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[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, how do you show the fact that something by and large it isn't an issue other than by not having it be an issue?

Yeah, it would have been nice if they did. But once again, no real portrayal of non-straight characters in society at large.

Wade and Herren are a couple, and they aren't ostracized or treated any differently.

So what, 2 NPCs out of a cast of hundreds? According to a post on BSN? Yeah, real meticulous worldbuilding there.

First, Wade and Herren being a couple is as canon as Dumbledore being gay, unless you somehow wish to disbelieve their respective writers. The point is that there is no big deal made about it, which is exactly the point - they aren't out of place, they don't need special treatment, because it really isn't that big a deal. You know, show that it isn't an issue by not having it be an issue.

"Canon" is something that really only matters to fans. There's nothing that is actually in the game itself as written/acted that tells us that Wade and Herren are a gay couple (or, for that matter, that Dumbledore is gay), and considering that I'm evaluating the games on their merits, not their merits and whatever their authors post on BSN, no, I don't think that revealing on the internets that two characters are liek totally a gay couple guise is an acceptable substitute for designing your fictional society as if gay people existed in it.

(Also, don't Skyrim and Fable also do this? But, wait, I thought Dragon Age 2 was supposed to be groundbreaking?)

Second, could you stop moving the goalposts? They were fine where they were when I quoted you, thanks.

Hmm... so let's look aaallll the way back to my first post.

They had the chance to write a fantasy world that treats sexual orientation in an interesting and unconventional way, and instead they opted to write a fantasy world in which you can choose to have sex with the gender of your choice without any understanding of how these characters are approaching the issue of sexuality in the first place.

Nope, looks like the goalposts are staying pretty much were they were. Thanks for the input, though!

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 04 février 2012 - 11:44 .

[Nejeli]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So... it's excusable because it's a video game? That's a ****ty argument and you know it. Bioware could have easily made Anders show disappointment when you turn him down. In a cutscene and maybe some dialogue afterwards. Rivalry points need not be gained/earned/whatever.

I don't know. Anders doesn't take well to people not liking him. He also tends to react super-defensively.  I've never choosen that particular option (if I don't plan to romance Anders, I just pick the 'No, it's not a problem' option and then don't pick anymore romance options) so I'm not sure what's said or how disdainful or mean Hawke might have been, but I can easily see this exchange leaving Anders thinking 'Great, yet another person I have to work with that doesn't like me/doesn't see things my way' in which case him gaining rivalry make sense.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

"Canon" is
something that really only matters to fans. There's nothing that is
actually in the game itself as written/acted that tells us that Wade and
Herren are a gay couple (or, for that matter, that Dumbledore is gay),
and considering that I'm evaluating the games on their merits, not their
merits and whatever their authors post on BSN, no, I don't think that
revealing on the internets that two characters are liek totally a gay
couple guise is an acceptable substitute for designing your fictional
society as if gay people existed in it.

How would it have come out in the game? We only interact with Wade and Herren when they're working. They're both busy with their various jobs. Since neither of them small talk about anything else, it would have been totally jarring to have either of them infodump about being a couple. I thought there were enough subtle hints that you could safely assume they were one, and I much prefer that over a heavy-handed, awkward, and unnecessary 'WE'RE GAY AND TOGETHER' discussion. On the flip side, we have Hespith and Branka, who we're told are a couple in game. In their case, finding out felt natural (and was pretty important in showcasing how far Branka had fallen) in a way that finding out about Wade and Herren wouldn't have. In fact, I don't think we find out about any couple unless it's important somehow, to a plot or side quest, usually; but I'm not going to assume that most of the people in Thedas are single just because when I walk into most of the houses there's just one person living there.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

...Why is this an issue for anyone?

I mean...with all the various crazy things we're expected to go along with in game magic, darkspawn, demons, and all the rest how can anyone take issue with something that just isn't a big deal.

The various LI's in DA2 bar Sebastian are hawkesexual and that's all that should matter.



...
And Wade and Herren are absolutely adorable together.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

...Why is this an issue for anyone?

