438 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Jademoon121 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I want to get this jotted down before my mind makes me forget it, and even now I think I'll forget a few things because my hands are shaking for some reason and I'm making mistaking grammar mistakes:

While I do not mind the companions in DAII being bisexual due to circumstance bringing them all together, I do not want this to become the norm for all of the companions in the future. At the very least, it shouldn't be the norm or how the majority is for all of Thedas.

Because then the world loses all sense of believability in terms of sexual orientation, at least to me. I would rather have at least several instances of NPCs that proclaim they only like one gender and one gender only. Some flirtable with, others not.

Otherwise, there is no sense that this world which is set to reflect midieval times in a different universe has any sense of conflict in sexual orientation.

"Oh my only son likes men and there's no other relative to carry on our line? That's okay. Our noble line doesn't need to continue."

Even in our modern society, people are apprehensive about coming forward with their sexual orientation.

Actually...homosexuality historically has been more welcomed in the higher classes than the common folk. Really, a noble only needs to sire one son, and then he can do whatever he wants in his bedroom. Just look at Orlais.

Yes but during the Renaissance homosexuality was largely opressed and fought against by the RCC, sometimes punishable by death.

First offenders would lose their balls, second offenders would lose their penis, and third offenders would be burned alive.

Note that I'm not actually calling homosexuality a crime. I'm just using the terminology used during that time period when it was considered a crime.

[Jademoon121]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I want to get this jotted down before my mind makes me forget it, and even now I think I'll forget a few things because my hands are shaking for some reason and I'm making mistaking grammar mistakes:

While I do not mind the companions in DAII being bisexual due to circumstance bringing them all together, I do not want this to become the norm for all of the companions in the future. At the very least, it shouldn't be the norm or how the majority is for all of Thedas.

Because then the world loses all sense of believability in terms of sexual orientation, at least to me. I would rather have at least several instances of NPCs that proclaim they only like one gender and one gender only. Some flirtable with, others not.

Otherwise, there is no sense that this world which is set to reflect midieval times in a different universe has any sense of conflict in sexual orientation.

"Oh my only son likes men and there's no other relative to carry on our line? That's okay. Our noble line doesn't need to continue."

Even in our modern society, people are apprehensive about coming forward with their sexual orientation.

Actually...homosexuality historically has been more welcomed in the higher classes than the common folk. Really, a noble only needs to sire one son, and then he can do whatever he wants in his bedroom. Just look at Orlais.

Yes but during the Renaissance homosexuality was largely opressed and fought against by the RCC, sometimes punishable by death.

First offenders would lose their balls, second offenders would lose their penis, and third offenders would be burned alive.

Note that I'm not actually calling homosexuality a crime. I'm just using the terminology used during that time period when it was considered a crime.

That didn't stop Da Vinci and King James of England 
And again, this seems to be pretty common in Orlais. If you're talking about out world, then I agree, but in Thedas, it doesn't seem much of an issue.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 23 janvier 2012 - 02:54 .

[Ponendus]

Jademoon121 wrote...

So by your logic, because I myself am bisexual, I have to drop it in coversation every so often to make sure that I don't confuse people? No thanks. Sexuality only affects deep, personal relationships. Me likeing guys or girls has nothing to do with how I walk, act, and talk on a day-to-day basis. Also, whether you believe it or not, bi/homosexuality is a lot more common than what most people think. And that's not considerding all the heteroflexibles and pansexuals in the world who really don't care what gender their lover is. In fact, Merrill is probably a pansexual; she's into the person, not the body.

Good post. I agree with everything you say here.

[Gibb_Shepard]

No reply of actual rebuttal that relates at all to the topic? Resorting to petty insults to fill your quota of sadism for the day?

I think we have a winner ladies and gentleman. I think the outspoken internet troll has finally admitted defeat. Oh what a grand day! A day to be remembered indeed!

