure. Did it also cause angry outbreaks, or posts like "I am uncomfortable romancing these guys, they like men!" Sure, and quite a few of those, as well. I believe it is a problem that should be seriously considered for the next DA games, because in Dragon Age 2, as the original poster pointed out, it was too much, both for my tastes(I want to romance a male character who only likes women), and for suspension of disbelief("four characters all swing both ways? Come on!").

Oh, gasp. Homophobic people don't enjoy the game's romances. I'm sure Bioware is crying over your loss right now.

Seriously, it's your fault and not Bioware's if you have issues with bisexual men. PS, it's kind of shocking that you use Fenris as an example... Yes, Fenris is bi (David Gaider apparently designed him with a male Hawke in mind) but that Danarius example? Rude. He was raped by his master while he was a slave. Not comparable to Anders having a consensual relationship with Karl.

(And four bi characters? NOT UNBELIEVABLE.)

[J.C. Blade]

Great. So we begin with throwing insults at people. There goes any semblance of civilized discussion.

I mean, is this really the first thing that comes to your mind when some people say they’re into purely straight relationships? “Get over it”? "Homophobia"? Has it become some sort of a gimmick to just dish out a serious word like that for nothing at all? Or has it become some sort of mental condition that needs to be treated when I wasn’t looking?

Also, nowhere in my game was there even a hint that Danarius raped Fenris. Fenris himself said he was just a bodyguard. Whatever the writers’ intention may have been it has come across in the game that he was being degraded and humiliated and tortured, but not raped.

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 01 février 2012 - 11:21 .

[Catriana]

There's a hint, and I mean it is a small hint in game when Fenris finally confronts Danarius in Act III. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but it's a bit like this:

Danarius: Ah yes, the Champion of Kirkwall. Are you his new master then?
Hawke: Fenris doesn't belong to anyone!
Danarius: "Do I detect a note of jealousy? That's understandable. The lad is quite skilled, isn't he?"
Fenris: Shut your mouth, Danarius!

When pressed, Fenris also says he cannot remember if there was anyone before the markings and that he didn't have time or trust anyone while he was free. He never mentions his time as a slave.

And in that interview David Gaider (who wrote Fenris) implied that yes, Fenris's relationship with Danarius had probably been of an intimate nature as well. It is not uncommon for a master to sleep with one of his prized slaves, which Fenris was. Whether or not it was rape is debatable, Fenris was mentioned as being a very obedient and loyal slave, so at the time, he had probably been willing because he hadn't known any better.

If people want to be bothered by the fact that the characters can be romanced by either gender(not that they are bi-sexual, because there is a difference between the two), then that is their loss. It is a game, and your experience is how you wish to enjoy it. To take the game so seriously to the point you cannot even enjoy it because you're allowing meaningless technicalities to interfere with your experience only hurts you, IMO.

Isabela and Anders are outright bisexual. Fenris and Merrill seem to be pansexual, not actively bisexual. There is a difference between bi and pansexuality and if that helps some people who cannot even conceive of being with someone who has been with another of the same gender, then by all means consider them as such. Your headcanon is however you want to roll it.

Modifié par Catriana, 01 février 2012 - 12:59 .

[ReiSilver]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Great. So we begin with throwing insults at people. There goes any semblance of civilized discussion.

I mean, is this really the first thing that comes to your mind when some people say they’re into purely straight relationships? “Get over it”? "Homophobia"? Has it become some sort of a gimmick to just dish out a serious word like that for nothing at all? Or has it become some sort of mental condition that needs to be treated when I wasn’t looking?

Also, nowhere in my game was there even a hint that Danarius raped Fenris. Fenris himself said he was just a bodyguard. Whatever the writers’ intention may have been it has come across in the game that he was being degraded and humiliated and tortured, but not raped.

"purely straight" is a new one for me. Let me get this straight; the idea that someone you are interested in once may have had a relationship with or may have been interested in someone physically different from you somehow taints the current relationship? How exactly?
Will your Lady Hawke get Karl cooties? And how is it less ok then if the guy had previous female partners? Do you need your LIs to be virgins?
When you romance a bioware LI all they care about romantically is the PC, you'll find that the majority of LIs will have had a sexual history. It doesn't mean they 'love' you any less or are attracted to your PC any less so... what's the problem?