I mean...with all the various crazy things we're expected to go along with in game magic, darkspawn, demons, and all the rest how can anyone take issue with something that just isn't a big deal.

The various LI's in DA2 bar Sebastian are hawkesexual and that's all that should matter.



...
And Wade and Herren are absolutely adorable together.

It's an issue because people are too busy playing generalization and pure assumption on world interaction level  instead of just concentrate on their own character. This is what you get when you observe and being outside of your character too much. You forget each person is an individual that no one can understand to pass a solid judgement. When you judge other people's character and reaction ( whether they are homesexual or bi-sexual oriented or bdsm or asexual or whatever craps ), you only get generalization and pure assumption since you are not the one who think and feel as the character. A typical flaw argument that  third person's observer always do is they always think they know everything and everyone. But then again, I never understand the interest of discussing characters' persona other than mine. Discussing  Wade's sexuality? Yeah sure it's interesting but that is his character and not my character. He may be this person or that person. But I can never understand how he truly feels and how he thinks. The same goes to every NPCs. I don't want to be like Wade or Anders or Leliana or Isabela or anyone else. So why do I have to concern much about their sexuality or whoever the NPCs are? It's not like I must have sex or romance or make friends with every NPCs. All I care is my own character. For example if my character starts to talk independantly or react in a manner that I don't want, now that's bother me a lot more than Ander's trying to hit on me.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 février 2012 - 01:56 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Nejeli wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

"Canon" is
something that really only matters to fans. There's nothing that is
actually in the game itself as written/acted that tells us that Wade and
Herren are a gay couple (or, for that matter, that Dumbledore is gay),
and considering that I'm evaluating the games on their merits, not their
merits and whatever their authors post on BSN, no, I don't think that
revealing on the internets that two characters are liek totally a gay
couple guise is an acceptable substitute for designing your fictional
society as if gay people existed in it.

How would it have come out in the game? We only interact with Wade and Herren when they're working. They're both busy with their various jobs. Since neither of them small talk about anything else, it would have been totally jarring to have either of them infodump about being a couple. I thought there were enough subtle hints that you could safely assume they were one, and I much prefer that over a heavy-handed, awkward, and unnecessary 'WE'RE GAY AND TOGETHER' discussion. On the flip side, we have Hespith and Branka, who we're told are a couple in game. In their case, finding out felt natural (and was pretty important in showcasing how far Branka had fallen) in a way that finding out about Wade and Herren wouldn't have. In fact, I don't think we find out about any couple unless it's important somehow, to a plot or side quest, usually; but I'm not going to assume that most of the people in Thedas are single just because when I walk into most of the houses there's just one person living there.

This is generally the issue with Bioware storytelling - lots of emphasis on individual characters, little emphasis on society or how those characters interact with society. My point is not that "the game should have come out and said Wade and Herren are gay," my point is that if the game is going to make romantic relationships a major part of character interaction (and this is regardless of the gender of the participants) it should give us a reasonable idea of how romantic relationships function in its fictional pre-industrial society.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

For example if my character starts to talk independantly or react in a manner that I don't want, now that's bother me a lot more than Ander's trying to hit on me.

I, on the other hand, have no opinion one way or the other about Anders hitting on the PC. I am very interested to know, however, things like how big of a risk he's taking by doing so, because these things are important to good characterization.

[-leadintea-]

I haven't read all the pages so I'm not sure whether my point has been said or not but personally speaking as a gay male, I actually didn't care much at all for the way DA2 presented romances. It felt kinda lazy to just make the majority of the characters automatically be a viable romance for all types of Hawkes. It felt... hollow, to me. However, I do appreciate that it allowed other people to choose who they wanted to romance, but I preferred the way it was in the first one so... yeah. That's my $0.02.

[Maria Caliban]

Dumbledore being gay is not a model for minority viability I'm willing to get behind. If straight sexuality is present in the book then queer sexuality is present in the book.