[GodWood]

Jademoon121 wrote...
So by your logic, because I myself am bisexual, I have to drop it in coversation every so often to make sure that I don't confuse people? No thanks.

Well that's certainly not what I said at all.

[whykikyouwhy]

GodWood wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
How often does a person's sexuality or sexual identity come up in their day-to-day interactions with other people?

You misread.

Yes, it's not brought up but it does influence how you interact with other people.

I'm going to repost what I wrote:

How often does a person's sexuality or sexual identity come up in their day-to-day interactions with other people? I know that my gayness doesn't get discussed or brought up at work or when I'm going out with friends and loved ones. And while it is an aspect of who I am, it is not the main filter with which I see the world - it's not something I bring up, or call attention to, because it's a part of my whole person. I don't separate it out. 

So I'm not sure why that would need to be the case with characters. Especially in a society where the focus is not on sexuality/sexual identity.

With that aspect of a person so ingrained in who he/she is, how do you propose to show specifically how sexuality influences interactions in a game? If we don't consciously separate that aspect of ourselves, or put the focus on it, how would you even see it come into play with characters? 

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I want to get this jotted down before my mind makes me forget it, and even now I think I'll forget a few things because my hands are shaking for some reason and I'm making mistaking grammar mistakes:

While I do not mind the companions in DAII being bisexual due to circumstance bringing them all together, I do not want this to become the norm for all of the companions in the future. At the very least, it shouldn't be the norm or how the majority is for all of Thedas.

Because then the world loses all sense of believability in terms of sexual orientation, at least to me. I would rather have at least several instances of NPCs that proclaim they only like one gender and one gender only. Some flirtable with, others not.

Otherwise, there is no sense that this world which is set to reflect midieval times in a different universe has any sense of conflict in sexual orientation.

"Oh my only son likes men and there's no other relative to carry on our line? That's okay. Our noble line doesn't need to continue."

Even in our modern society, people are apprehensive about coming forward with their sexual orientation.

Actually...homosexuality historically has been more welcomed in the higher classes than the common folk. Really, a noble only needs to sire one son, and then he can do whatever he wants in his bedroom. Just look at Orlais.

Yes but during the Renaissance homosexuality was largely opressed and fought against by the RCC, sometimes punishable by death.

First offenders would lose their balls, second offenders would lose their penis, and third offenders would be burned alive.

Note that I'm not actually calling homosexuality a crime. I'm just using the terminology used during that time period when it was considered a crime.

Who cares what happened during the Renaissance? Thedas never had a Renaissance.

Just because it looks medieval doesn't mean it has to reflect the attitudes of that time period, and I see nothing to suggest that the developers intended to. Thedas is a completely different culture with a completely different history. There is plenty of internal justification in the games themselves for why the attitude towards sexuality is different in Thedas.

The RCC may have persecuted homosexuals, but the Chantry is the dominant religious power in Thedas and it doesn't care where you stick it. Pretty much the only point in its favour.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:04 .

[Jademoon121]

GodWood wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...
So by your logic, because I myself am bisexual, I have to drop it in coversation every so often to make sure that I don't confuse people? No thanks.

Well that's certainly not what I said at all.

"Characters like Merril and Fenris are supposedly bisexual as they'll romance a same gendered Hawke, however outside their interaction with Hawke they're never presented as characters who are interested their own gender. If I'm expected to believe that these characters are actually bisexual (and that their sexuality hasn't just been tacked on) I want their sexuality to actually visibly affect their interactions with other characters. Have them flirt with s/s characters, perv on s/s characters etc etc."


I don't flirt, I don't perv (whatever that is) and I don't like puting my sexuality on my sleeve. Some people are private, they dont' want personal details out in the open. NPCs and characters are no different.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:02 .

[TEWR]

Jademoon121 wrote...

That didn't stop Da Vinci and King James of England 

Ha! Nice.

