438 réponses à ce sujet

[bleetman]

This is what happens when I reply to other posts without quoting them. People start thinking I'm being remotely serious.

[Malanu]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Malanu - I believe that bleetman was being sarcastic.

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I've been out of the loop to long! Sorry Bleetman, please continue!

[Black_water]

Ponendus wrote...

BioWare didn't do anything spectacular? I think that's a little harsh. It may not be a perfect system yet but we are talking about a fearless, integrative, admirable and rare move here. I think that's pretty spectacular personally.

"
fearless, integrative, admirable and rare move here"

Oh god I swear if people start comparing Bioware to Lenny Bruce or Titian, I'm going to throw my computer out the window.

Was it REALLY a fearless move? Having a gay guy flirt with your character, coupled with a sex scene that consists of the screen fading to black? Was it REALLY that progressive?

Epicurus, Aristotles, Francois Clouet, NAH F*** THOSE GUYS, MAN! Bioware are true progressives!

[bleetman]

As far as computer game characters are concerned, homosexual romances are pretty gosh darn rare, actually. Less so are ones that don't make a big song and dance out of the fact their characters aren't heterosexual.

[Plaintiff]

Black_water wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

BioWare didn't do anything spectacular? I think that's a little harsh. It may not be a perfect system yet but we are talking about a fearless, integrative, admirable and rare move here. I think that's pretty spectacular personally.

"
fearless, integrative, admirable and rare move here"

Oh god I swear if people start comparing Bioware to Lenny Bruce or Titian, I'm going to throw my computer out the window.

Was it REALLY a fearless move? Having a gay guy flirt with your character, coupled with a sex scene that consists of the screen fading to black? Was it REALLY that progressive?

Epicurus, Aristotles, Francois Clouet, NAH F*** THOSE GUYS, MAN! Bioware are true progressives!

Calling Bioware progessive does not, in any way diminish the acheivements of other individuals or groups. Especially when those individuals have nothing whatsoever to do with sexuality or videogames. What point are you trying to make by listing a bunch of irrelevent names? Whatever progress they made in their repsective fields has ****-all to do with the topic at hand.

There's enough room for everybody to be considered progressive, if they deserve it, and Bioware is progressive in its attitude, by doing its best to make sure there's something for everyone in Dragon Age 2. The gaming industry, like most forms of media, largely ignores audiences that fall outside of the heterosexual demographic, so Bioware definitely deserves to be recognized for being an exception to that rule. How is that not progress?

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Plaintiff wrote...

There's enough room for everybody to be considered progressive, if they deserve it, and Bioware is progressive in its attitude, by doing its best to make sure there's something for everyone in Dragon Age 2. The gaming industry, like most forms of media, largely ignores audiences that fall outside of the heterosexual demographic, so Bioware definitely deserves to be recognized for being an exception to that rule. How is that not progress?

Well, they are certainly including bisexual characters in their games. No exclusively gay ones, though, so not that inclusive. They seem to be much happier just to palette-swap a romance than they are to worldbuild as if there were gay people in their world. So maybe a little bit progressive, but not more than Fable or Skyrim.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 02 février 2012 - 12:23 .

[Masako52]

DA2 is extremely progressive, and I feel what they did was very ballsy in the industry. Video games have far from established themselves as a media of equal representation... hell, the media in general consistently fails at portraying LGBT people, and portraying them fairly at that. Additionally, in a fantasy, action/adventure drama, I can personally, as a gay person, maintain that we very rarely see gay issues addressed in the slightest.

To be honest, I've never heard a single non-straight person say that Dragon Age 2 isn't progressive (sans one utter BS article about how Anders is "stereotypically gay"... don't think that person ever played the game, actually). Fable or Skyrim? Cute, you get some gay romances and that's great, but considering DA2 has developed characters, main companions for that matter as possible relationships, it's a much bigger deal than a "relationship" with a side character (I say this, of course, not without appreciating Fable and Skyrim's own advances toward equality, but bear in mind those ALSO are still not the norm).

And the "well, they're bisexual, not actually gay" - that doesn't bother me in the slightest. As far as I see it, it illustrates that gay relationships and straight relationships are completely equal for one thing, considering they're mostly identical between a female Hawke and a male Hawke. Also, I think the biggest point here is that all romance options are now available for people who like same sex romances, and to me that's more progressive than smacking a gay-only label on one single companion.