While I'm at it, JK Rowling says Dumbledore is gay but also says that his attraction to a man led to death and disaster. Not cool.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

The official word was that same sex relationships are considered odd but not immoral in Fereldan and a minor quirk in Orlais. For some people like nobles and elves there is a pressure to get married and have kids, which is somewhat reflected in the game.

Which to me demonstrates that they didn't think their society through very clearly, or looked at how IRL low-tech and non-homophobic societies functioned.

Of the top of my head, ancient Athens and pre-modern Japan both had societies where male same-sex romance was accepted and even romanticized, but men were still expected to take wives and have children.

The only time I see same-sex relations as being exclusive is in areas in which men would presumably not have interaction between women: religious communities or military/hunter groups.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 février 2012 - 08:53 .

[Nejeli]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

[This is generally the issue with Bioware storytelling - lots of emphasis on individual characters, little emphasis on society or how those characters interact with society. My point is not that "the game should have come out and said Wade and Herren are gay," my point is that if the game is going to make romantic relationships a major part of character interaction (and this is regardless of the gender of the participants) it should give us a reasonable idea of how romantic relationships function in its fictional pre-industrial society.

But the romantic relationships aren't a major part of the character interaction, especially in DA2, and we do get  a reasonable idea of how romantic relationships function. We know that Fereldans are more reserved than Antivans and Orlesians. We know that human/elf pairings are looked down on, amongst both humans and elves. We know that it's frowned upon for a noble to get with a commoner. We know that it's incredibly hard for Circle mages to form any kind of permanent attachments even between themselves. We know there's a huge divide between caste and casteless dwarves and that it's risky for them to become involved with each other. Yes, nothing really addresses gender, but maybe that's because the genders of the people involved just aren't as important as these other things. Male Hawke is likely to get the same social backlash if he gets with Merrill as he would with Fenris, because they're both elves and very much beneath him in status. Fenris being male too is almost unimportant, because people are going to be focusing on the fact that he's an elf.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I, on the other
hand, have no opinion one way or the other about Anders hitting on the
PC. I am very interested to know, however, things like how big of a risk
he's taking by doing so, because these things are important to good
characterization.

He's an apostate, abomination, and a Grey Warden on the run and he has no idea whether Hawke will turn him in or not, and he's spent his life around people that don't like or approve of him. Of course hitting on Hawke was a huge risk for him, both emotional and otherwise.

[TEWR]

I don't know. Anders doesn't take well to people not liking him. He also tends to react super-defensively. I've never choosen that particular option (if I don't plan to romance Anders, I just pick the 'No, it's not a problem' option and then don't pick anymore romance options) so I'm not sure what's said or how disdainful or mean Hawke might have been, but I can easily see this exchange leaving Anders thinking 'Great, yet another person I have to work with that doesn't like me/doesn't see things my way' in which case him gaining rivalry make sense.

Yea but Plaintiff was originally arguing that Anders had to gain rivalry for him to be disappointed. And that because it's a video game, this is fine.

Now, ignoring how Anders is a mentally unstable person and shows disapproval because he thinks Hawke is the thought police, then no it isn't fine. The points I'm iffy on, but his reaction is fine, so we're going to ignore Anders' persona for the time being.

If he was a mentally stable person that didn't act as if Hawke was the thought police, then the points gained would not be fine. If Bioware wanted him to be disappointed, this could be conveyed through facial animations, cutscenes, and dialogue.

But gaining Rivalry for it is just bad because that goes against what the devs have said F/R should be looked at as.

....I hope that made sense and didn't sound like some mindless conglomerate of words.

[Masako52]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...
This is generally the issue with Bioware storytelling - lots of emphasis on individual characters, little emphasis on society or how those characters interact with society. My point is not that "the game should have come out and said Wade and Herren are gay," my point is that if the game is going to make romantic relationships a major part of character interaction (and this is regardless of the gender of the participants) it should give us a reasonable idea of how romantic relationships function in its fictional pre-industrial society.