Though Da Vinci's sexuality is limited to speculation. It isn't really known what his sexual preference was, as people take some of the letters he received and the content therein to mean he had a sexual relationship with his pupils.

Granted, there is an instance in 1476 where Da Vinci and a few other people -- one being a Medici -- were charged with sodomy on a male prostitute. But that was dismissed due to lack of evidence, though possibly the result of the Medici family's influence.

But still, nothing concrete is known about Da Vinci's preferred sexual orientation.

Though now we're getting off-topic.

[GodWood]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

GodWood wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
How often does a person's sexuality or sexual identity come up in their day-to-day interactions with other people?

You misread.

Yes, it's not brought up but it does influence how you interact with other people.

I'm going to repost what I wrote:

How often does a person's sexuality or sexual identity come up in their day-to-day interactions with other people? I know that my gayness doesn't get discussed or brought up at work or when I'm going out with friends and loved ones. And while it is an aspect of who I am, it is not the main filter with which I see the world - it's not something I bring up, or call attention to, because it's a part of my whole person. I don't separate it out. 

So I'm not sure why that would need to be the case with characters. Especially in a society where the focus is not on sexuality/sexual identity.

With that aspect of a person so ingrained in who he/she is, how do you propose to show specifically how sexuality influences interactions in a game? If we don't consciously separate that aspect of ourselves, or put the focus on it, how would you even see it come into play with characters? 

I don't know why this is such a complex point. Yes your sexuality won't necessarily be brought up but it will influence how you interact with others.

E,g) The way a gay man may interact with an attractive male would be different then the way I interact with an attractive male.

[GodWood]

Jademoon121 wrote...
I don't flirt, I don't perv (whatever that is) and I don't like puting my sexuality on my sleeve. Some people are private, they dont' want personal details out in the open.

Fenris and Merril are. Or at least they are when it comes to the opposite gender.

Strange no?

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No reply of actual rebuttal that relates at all to the topic? Resorting to petty insults to fill your quota of sadism for the day?

I think we have a winner ladies and gentleman. I think the outspoken internet troll has finally admitted defeat. Oh what a grand day! A day to be remembered indeed!

Talking about yourself in third person again?

You ignored the bulk of my first post to **** about a petty point that you misunderstood. When I explained and justified that statement, you pretended it was irrelevent (it wasn't) and said you didn't want an argument..

If you don't want a debate, don't talk to me. I promise, I won't miss you.

[Chun Hei]

Plaintiff wrote...

The RCC may have persecuted homosexuals, but the Chantry is the dominant religious power in Thedas and it doesn't care where you stick it. Pretty much the only point in its favour.

The Chantry is also run by women. We are more open minded on these things. Sorry about Sarah Palin though.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

GodWood wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
How often does a person's sexuality or sexual identity come up in their day-to-day interactions with other people?

You misread.

Yes, it's not brought up but it does influence how you interact with other people.

I'm going to repost what I wrote:

How often does a person's sexuality or sexual identity come up in their day-to-day interactions with other people? I know that my gayness doesn't get discussed or brought up at work or when I'm going out with friends and loved ones. And while it is an aspect of who I am, it is not the main filter with which I see the world - it's not something I bring up, or call attention to, because it's a part of my whole person. I don't separate it out. 

So I'm not sure why that would need to be the case with characters. Especially in a society where the focus is not on sexuality/sexual identity.

With that aspect of a person so ingrained in who he/she is, how do you propose to show specifically how sexuality influences interactions in a game? If we don't consciously separate that aspect of ourselves, or put the focus on it, how would you even see it come into play with characters? 

I don't know why this is such a complex point. Yes your sexuality won't necessarily be brought up but it will influence how you interact with others.

E,g) The way a gay man may interact with an attractive male would be different then the way I interact with an attractive male.

And who exactly would Anders/Fenris interact with that's s/s differently than they already interact? 

Each other? They can't stand each other.

Varric? He's pretty much the cool big bro of the group.