If I may dig out my favourite analogy so I ay be able to better illustrate how silly this all sounds to me:
Imagine there is a delicious cake. Everyone only gets one slice of cake and person A is fine with this. So the slices of cake are handed out and person A is happily eating their cake when they see person B eating their slice of cake. Suddenly person A feels slighted and starts complaining that their cake is no longer any good because person B is eating a slice from the same original cake, even though they haven't touched person A's slice and person A can see person C eating the slice and has no problem with that.
No no, person B has eaten from the same cake and now everything is RUINED

Dude you still have your slice of cake just like everyone else, everyone is getting an equal share and you're complaining that other people get to enjoy the cake because you can't enjoy your slice if they do?
No one has touched your slice! Let people enjoy theirs!

[Masako52]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Great. So we begin with throwing insults at people. There goes any semblance of civilized discussion.

I mean, is this really the first thing that comes to your mind when some people say they’re into purely straight relationships? “Get over it”? "Homophobia"? Has it become some sort of a gimmick to just dish out a serious word like that for nothing at all? Or has it become some sort of mental condition that needs to be treated when I wasn’t looking?

Also, nowhere in my game was there even a hint that Danarius raped Fenris. Fenris himself said he was just a bodyguard. Whatever the writers’ intention may have been it has come across in the game that he was being degraded and humiliated and tortured, but not raped.

Insults? Really? What she said was not that she wants to play a straight relationship - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and absolutely nobody has a problem with that. What she said was that she had a problem with the fact that Anders and Fenris are potentially into guys as well as women, and she wanted nothing to do with them because of that. That IS homophobic, or just very ignorant at best. What you're doing now is excusing bad class and trying to turn the victims here into "people who like straight relationships". That's not what this issue is about. And a woman dating a bisexual man is a purely straight relationship, and if the problem is that Anders, or whoever, might have dated a guy? That means the issue is entirely with his sexuality. And that makes this an issue of homophobia.

Bioware apparently confirmed that Danarius used Fenris sexually in an interview. I felt it was implied in the narrative, regardless of that... but that's not really relevant to this discussion. Except that Kulyok has a problem being romantically involved with Fenris because of it.

[J.C. Blade]

To use your own analogy, I would not eat the cake in the first place. I would enjoy the atmosphere, the people, the talk, the overall good mood and maybe some drinks but I wouldn’t eat the cake. Why? Maybe that cake is not to my tastes. So people can have my slice of that cake if they want and have fun with it.

Bottom line, I’m not set out to take it away from them. I am not complaining that they're all bi, I just said I did not like the flip-of-the-coin mechanic in DA2 (I have preferred the one in BG2 and DAO) and is one of the reasons I have chosen not to pursue any of the romances in the game, that’s all.

And I'm not going to comment on the first paragraph because it wades heavily into waters of something called "personal preference".

[J.C. Blade]

Masako52 wrote...
Insults? Really? What she said was not that she wants to play a straight relationship - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and absolutely nobody has a problem with that. What she said was that she had a problem with the fact that Anders and Fenris are potentially into guys as well as women, and she wanted nothing to do with them because of that. That IS homophobic, or just very ignorant at best. What you're doing now is excusing bad class and trying to turn the victims here into "people who like straight relationships". That's not what this issue is about. And a woman dating a bisexual man is a purely straight relationship, and if the problem is that Anders, or whoever, might have dated a guy? That means the issue is entirely with his sexuality. And that makes this an issue of homophobia.

Bioware apparently confirmed that Danarius used Fenris sexually in an interview. I felt it was implied in the narrative, regardless of that... but that's not really relevant to this discussion. Except that Kulyok has a problem being romantically involved with Fenris because of it.

I give up. This is just... I don't know...
I just give up.

Have a pleasant day people.

[Catriana]

I'm confused about this term 'flip of the coin'. What exactly does that mean?

The only characters that confirm themselves to be bisexual are Isabela and Anders. Merrill and Fenris's sexualities are not really mentioned, with the exception of Carver having a crush on Merrill and Fenris and Isabela becoming friends with benefits in Act III if you don't romance either of them.

So if you decide to romance either Fenris or Merrill, their sexuality is whatever gender your Hawke is. As far as I see it, it's just game mechanics. If you want to be emotional about it, they're 'Hawke-sexual'. But I wouldn't label either of them as 'bisexual' because no where in the game are they actively so, unlike Isabela and Anders who make it fairly clear they swing both ways.

[esper]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Great. So we begin with throwing insults at people. There goes any semblance of civilized discussion.

I mean, is this really the first thing that comes to your mind when some people say they’re into purely straight relationships? “Get over it”? "Homophobia"? Has it become some sort of a gimmick to just dish out a serious word like that for nothing at all? Or has it become some sort of mental condition that needs to be treated when I wasn’t looking?