First off, I disagree. Wade and Herren aren't, by far, the only "canon" same sex relationship portrayed. Hespith and Branka, Leliana and Marjolaine, Zevran and Taliesen, Nicolas and Julien, Martine and Feren... Additionally, you can flirt with Iona and Dairren in a same-sex Noble origin. A male Warden can seduce a male guard in the prison cell bit. This is only in Dragon Age Origins, and books. Dragon Age 2 is even more open with sexuality. I got the feeling, for example, that the Viscount's son and the qunari were an item, but I'm not sure about that.

I'm all for world building, but I don't get what you're asking for. Would you be happier if a gay character got his head bashed in by an angry mob or something, would that make it more "realistic"? I see absolutely no issue with how it's portrayed. There has been no "homophobia" in Thedas to my recollection - being required to marry someone of opposite sex doesn't mean homophobia, it means that it's important to produce a child. You keep talking about how you feel Bioware failed at portraying a non-homophobic world and frankly, I don't know what you're going on about. Not talking about it and obsessing over it is the ULTIMATE sign of "not giving a crap" - which is the best thing. Bioware has been very clear that they aren't interested in portraying this issue. Discrimination has been reserved for elves and mages, etc.

I'm having trouble connecting on why this is such a big deal. Because you can romance same sex characters, Dragon Age 2 was a big failure because there isn't a detailed manual on social tolerance/intolerance in the codex? The world you've been shown is the world. You don't see the Chantry screaming about the evils of sodomy? Maybe they don't.

Also, you keep bringing up Skyrim and Fable. I appreciate that they allow you to romance same-sex people, and I enjoyed them more because of that. However, those relationships are still extremely minor and feature non-developed characters besides basic personality and dialogue, and therefore not developed relationships. Dragon Age 2 is different, it does take the issue much further and with much more heart. Additionally, it's more than "if you want to" - you'll see same-sex relationships and hints of same sex attraction even if you're not squinting your eyes for it. That's huge and it's amazing. And it's a good thing.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Masako52 wrote...

I'm all for world building, but I don't get what you're asking for. Would you be happier if a gay character got his head bashed in by an angry mob or something, would that make it more "realistic"?

It wouldn't be true to the world they're trying to portray. They're trying to portray a world similar to medieval Europe with significant differences, one of those differences being significantly less homophobia and sexism.

Masako52 wrote...
Discrimination has been reserved for elves and mages, etc.

Once again discrimination is not the issue, since Bioware is interested in establishing a world less discriminatory than our own. My issue is different. There's a feeling of inauthenticity you get from both Dragon Age games, 2 to a much greater extent, in the portrayal of relationships. Characters and society in these games appear to be acting as if things that influence relationships that we take for granted (social safety nets, reliable contraception, and so on) exist in their world. This is actually more glaring in some of the heterosexual romantic relationships, but it's a problem with all of them.

Masako52 wrote...
Also, you keep bringing up Skyrim and Fable. I appreciate that they allow you to romance same-sex people, and I enjoyed them more because of that. However, those relationships are still extremely minor and feature non-developed characters besides basic personality and dialogue, and therefore not developed relationships. Dragon Age 2 is different, it does take the issue much further and with much more heart. Additionally, it's more than "if you want to" - you'll see same-sex relationships and hints of same sex attraction even if you're not squinting your eyes for it. That's huge and it's amazing. And it's a good thing.

No, Dragon Age 2 doesn't take the issue further - that's the point. Any worldbuilding it engages in is accidental worldbuilding by ommission, just like in Fable or Skyrim.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Nejeli wrote...

Male Hawke is likely to get the same social backlash if he gets with Merrill as he would with Fenris, because they're both elves and very much beneath him in status. Fenris being male too is almost unimportant, because people are going to be focusing on the fact that he's an elf.

Head canon =/= a game actually establishing something.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dumbledore being gay is not a model for minority viability I'm willing to get behind. If straight sexuality is present in the book then queer sexuality is present in the book.

While I'm at it, JK Rowling says Dumbledore is gay but also says that his attraction to a man led to death and disaster. Not cool.

Yeah, it is massively unfortunate implications-wise that the one gay in the entire story almost becomes a wizard **** because of it.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

The official word was that same sex relationships are considered odd but not immoral in Fereldan and a minor quirk in Orlais. For some people like nobles and elves there is a pressure to get married and have kids, which is somewhat reflected in the game.