Carver? Pretty sure neither Anders nor Fenris even respect Carver let alone are sexually attracted to him.

Donnic? Eh...he's Aveline's.

Everyone else is either a stranger/templar (whom...yeah.) or someone politically important that they wouldn't be perving on anyway.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:05 .

[Ponendus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I want to get this jotted down before my mind makes me forget it, and even now I think I'll forget a few things because my hands are shaking for some reason and I'm making mistaking grammar mistakes:

While I do not mind the companions in DAII being bisexual due to circumstance bringing them all together, I do not want this to become the norm for all of the companions in the future. At the very least, it shouldn't be the norm or how the majority is for all of Thedas.

Because then the world loses all sense of believability in terms of sexual orientation, at least to me. I would rather have at least several instances of NPCs that proclaim they only like one gender and one gender only. Some flirtable with, others not.

Otherwise, there is no sense that this world which is set to reflect midieval times in a different universe has any sense of conflict in sexual orientation.

"Oh my only son likes men and there's no other relative to carry on our line? That's okay. Our noble line doesn't need to continue."

Even in our modern society, people are apprehensive about coming forward with their sexual orientation.

I am in two minds about this Mr TEWR. On the one hand, I don't think comparisons to a medieval world is necessarily helpful, because I think that is an assumption that is what BioWare was going for (unless it was stated somewhere?). It is entirely possible this is a totally new world based on nothing.

However, I actually think your argument has the most weight of anything I've read. In places where 'royal lines' exist in Thedas (Orzammar for example) I can see a character being quite annoyed if their only son was unable to carry on the line due to their sexuality. I actually think that would be a fascinating storyline. I suggest telling Mr Gaider immediately, I would love to roleplay that son.

I think it is possible, nay likely, that there would be many in Thedas that dislike homosexuality (I know the Chantry is not one, which is fine but there may be other reasons), in which case I say put that prejudice in there, let's deal with it, lets roleplay it, lets see how that story plays out!

Modifié par Ponendus, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:05 .

[Jademoon121]

GodWood wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...
I don't flirt, I don't perv (whatever that is) and I don't like puting my sexuality on my sleeve. Some people are private, they dont' want personal details out in the open.

Fenris and Merril are. Or at least they are when it comes to the opposite gender.

Strange no?

And the same-sex. Whenever I played a male or female Hawke, I never got hit on by either of them.

[GodWood]

Ryzaki wrote...
And who exactly would Anders/Fenris interact with that's s/s differently than they already interact? 

Each other? They can't stand each other.

Varric? He's pretty much the cool big bro of the group.

Carver? Pretty sure neither Anders nor Fenris even respect Carver let alone are sexually attracted to him.

Donnic? Eh...he's Aveline's.

Cullen

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Who cares what happened during the Renaissance? Thedas never had a Renaissance.

Just because it looks meideval doesn't mean it has to reflect the attitudes of that time period. It is a completely different culture with a completely different history. There is plenty of internal justification in the games themselves for why the attitude towards sexuality is different in Thedas.

So what, it's going to reflect attitudes that haven't been seen and quite possibly may never be seen? I said in my first post that even in our modern society -- which Thedas reflects per a few dev posts IIRC -- people are apprehensive about coming forward with their sexuality, for fear of bullying, ostracism, and possibly murder.

The RCC may have persecuted homosexuals, but the Chantry is the dominant religious power in Thedas and it doesn't care where you stick it. Pretty much the only point in its favour.

Whereas the Dalish want their Elves to procreate and the nobility in Thedas encourage marrying opposite-gendered people.

The Qunari also seem to make sure that their people procreate. I doubt they look kindly on homosexuality. Granted I don't know everything about Qunari culture, but this is what I'm led to believe.

At any rate, you seem to have completely missed the point I was trying to make and only focused on the Renaissance bit.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And who exactly would Anders/Fenris interact with that's s/s differently than they already interact? 

Each other? They can't stand each other.