Calling DA2 not progressive seems like a way to diminish or water down the very real risk they took - and if you've spent any time on these forums, you know how many angry, oh-so-offended fanboys there were - but Bioware chose to stick up for the minority.

[Black_water]

Masako52 wrote...

DA2 is extremely progressive, and I feel what they did was very ballsy in the industry. Video games have far from established themselves as a media of equal representation... hell, the media in general consistently fails at portraying LGBT people, and portraying them fairly at that. Additionally, in a fantasy, action/adventure drama, I can personally, as a gay person, maintain that we very rarely see gay issues addressed in the slightest.

To be honest, I've never heard a single non-straight person say that Dragon Age 2 isn't progressive (sans one utter BS article about how Anders is "stereotypically gay"... don't think that person ever played the game, actually). Fable or Skyrim? Cute, you get some gay romances and that's great, but considering DA2 has developed characters, main companions for that matter as possible relationships, it's a much bigger deal than a "relationship" with a side character (I say this, of course, not without appreciating Fable and Skyrim's own advances toward equality, but bear in mind those ALSO are still not the norm).

And the "well, they're bisexual, not actually gay" - that doesn't bother me in the slightest. As far as I see it, it illustrates that gay relationships and straight relationships are completely equal for one thing, considering they're mostly identical between a female Hawke and a male Hawke. Also, I think the biggest point here is that all romance options are now available for people who like same sex romances, and to me that's more progressive than smacking a gay-only label on one single companion.

Calling DA2 not progressive seems like a way to diminish or water down the very real risk they took - and if you've spent any time on these forums, you know how many angry, oh-so-offended fanboys there were - but Bioware chose to stick up for the minority.

How is making every character bi sexual a ballsy move? That sound like they're playing it safe to me.

The gay romances in this game are TERRIBLY played out. Remember when you were talking to anders as a male character and he starts flirting with you, and you couldn't so "no thanks" without losing influence?

That's a TERRIBLE game design.

The gay characters in this game don't drop subtle hints of being gay, they basically throw their hands in the air and yell "HEY I'M GAY, DID YOU NOTICE HOW GAY I AM?!?! AM I DROPPING ENOUGH DOUBLE ENTENDRES FOR YOU? IN CASE YOU HAVENT FIGURED OUT THAT IM GAY YET, HERE'S 20 FLIRTING DIALOG OPTIONS"

[Plaintiff]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's enough room for everybody to be considered progressive, if they deserve it, and Bioware is progressive in its attitude, by doing its best to make sure there's something for everyone in Dragon Age 2. The gaming industry, like most forms of media, largely ignores audiences that fall outside of the heterosexual demographic, so Bioware definitely deserves to be recognized for being an exception to that rule. How is that not progress?

Well, they are certainly including bisexual characters in their games. No exclusively gay ones, though, so not that inclusive. They seem to be much happier just to palette-swap a romance than they are to worldbuild as if there were gay people in their world. So maybe a little bit progressive, but not more than Fable or Skyrim.

They don't need to include exclusively gay characters to be inclusive to a gay audience. The fact that Anders is bisexual does not make a relationship with a male Hawke "less gay". How the LIs choose to define their own sexuality is irrelevent, as long as they're available to everyone. It doesn't matter if the romance is just a pronoun swap because, (and I know this is hard for some people to wrap their heads around), gay and straight relationships are fundamentally identical. The respective genders of the participants do not significantly alter the way relationships work. Any difference that might be perceived is an illusion, the result of nothing more substantial than societal expectations with no grounding in any sort of logic or rational thought.

Comparatively, Fable and Skyrim are complete crap. It doesn't matter if they allow gay relationships in-game because as it is, their romance functions are pathetic. They might as well not exist at all, because they add nothing of value whatsoever, while Bioware's character romances allow players to experience a signifcant amount of content that would not be available otherwise, and adds nuance to the characters and the story.

[Malanu]

Yes because the player gave the dialogue cues to bring about that Arm waving you mentioned. The characters will mold themselves to whatever sexuality you present in game. It is so we players can get as much bang for our buck as we want... Pun intended! Is there something wrong with that? In my first play through the romantic level was 0%. The second time through Romancing Bella was easy and the threesome with Zev was a hilarious idea. SO far the party has not liked either of my romantic choices (Isabella and Merrill). Then again the most normal (least emotional baggage) member of the party is the darn dog... and he won't have you! LOL

[Plaintiff]

Black_water wrote...
The gay romances in this game are TERRIBLY played out. Remember when you were talking to anders as a male character and he starts flirting with you, and you couldn't so "no thanks" without losing influence?