Which to me demonstrates that they didn't think their society through very clearly, or looked at how IRL low-tech and non-homophobic societies functioned.

Of the top of my head, ancient Athens and pre-modern Japan both had societies where male same-sex romance was accepted and even romanticized, but men were still expected to take wives and have children.

The only time I see same-sex relations as being exclusive is in areas in which men would presumably not have interaction between women: religious communities or military/hunter groups.

See, that's an element I would have really been interested in seeing in the game - the question of exclusivity. It would have been interesting to see modern conceptions of relationship exclusivity challenged, and it would have also been interesting to see how Bioware would have portrayed a pre-industrial society where same-sex relationships could have been exclusive. For instance, you'd expect the Grey Wardens to differ from society as a whole on this, which is something that I think the DA:O writers seemed to be aware of about 75% of the time. (Of course, many of them went on to be DA2 writers, which just goes to show the importance of editing).

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 05 février 2012 - 02:30 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

I'm all for world building, but I don't get what you're asking for. Would you be happier if a gay character got his head bashed in by an angry mob or something, would that make it more "realistic"?

It wouldn't be true to the world they're trying to portray. They're trying to portray a world similar to medieval Europe with significant differences, one of those differences being significantly less homophobia and sexism.

 
I recall seeing some quotes from devs and mods in which they stated that while Thedas is medieval-esque in look and perhaps some feel, it does not draw heavily or siginificantly from our own medieval history. Nor is Thedas meant to be any parallel to Earth as we know it. There are some common aesthetics, sure (found in many a world in the fantasy genre) - but Thedas, the world that Thedas exists in, is not meant to be our world in the past (poor paraphrasing, but that was the gist I got).

And while sure, you can step into a game and immediately have a primer that explains everything about the world, down to how the common folk prepare their eggs for breakfast, I think Bioware takes the approach of letting the player discover the world by walking through it - talking to people, seeing how they work and play, reading the parchment you find (codex entries and the like). 

 

Masako52 wrote...
Discrimination has been reserved for elves and mages, etc.

Once again discrimination is not the issue, since Bioware is interested in establishing a world less discriminatory than our own. My issue is different. There's a feeling of inauthenticity you get from both Dragon Age games, 2 to a much greater extent, in the portrayal of relationships. Characters and society in these games appear to be acting as if things that influence relationships that we take for granted (social safety nets, reliable contraception, and so on) exist in their world. This is actually more glaring in some of the heterosexual romantic relationships, but it's a problem with all of them.

"Inauthenticity" is a matter of opinion. And again, not everything is going to be clear cut and dry in the DA-world because that may not be in line with how the story is being told. While this does not work for some players, for others, it's perfectly ok. A person can immerse his/herself in the world by moving their character along through the story and subplots, by seeing how the companions (and other NPCs) react to things said or events around them. 

Maybe it's just a matter of the manner of storytelling not being in line with expectation. Which does not make the storytelling weak or faulty or bad. It just means it's not the type of story that certain people enjoy. 

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I recall seeing some quotes from devs and mods in which they stated that while Thedas is medieval-esque in look and perhaps some feel, it does not draw heavily or siginificantly from our own medieval history. Nor is Thedas meant to be any parallel to Earth as we know it. There are some common aesthetics, sure (found in many a world in the fantasy genre) - but Thedas, the world that Thedas exists in, is not meant to be our world in the past (poor paraphrasing, but that was the gist I got).

And while sure, you can step into a game and immediately have a primer that explains everything about the world, down to how the common folk prepare their eggs for breakfast, I think Bioware takes the approach of letting the player discover the world by walking through it - talking to people, seeing how they work and play, reading the parchment you find (codex entries and the like).

The (human) societies we have seen thus far tend to either be hereditary monarchies or city-states, both at a pre-industrial technological level and without significant social safety nets. Therefore, we could expect similar economic and social incentives to affect the people of TheDAS than we would our own in similar situations. That is, assuming worldbuilding was meant to convey realism in human behavior and interaction vs. throw a bunch of loosely medieval tropes together and call it a day.