Also, nowhere in my game was there even a hint that Danarius raped Fenris. Fenris himself said he was just a bodyguard. Whatever the writers’ intention may have been it has come across in the game that he was being degraded and humiliated and tortured, but not raped.

Because 'get over it' is the only thing to do if you want a romance. If you won't get over it, it is completely fine since at no point does the game force a romance over you. But for a long, long time s/s interested people had to get over the fact that they had one person to choose from and that person very often had the same background. Too bad if they didn't like him/her. Bioware have finally given someone beyond the heterosexual a choice which they hadn't before. 

This is what I meant. It is fine to have preferences, but if those prefereences limits you in your  interactions with other people, you are the one with the problem. If you Hawke can't touch Anders because you won't touch a man who has slept with another, or can't touch Fenris because he might have been raped. it is really not Anders nor Fenris problem, nor the writer of either characther. It is your Hawke and you who has a problem and there is really nothing to do expect move on. It is perfectly fine to be friends with people you can't sleep with. You know that is a possiblity. 

Not touching someone because they might or might not have slept with a person of their own gender is very much a choice you can make and re-make a thousand time. It is not fixed in your person like being attracted to men and attracted to women might be. I am glad that bioware finally does their best to include minorities in their representation equallt with anyone else. Someone had to, and it is a good and importantant start.

[Xilizhra]

Saying that's a problem is like saying gay people have a problem. It's neither fair nor true. It's a preference, one a person is born with or a taste acquired through life.

Preference is one thing, but saying that someone bisexual can't be fully satisfied with being in a monogamous relationship with a woman is factually wrong.

[Malanu]

bleetman wrote...

Every character in Dragon Age is bisexual? Did I buy the wrong version? I must've bought the wrong version.

I think this is a misrepresentation of what is going on in game. Bella & Lil  are bi, the rest conform to how the player romances them. Cause as far as I have seen in my play throughs the cast is pretty much Asexual. If I don't show interest neither do they. The cast don't chase you, you give the signals that directs the orientation of the NPC. So frankly if you play hetero then the party is hetero and vice versa.

Modifié par Malanu, 01 février 2012 - 03:35 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Malanu - I believe that bleetman was being sarcastic.

[Cartims]

Drag is when a man wears everything a lesbian won't.

Just saying...lol

[hoorayforicecream]

J.C. Blade wrote...

To use your own analogy, I would not eat the cake in the first place. I would enjoy the atmosphere, the people, the talk, the overall good mood and maybe some drinks but I wouldn’t eat the cake. Why? Maybe that cake is not to my tastes. So people can have my slice of that cake if they want and have fun with it.

Bottom line, I’m not set out to take it away from them. I am not complaining that they're all bi, I just said I did not like the flip-of-the-coin mechanic in DA2 (I have preferred the one in BG2 and DAO) and is one of the reasons I have chosen not to pursue any of the romances in the game, that’s all.

And I'm not going to comment on the first paragraph because it wades heavily into waters of something called "personal preference".

Isn't this entire post just saying that, rather than the "really bad writing" like you claimed it to be on page 13, just personal preference to you?

In my personal experience with people who may or may not be straight, I've found that sexual identity isn't always something that comes up. I've been friends with a group that I've played DnD with for over 5 years... almost as long as Hawke and Anders knew each other. Yet, over the course of those five years, despite the many times we gathered together, eaten together, hung out, went to the movies, played games, crashed at each others' places, helped each other find jobs, helped each other move, given each other life advice, etc. the question of sexual orientation or our exes never, ever came up. 

You might complain that this is bad writing, I just see it as someone with an egocentric viewpoint that is unable to share equally legitimate views held by others.

[bleetman]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Malanu - I believe that bleetman was being sarcastic.

Listen to this woman. She is a font of wisdom.

[Frybread76]

Malanu wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Every character in Dragon Age is bisexual? Did I buy the wrong version? I must've bought the wrong version.

I think this is a misrepresentation of what is going on in game. Bella & Lil  are bi, the rest conform to how the player romances them. Cause as far as I have seen in my play throughs the cast is pretty much Asexual. If I don't show interest neither do they. The cast don't chase you, you give the signals that directs the orientation of the NPC. So frankly if you play hetero then the party is hetero and vice versa.

Exactly.  The only main characters who are bisexual (or who at least mention or hint at having relationships or sexual relations with members of the same sex) are Isabella and Leiliana.  I would also say Anders is bisexual since he comes on to a male Hawke no matter what you do.

The other characters are what people here call Hawkesexual.