That's a TERRIBLE game design.

Why shouldn't he disapprove? Last I checked, being shot down, even politely, is just a tad depressing and embarassing for anyone. The amount of rivalry incurred by turning Anders down is negligible and easily made up through later interactions.

The party members will always generate rivalry points when you use a broken heart icon or respond negatively to something they want, even if you do so diplomatically. As a mage, it is impossible to avoid at least five points of rivalry in your initial meeting with Fenris. Is that not equally poor design? Why not? Why can't I make Fenris like me if I want to? Why is it okay for every other party member to potentially disapprove of everything I do, but not for Anders to be slightly miffed at being rejected?

The gay characters in this game don't drop subtle hints of being gay, they basically throw their hands in the air and yell "HEY I'M GAY, DID YOU NOTICE HOW GAY I AM?!?! AM I DROPPING ENOUGH DOUBLE ENTENDRES FOR YOU? IN CASE YOU HAVENT FIGURED OUT THAT IM GAY YET, HERE'S 20 FLIRTING DIALOG OPTIONS"

What characters are gay? Is there a part of the game I missed?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 février 2012 - 03:30 .

[bleetman]

Strange, because I seem to remember my Hawke flirting with her particular romance interest around, oooh, four times? The entire game? With flirts that were equally available for a male Hawke? Inbetween which, nobody but Isabela ever brings up their sexuality in any respect, ever.

I guess their being in a relationship and/or an option for a relationship is the same as 'throwing their hands in the air and yelling HEY I'M GAY'. Those despicable DA2 LIs, being open to romance. How dare they.

Plaintiff wrote...

Why is it okay for every other party member to potentially disapprove of everything I do, but not for Anders to be slightly miffed at being rejected?

Only straight people are allowed emotions, I suppose.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 février 2012 - 04:08 .

[Wulfram]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why shouldn't he disapprove? Last I checked, being shot down, even politely, is just a tad depressing and embarassing for anyone. The amount of rivalry incurred by turning Anders down is negligible and easily made up through later interactions.

He shouldn't get rivalry because Rivalry isn't supposed to be disapproval.  There's no reason turning him down should make him more convinced by your arguments about the dangers of magic

And the amount of rivalry gained isn't all that negligable.  If you want to be pro-mage but critical of the whole possession thing then you can end up fairly stuck in the middle, particularly if he's not a fixture in your group.

[bleetman]

If roleplaying as such has that big an effect on his overall friend/rival status - and I don't doubt that it does - fifteen (it's fifteen, yes?) points extra one way out of a total of a hundred aren't going to sway things. You'll just be marginally more towards the rivalry side than you would be otherwise.

That said, what does friendship/rivalry even do for a non-romanced Anders? His endgame survival isn't tied into it, as it is for your other companions. He doesn't leave the game at a certain point if his friend/rival bar isn't high enough. I assume his 'thanks for being such a good chum/y u no support mages?' conversations are tied into it, but I wouldn't expect either of them to trigger for someone roleplaying as such. I might be inclined to criticize the game for lacking a midgame character conversation for neutral Hawkes, but that's somewhat unrelated.

(Not to mention that whilst I actually wouldn't much care if rejecting him didn't net a slight rivalry increase, I don't understand why this is even being brought up here. It happens to Hawke regardless of their gender.)

Modifié par bleetman, 02 février 2012 - 05:46 .

[Wulfram]

Well, it's true that if you're on the friendship path it turns out that it doesn't matter all that much - though rivalry can. Though it'll delay the time until you he gets his friendship boost. But you don't necessarily know that at the time.

10-15 points out of 100 certainly can sway things. The amount of stress I've had to go through to manage not to kill Rival Fenris testifies to that.

edit: it's true this isn't all that relevant to the topic of this thread

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 février 2012 - 06:00 .

[bleetman]

Ah, right. The passive bonuses from being a friend/rival. I'd forgotten about those ¬_¬

Fair enough then.

[BubbleDncr]

I started to write a big long post on my thoughts on all characters being bisexual, but decided no one would read it.

To sum up: It would be best if there were 2 straight romances (male and female), 2 gay romances (male and female) and one bisexual romance. Thus, straight and gay players all have an equal number of options.

If DA2 can have 5 romance options (Isabella, Merril, Anders, Fenris,and Sebastian), than DA3 can, too.

[Wulfram]

BubbleDncr wrote...

I started to write a big long post on my thoughts on all characters being bisexual, but decided no one would read it.