 

"Inauthenticity" is a matter of opinion. And again, not everything is going to be clear cut and dry in the DA-world because that may not be in line with how the story is being told. While this does not work for some players, for others, it's perfectly ok. A person can immerse his/herself in the world by moving their character along through the story and subplots, by seeing how the companions (and other NPCs) react to things said or events around them. 

Maybe it's just a matter of the manner of storytelling not being in line with expectation. Which does not make the storytelling weak or faulty or bad. It just means it's not the type of story that certain people enjoy. 

Well, the storytelling is weak, but for mostly unrelated reasons. A pet peeve of mine is when people write SF without thinking clearly about how people's lives would be affected by the nature of the setting - technology, magic, etc. Characters without believable interaction with their world tend to come off as flat and shallow.

And going back to the original point, while the decision to include a handful of gay relationships in their story is commendable, the lack of careful thought about how these relationships play off the context of their setting (the Bas-Lag series is an example of doin it rite) seriously weakens any progressive impact their work might have. Especially since Fable did the same thing half a decade earlier. In fact, I recall Jade Empire doing the same thing, better.

[esper]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Nejeli wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

"Canon" is
something that really only matters to fans. There's nothing that is
actually in the game itself as written/acted that tells us that Wade and
Herren are a gay couple (or, for that matter, that Dumbledore is gay),
and considering that I'm evaluating the games on their merits, not their
merits and whatever their authors post on BSN, no, I don't think that
revealing on the internets that two characters are liek totally a gay
couple guise is an acceptable substitute for designing your fictional
society as if gay people existed in it.

How would it have come out in the game? We only interact with Wade and Herren when they're working. They're both busy with their various jobs. Since neither of them small talk about anything else, it would have been totally jarring to have either of them infodump about being a couple. I thought there were enough subtle hints that you could safely assume they were one, and I much prefer that over a heavy-handed, awkward, and unnecessary 'WE'RE GAY AND TOGETHER' discussion. On the flip side, we have Hespith and Branka, who we're told are a couple in game. In their case, finding out felt natural (and was pretty important in showcasing how far Branka had fallen) in a way that finding out about Wade and Herren wouldn't have. In fact, I don't think we find out about any couple unless it's important somehow, to a plot or side quest, usually; but I'm not going to assume that most of the people in Thedas are single just because when I walk into most of the houses there's just one person living there.

This is generally the issue with Bioware storytelling - lots of emphasis on individual characters, little emphasis on society or how those characters interact with society. My point is not that "the game should have come out and said Wade and Herren are gay," my point is that if the game is going to make romantic relationships a major part of character interaction (and this is regardless of the gender of the participants) it should give us a reasonable idea of how romantic relationships function in its fictional pre-industrial society.

I am going to bring this one up even if the debate has gone a little further.
Is is not an 'issue' as in a problem. Is a style of story telling that is completely valid. Bioware stories are personal, espcially dragon age. But we still see how the society interact with the indivuduals or strictly speakin I guess it is the other way around. A game does not need a third narrator or anyone else saying, the world function like this and this and this for us to slowely gain the idea of the way it is like.

As for Wade and Herren, their romance had and impact on the society. I never interacted with them enough to clearly remember which was which, but before they partnered up the one who was the actual smith was close to going out of busniness because he apperently took years finishing one armour (that was proberly a hyperbole, but none the less he took a long time, too long to make enough money). That the smith is gay, is simply a non-issue for Thedas and does not change the way the people interact with him, the speed, efficiency and looks of his armour however are something they care about. It is the same with Branka and Hespith, their gender is a non-issue, but Branka so obsessed with the anvil that she sacrificed her whole land is not. 

Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

esper wrote...

I am going to bring this one up even if the debate has gone a little further.
Is is not an 'issue' as in a problem. Is a style of story telling that is completely valid. Bioware stories are personal, espcially dragon age. But we still see how the society interact with the indivuduals or strictly speakin I guess it is the other way around. A game does not need a third narrator or anyone else saying, the world function like this and this and this for us to slowely gain the idea of the way it is like.

