438 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Ponendus wrote...
However, I actually think your argument has the most weight of anything I've read. In places where 'royal lines' exist in Thedas (Orzammar for example) I can see a character being quite annoyed if their only son was unable to carry on the line due to their sexuality. I actually think that would be a fascinating storyline. I suggest telling Mr Gaider immediately, I would love to roleplay that son.

But that storyline is nonsense. Sure, a homosexual dwarf may not be super-keen to impregnate a woman, but that does not make him "unable". I don't like pumpkin, but I eat it anyway.

In a world like Thedas, where most noble marriages are purely business transactions and marrying for love is less common, there's no conflict at all. Gay dwarven noble marries some woman who wants a title, knocks her up, and keeps his piece/s of hot dwarf ass on the side.

Problem solved.

[Chun Hei]

@ GodWood -- I am confused. You are a s/s critics who WANTS the s/s characters to hit on everyone repeatedly and openly? Do you remember the whole Anders crap-tornado that struck this thread over Anders?

[Ponendus]

GodWood wrote...

I just think if a character is supposedly 'bisexual' they should be written as and presented as bisexual instead of just being heterosexual "unless Hawke's involved".

Ok, but can I ask for an example of how? I can't think of one that isn't just them running around and making crude remarks about passers-by. How do you get around the issue of characters that are not, by nature, crude?

[TEWR]

GodWood wrote...

Merril flirts with Carver and pervs on the qunari. Fenris flirts with Isabela and eventually sleeps with her. Outside of Hawke they're never presented as interested in their own gender.

You've got that backwards. Carver flirts with Merrill. Merrill just thinks she misses dirty jokes where they're not presented. Merrill actually shows no inclination towards being attracted to Carver.

Carver has an elf-fetish and he seems to only want to have sex with Merrill. It seems that he has only a physical attraction to Merrill and not an actual attraction towards who she is.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...
Cullen+Fenrishashotmagehatingyaoisexwrittenalloverit

I dunno, he was the first guy I thought of. It doesn't matter who it is really I just think if a character is supposedly 'bisexual' they should be written as and presented as bisexual instead of just being heterosexual "unless Hawke's involved".

Wut. Oh I see where you're going.

I don't have an issue with it. Fenris just wasn't attracted to any of the males Hawke knew is all. (Same for Merrill but with females).

It's not like they had a banquet to choose from.

[Chun Hei]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...
However, I actually think your argument has the most weight of anything I've read. In places where 'royal lines' exist in Thedas (Orzammar for example) I can see a character being quite annoyed if their only son was unable to carry on the line due to their sexuality. I actually think that would be a fascinating storyline. I suggest telling Mr Gaider immediately, I would love to roleplay that son.

But that storyline is nonsense. Sure, a homosexual dwarf may not be super-keen to impregnate a woman, but that does not make him "unable". I don't like pumpkin, but I eat it anyway.

In a world like Thedas, where most noble marriages are purely business transactions and marrying for love is less common, there's no conflict at all. Gay dwarven noble marries some woman who wants a title, knocks her up, and keeps his piece/s of hot dwarf ass on the side.

Problem solved.

Leandra mentions that she knows about female Hawke and Isabela fooling around and does not seem bothered by it. She even smiles. She still says she needs to find female Hawke a good husband though.

[GodWood]

Chun Hei wrote...
@ GodWood -- I am confused. You are a s/s critics who WANTS the s/s characters to hit on everyone repeatedly and openly? Do you remember the whole Anders crap-tornado that struck this thread over Anders?

I take no issue with the precense of s/s romances or flirtations. I just want them to be handled well and not feel tacked on.

[Ryzaki]

Chun Hei wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...
However, I actually think your argument has the most weight of anything I've read. In places where 'royal lines' exist in Thedas (Orzammar for example) I can see a character being quite annoyed if their only son was unable to carry on the line due to their sexuality. I actually think that would be a fascinating storyline. I suggest telling Mr Gaider immediately, I would love to roleplay that son.

But that storyline is nonsense. Sure, a homosexual dwarf may not be super-keen to impregnate a woman, but that does not make him "unable". I don't like pumpkin, but I eat it anyway.