Varric? He's pretty much the cool big bro of the group.

Carver? Pretty sure neither Anders nor Fenris even respect Carver let alone are sexually attracted to him.

Donnic? Eh...he's Aveline's.

Cullen

Cullen's a templar so that rules Anders out immediately.

And Fenris barely knows the guy. Plus what makes you think Cullen would even want to interact with Fenris? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:06 .

[GodWood]

Jademoon121 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...
I don't flirt, I don't perv (whatever that is) and I don't like puting my sexuality on my sleeve. Some people are private, they dont' want personal details out in the open.

Fenris and Merril are. Or at least they are when it comes to the opposite gender.

Strange no?

And the same-sex. Whenever I played a male or female Hawke, I never got hit on by either of them.

Merril flirts with Carver and pervs on the qunari. Fenris flirts with Isabela and eventually sleeps with her. Outside of Hawke they're never presented as interested in their own gender.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...
I don't flirt, I don't perv (whatever that is) and I don't like puting my sexuality on my sleeve. Some people are private, they dont' want personal details out in the open.

Fenris and Merril are. Or at least they are when it comes to the opposite gender.

Strange no?

And the same-sex. Whenever I played a male or female Hawke, I never got hit on by either of them.

Merril flirts with Carver and pervs on the qunari. Fenris flirts with Isabela and eventually sleeps with her. Outside of Hawke they're never presented as interested in their own gender.

Merrill *knows* Carver (who happens to be a part of their little group) same with Isabela.

There's no one of the s/s that I could see Fenris perving on in the group (Varric is pretty much a bro  and Anders and him would sooner kill each other, he's pretty patronizing towards Carver as well) and Isabela pretty much treats Merrill like a little sis. Merrill and Aveline from what I could gather also fall in the like family thing (that and she could plain not be into Aveline).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:10 .

[Ponendus]

GodWood wrote...

Merril flirts with Carver and pervs on the qunari. Fenris flirts with Isabela and eventually sleeps with her. Outside of Hawke they're never presented as interested in their own gender.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean they aren't. Why do you need confirmation so much?

[whykikyouwhy]

GodWood wrote...
]I don't know why this is such a complex point. Yes your sexuality won't necessarily be brought up but it will influence how you interact with others.

E,g) The way a gay man may interact with an attractive male would be different then the way I interact with an attractive male.

I guess that really depends on whose criteria you are using to base attractiveness on. <_<

It's not that your point is so complex - it's that you haven't explained how you wish to see this incorporated into the game. Or rather, where it was lacking in the game.

Merrill comments on how the Qunari look. Isabela comments on Fenris's eyes. But neither remarks are anything that I would liken to be specifically stemming from their sexual identity. A person may make those types of comments regardless of whether or not they want to bed a person. 

[Jademoon121]

GodWood wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...
I don't flirt, I don't perv (whatever that is) and I don't like puting my sexuality on my sleeve. Some people are private, they dont' want personal details out in the open.

Fenris and Merril are. Or at least they are when it comes to the opposite gender.

Strange no?

And the same-sex. Whenever I played a male or female Hawke, I never got hit on by either of them.

Merril flirts with Carver and pervs on the qunari. Fenris flirts with Isabela and eventually sleeps with her. Outside of Hawke they're never presented as interested in their own gender.

Merrill sees Isabella as a sort of mentor and is only friends with Bethany, and for Fenris well...Anders is a mage and Varric just picks on him.

[GodWood]

Ryzaki wrote...
Cullen's a templar so that rules Anders out immediately.

And Fenris barely knows the guy. Plus what makes you think Cullen would even want to interact with Fenris?

Cullen+Fenrishashotmagehatingyaoisexwrittenalloverit

I dunno, he was the first guy I thought of. It doesn't matter who it is really I just think if a character is supposedly 'bisexual' they should be written as and presented as bisexual instead of just being heterosexual "unless Hawke's involved".