To sum up: It would be best if there were 2 straight romances (male and female), 2 gay romances (male and female) and one bisexual romance. Thus, straight and gay players all have an equal number of options.

If DA2 can have 5 romance options (Isabella, Merril, Anders, Fenris,and Sebastian), than DA3 can, too.

Um, wouldn't that mean that for one gender, there'd only be one gay option, and for the other there'd be only one straight option?  Not a good outcome IMO

[BubbleDncr]

Wulfram wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

I started to write a big long post on my thoughts on all characters being bisexual, but decided no one would read it.

To sum up: It would be best if there were 2 straight romances (male and female), 2 gay romances (male and female) and one bisexual romance. Thus, straight and gay players all have an equal number of options.

If DA2 can have 5 romance options (Isabella, Merril, Anders, Fenris,and Sebastian), than DA3 can, too.

Um, wouldn't that mean that for one gender, there'd only be one gay option, and for the other there'd be only one straight option?  Not a good outcome IMO

So if the bisexual character is female, then...

As a female character, I could romance the straight male, the gay female, or the bisexual female.
As a male character, I could romance the straight female, the gay male, or the bisexual female.

I suppose you're right, but I guess I'm used to playing SWTOR now, where I only have one romance option, period.  So this doesn't bother me. But I can see how it would bother other people.

I just think if we want to have some heterosexual only romances, its only fair that there are an equal amount of homosexual only romances. Which is more realistic than everyone being bi.

I'm fine with everyone being bi - just have them be bi no matter what gender the player character is - not straight if you play as a female and gay if you play as a male *cough*Anders*cough.* That is the only instance bisexuality in the game has bothered me.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 02 février 2012 - 08:17 .

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why shouldn't he disapprove? Last I checked, being shot down, even politely, is just a tad depressing and embarassing for anyone. The amount of rivalry incurred by turning Anders down is negligible and easily made up through later interactions.

He shouldn't get rivalry because Rivalry isn't supposed to be disapproval.  There's no reason turning him down should make him more convinced by your arguments about the dangers of magic

And the amount of rivalry gained isn't all that negligable.  If you want to be pro-mage but critical of the whole possession thing then you can end up fairly stuck in the middle, particularly if he's not a fixture in your group.

That doesn't make any ****ing sense at all.

Rivalry is obviously analogous to disapproval. That your companions will eventually be worn down and come around to your way of thinking doesn't change that. It comes through quite clearly in the way the characters react to you. They become abrasive and confrontational because they disapprove.

You get Rivalry and/or Friendship points from companions for all sorts of things that are totally irrelevent to their personal plotline and main point of contention. Killing Kelder or letting him survive will generate friendship or rivalry respectively for most party members, even though it has nothing to do with anything that happens later on. Aveline will generate rivalry if you kill Wesley yourself, even though it's a merciful death and has nothing to do with her future interactions, which mostly involve badgering you to be more responsible.

Anders is allowed to be upset that you shut him down. He is allowed to feel however the **** he wants about any number of issues. Why shouldn't he?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 février 2012 - 02:06 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't matter if the romance is just a pronoun swap because, (and I know this is hard for some people to wrap their heads around), gay and straight relationships are fundamentally identical. The respective genders of the participants do not significantly alter the way relationships work. Any difference that might be perceived is an illusion, the result of nothing more substantial than societal expectations with no grounding in any sort of logic or rational thought.

You're missing the point. The issue is not that the romances are basically palette-swaps, the issue is that a game that doesn't include gay people in its worldbuilding to any meaningful degree isn't actually all that inclusive. Sure, it's as inclusive as Skyrim, but that's not saying much.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 03 février 2012 - 02:24 .

[Masako52]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't matter if the romance is just a pronoun swap because, (and I know this is hard for some people to wrap their heads around), gay and straight relationships are fundamentally identical. The respective genders of the participants do not significantly alter the way relationships work. Any difference that might be perceived is an illusion, the result of nothing more substantial than societal expectations with no grounding in any sort of logic or rational thought.

You're missing the point. The issue is not that the romances are basically palette-swaps, the issue is that a game that doesn't include gay people in its worldbuilding to any meaningful degree isn't actually all that inclusive. Sure, it's as inclusive as Skyrim, but that's not saying much.

To be honest, I think you're missing the point. Dragon Age could include exclusively gay characters, and that'd be fine... however, the whole point is that ALL the romances are available for people who want to play same-sex romances. This is practically the definition of inclusive - everyone is allowed to romance who they want to romance, there is no unnecessary gender barrier.