The point is not that the game shows rather than tells - the point is that the game neither shows nor tells. You never get the impression that the society in the game is anything other than a collection of loosely associated pseudo-medieval tropes. Dragon Age: Origins has moments that escape this (Landsmeet, anything having to do with the Dwarves) but in general there are a wide range of missed opportunites to give the characters depth by showing how they interact with the societies they live in.

esper wrote...
Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

Yes, which is why the fact that they didn't pay attention to the worldbuilding and the relationship between their characters and their environment - instead opting to haphazardly lift tropes from the modern world and the Standard Fantasy Setting - unfortunate.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 05 février 2012 - 08:09 .

[Heimdall]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Of the top of my head, ancient Athens and pre-modern Japan both had societies where male same-sex romance was accepted and even romanticized, but men were still expected to take wives and have children.

Didn't ancient Athens tend to view homosexuality as a phase in the lives of young men before they got married and had children?

[Heimdall]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

esper wrote...
Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

Yes, which is why the fact that they didn't pay attention to the worldbuilding and the relationship between their characters and their environment - instead opting to haphazardly lift tropes from the modern world and the Standard Fantasy Setting - unfortunate.

Not to intrude on you're debate, but it sounds like you want bioware to make their characters react to something as noteworthy that is not noteworthy in Thedas.  I fail to see how that is bad.

[esper]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

esper wrote...
Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

Yes, which is why the fact that they didn't pay attention to the worldbuilding and the relationship between their characters and their environment - instead opting to haphazardly lift tropes from the modern world and the Standard Fantasy Setting - unfortunate.

Not to intrude on you're debate, but it sounds like you want bioware to make their characters react to something as noteworthy that is not noteworthy in Thedas.  I fail to see how that is bad.

You are not intruding Lord Asier. In fact you are making the point that I am trying to make. S/S relenstionships are not noteworthy for the thedasians (or however you say it), so they should not react to it.

[esper]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

esper wrote...

I am going to bring this one up even if the debate has gone a little further.
Is is not an 'issue' as in a problem. Is a style of story telling that is completely valid. Bioware stories are personal, espcially dragon age. But we still see how the society interact with the indivuduals or strictly speakin I guess it is the other way around. A game does not need a third narrator or anyone else saying, the world function like this and this and this for us to slowely gain the idea of the way it is like.

The point is not that the game shows rather than tells - the point is that the game neither shows nor tells. You never get the impression that the society in the game is anything other than a collection of loosely associated pseudo-medieval tropes. Dragon Age: Origins has moments that escape this (Landsmeet, anything having to do with the Dwarves) but in general there are a wide range of missed opportunites to give the characters depth by showing how they interact with the societies they live in.

We are generally going to have to disagree here. I actually feels that Thedas is fairly well preseneted to me and that I have a good grasp of its society. Since we are disagreeing on such a fundenmental point I am not sure how to proceed our debate.

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

esper wrote...
Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

Yes, which is why the fact that they didn't pay attention to the worldbuilding and the relationship between their characters and their environment - instead opting to haphazardly lift tropes from the modern world and the Standard Fantasy Setting - unfortunate.

Again. We disagree on something fundenmental here. I think that Thedas is fairly well built and that the tensions and (what is the right english word....) predjudicies and even hate amongst certain ethinics groups is well argumented in game so I don't see the lift from it being not earthly to be unfortunate, in fact it is the opposite. 
I do not know how to continue discussing with you as we are not even going to agree on the first point making further debate pointless as I cannot see how we can't ever come to understand one another.

Thedas does not really have any noteworthy problem with homosexual relentionship and I can't see any in game reason why they should.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

esper wrote...
Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

Yes, which is why the fact that they didn't pay attention to the worldbuilding and the relationship between their characters and their environment - instead opting to haphazardly lift tropes from the modern world and the Standard Fantasy Setting - unfortunate.

Not to intrude on you're debate, but it sounds like you want bioware to make their characters react to something as noteworthy that is not noteworthy in Thedas.  I fail to see how that is bad.

Yes and no - I don't, for example, care if individuals in TheDAS care about sexual orientation or even have a concept of sexual orientation (many non-homophobic pre-industrial societies didn't.) I do care if they've created a believable world, which would (if they want to make romantic relationships a major part of their storytelling) require them to spend at least five seconds thinking of the ways that someone living in a pre-industiral society might have slightly different concepts re: sex/romantic love/marriage/etc. than a modern real-world individual.

[Heimdall]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

esper wrote...
Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

Yes, which is why the fact that they didn't pay attention to the worldbuilding and the relationship between their characters and their environment - instead opting to haphazardly lift tropes from the modern world and the Standard Fantasy Setting - unfortunate.

Not to intrude on you're debate, but it sounds like you want bioware to make their characters react to something as noteworthy that is not noteworthy in Thedas.  I fail to see how that is bad.

Yes and no - I don't, for example, care if individuals in TheDAS care about sexual orientation or even have a concept of sexual orientation (many non-homophobic pre-industrial societies didn't.) I do care if they've created a believable world, which would (if they want to make romantic relationships a major part of their storytelling) require them to spend at least five seconds thinking of the ways that someone living in a pre-industiral society might have slightly different concepts re: sex/romantic love/marriage/etc. than a modern real-world individual.

I don't think romantic relationships are a major part of their story telling.  At any rate, they want to make the relationships, something they probably consider extra, a little more relatable to the player, many of whom I think would feel frustrated rather than impressed by the sublties.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 février 2012 - 10:13 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

esper wrote...
Thedas is not earth in any way. It's dorminant religions is very different from our own at the Medivial time, men and womens roles are different, society's structure are different as well and also different in each society. They have both darkspawn and demons which are very real threaths, and most important of all very different areas in where people care about who you sleep with. Man/women largely irrelevant, mage, elf, dwarf very relevant. You demand that bioware make the society react on a parring like Wade and Herren, but Thedas's society is likely not a society that cares about such a relationship.  

Yes, which is why the fact that they didn't pay attention to the worldbuilding and the relationship between their characters and their environment - instead opting to haphazardly lift tropes from the modern world and the Standard Fantasy Setting - unfortunate.

Not to intrude on you're debate, but it sounds like you want bioware to make their characters react to something as noteworthy that is not noteworthy in Thedas.  I fail to see how that is bad.

Yes and no - I don't, for example, care if individuals in TheDAS care about sexual orientation or even have a concept of sexual orientation (many non-homophobic pre-industrial societies didn't.) I do care if they've created a believable world, which would (if they want to make romantic relationships a major part of their storytelling) require them to spend at least five seconds thinking of the ways that someone living in a pre-industiral society might have slightly different concepts re: sex/romantic love/marriage/etc. than a modern real-world individual.

Romances aren't actually a major part of the storytelling - they're optional content, optional paths that a player can choose to follow, or not. But, that doesn't mean that Bioware hasn't attempted to make a believable world. I suppose I find it a bit presumptuous to assume that the devs did not spend more than 5 seconds mulling on their world-building, or their character creation.

The LIs each have their own backstories, their own prejudices and whims, their own dreams and desires - those aspects are vital to relationships. If someone is so dedicated to the plight of mages, for example, so to merge with a spirit and become a different entity, well then how is that person going to dedicate himself to loving another? If someone has avoided love all her life, has seemingly had a casual attitude toward matters of the heart because she did not want to be vulnerable or was wary over trusting someone, how is that person going to push past those obstacles to let someone into her heart? To me, that covers quite the gamut of romantic love, because those plot arcs deal with the giving of self - the mental, emotional, and maybe even spiritual act of surrending to love and being loved.

I don't think that the decision was to ignore societal concepts of sex and/or marriage - it was, rather, to focus on the individual characters versus Thedan society at large. Though you could glean plenty about how those individuals see their place in the world by their dialogue/banter/quests, etc.