To claim that it's not meaningful... I have to say, your sexual orientation isn't my business, whatever it is, and not to make any accusations, but how can a straight person judge what's meaningful to gay people or not? (I'm assuming most of the posters on this board are straight) At first, the arguments on this forum were all "omg, it's sooo unrealistic" and now they're "well, the characters aren't really gay, so it's nothing to brag about for the gay community!" And I'm wondering who on this board it's actually affecting - people who either actually do identify as gay/bi and therefore are happy for the representation (as far as I know, that's 99.999% of gay gamers) and those people who simply prefer playing same-sex romances (be it a straight guy who likes lesbians, or a straight girl who likes yaoi, or the people that play romances because they like the dynamics between the characters a certain way). I'm gay, so yeah, it's kind of weird seeing so many (presumably straight, but forgive me if I'm wrong) people saying what is and isn't a strong, progressive portrayal considering the state of our current media.

I say the gay romances are extremely meaningful and progressive in DA2. The fact that they're portrayed equally is the most important thing. It's not about identifying as gay - sexual orientation is only a an offset of the real issue here - and that's same sex love. Same sex love portrayal is the point. That's what we're striving for acceptance and equality for. It's not about your number on the Kinsey scale. If we can stop the taboo against same sex romance, sexual orientation wouldn't even be a problem.

[Masako52]

double post, sorry

Modifié par Masako52, 03 février 2012 - 06:02 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Masako52 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't matter if the romance is just a pronoun swap because, (and I know this is hard for some people to wrap their heads around), gay and straight relationships are fundamentally identical. The respective genders of the participants do not significantly alter the way relationships work. Any difference that might be perceived is an illusion, the result of nothing more substantial than societal expectations with no grounding in any sort of logic or rational thought.

You're missing the point. The issue is not that the romances are basically palette-swaps, the issue is that a game that doesn't include gay people in its worldbuilding to any meaningful degree isn't actually all that inclusive. Sure, it's as inclusive as Skyrim, but that's not saying much.

To be honest, I think you're missing the point. Dragon Age could include exclusively gay characters, and that'd be fine... however, the whole point is that ALL the romances are available for people who want to play same-sex romances. This is practically the definition of inclusive - everyone is allowed to romance who they want to romance, there is no unnecessary gender barrier.

Skyrim does that too. Fable did that half a decade ago.

To claim that it's not meaningful... I have to say, your sexual orientation isn't my business, whatever it is, and not to make any accusations, but how can a straight person judge what's meaningful to gay people or not? (I'm assuming most of the posters on this board are straight) At first, the arguments on this forum were all "omg, it's sooo unrealistic" and now they're "well, the characters aren't really gay, so it's nothing to brag about for the gay community!" And I'm wondering who on this board it's actually affecting - people who either actually do identify as gay/bi and therefore are happy for the representation (as far as I know, that's 99.999% of gay gamers) and those people who simply prefer playing same-sex romances (be it a straight guy who likes lesbians, or a straight girl who likes yaoi, or the people that play romances because they like the dynamics between the characters a certain way). I'm gay, so yeah, it's kind of weird seeing so many (presumably straight, but forgive me if I'm wrong) people saying what is and isn't a strong, progressive portrayal considering the state of our current media.

I say the gay romances are extremely meaningful and progressive in DA2. The fact that they're portrayed equally is the most important thing. It's not about identifying as gay - sexual orientation is only a an offset of the real issue here - and that's same sex love. Same sex love portrayal is the point. That's what we're striving for acceptance and equality for. It's not about your number on the Kinsey scale. If we can stop the taboo against same sex romance, sexual orientation wouldn't even be a problem.

That's not really the main issue either. It is an issue, but IMHO the biggest problem is that although the devs of DA2 made a commendable decision to include non-straight characters, they didn't take the time to decide how Thedas views sexuality. This weakens the storytelling - we don't know how characters are responding to a particular scene, and it's not clear the writers do, either.

[TEWR]

I'm fine with everyone being bi - just have them be bi no matter what gender the player character is - not straight if you play as a female and gay if you play as a male *cough*Anders*cough.*

He's always bi, as banter with Isabela shows that they had sex in the past. For some reason though, he just talks about his relationship with Karl with a male Hawke then with a female Hawke.

Which I find to be a bit bothersome that he only does it with one gender, after he just met them. Female Hawkes should hear about that as well if he's going to be so open.