In a world like Thedas, where most noble marriages are purely business transactions and marrying for love is less common, there's no conflict at all. Gay dwarven noble marries some woman who wants a title, knocks her up, and keeps his piece/s of hot dwarf ass on the side.

Problem solved.

Leandra mentions that she knows about female Hawke and Isabela fooling around and does not seem bothered by it. She even smiles. She still says she needs to find female Hawke a good husband though.

She did the same thing for my male Hawke and Fenris.

He just laughed inside. Marriage. Yeah that's a good one.

[TEWR]

Ponendus wrote...

GodWood wrote...

I just think if a character is supposedly 'bisexual' they should be written as and presented as bisexual instead of just being heterosexual "unless Hawke's involved".

Ok, but can I ask for an example of how? I can't think of one that isn't just them running around and making crude remarks about passers-by. How do you get around the issue of characters that are not, by nature, crude?

This would require the game to feel more alive, but people could come up to the characters in the PC's group and hit on him/her, to which the companion can either flirt back or say "Sorry, I don't swing that way.

Or it could just happen in cutscenes. Maybe you see Fenris flirting with a few other guys in the Hanged Man.

[Deadmac]

Time to rain on the parade... Do you know why heterosexual men like girl on girl action? Its taboo. Regardless about how meaningful the romance is applied, two girls engaged in a sexual situation is a turn on. Since homosexuality is considered taboo by society, the act is that much more tantalizing. When it comes to homosexuality between two guys, majority of both men and women find it to be gross. Once the subject becomes a mainstream issue, the world opposes the issue because 'we know its taboo'. Who do you think is playing "Dragon Age"? Some priest?

Modifié par Deadmac, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:17 .

[Ponendus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...
However, I actually think your argument has the most weight of anything I've read. In places where 'royal lines' exist in Thedas (Orzammar for example) I can see a character being quite annoyed if their only son was unable to carry on the line due to their sexuality. I actually think that would be a fascinating storyline. I suggest telling Mr Gaider immediately, I would love to roleplay that son.

But that storyline is nonsense. Sure, a homosexual dwarf may not be super-keen to impregnate a woman, but that does not make him "unable". I don't like pumpkin, but I eat it anyway.

In a world like Thedas, where most noble marriages are purely business transactions and marrying for love is less common, there's no conflict at all. Gay dwarven noble marries some woman who wants a title, knocks her up, and keeps his piece/s of hot dwarf ass on the side.

Problem solved.

Ok, but what if the dwarf son is unable? What if he is unable to 'perform' with a woman? What if he is repulsed by it? What if he feels that he shouldn't have to?

Also, you state that 'most' marriages are business and love is less common. That does not mean 'all' are business and 'none' are for love. I am proposing one storyline here, not many.
Happy to discuss these things but can we tone down the harshness a bit? 'Nonsense'? 

Modifié par Ponendus, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:17 .

[Jademoon121]

Deadmac wrote...

Time to rain on the parade... Do you know why heterosexual men like girl on girl action? Its taboo. Regardless about how meaningful the romance is applied, two girls engaged in a sexual situation is a turn on. Since homosexuality if considered taboo by society, the act is that much more tantalizing. When it comes to homosexuality between two guys, majority of both men and women find it to be gross. Once the subject becomes a mainstream issue, the world opposes the issue because 'we know it taboo'. Who do you think is playing "Dragon Age"? Some priest?

Alistair would disagree with you on the whole girl-on-girl thing 
But you are right about man-on-man stuff. It's a stupid double-standard.

[Deadmac]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Deadmac wrote...
Time to rain on the parade... Do you know why heterosexual men like girl on girl action? Its taboo. Regardless about how meaningful the romance is applied, two girls engaged in a sexual situation is a turn on. Since homosexuality if considered taboo by society, the act is that much more tantalizing. When it comes to homosexuality between two guys, majority of both men and women find it to be gross. Once the subject becomes a mainstream issue, the world opposes the issue because 'we know it taboo'. Who do you think is playing "Dragon Age"? Some priest?

Alistair would disagree with you on the whole girl-on-girl thing 
But you are right about man-on-man stuff. It's a stupid double-standard.

All those manly things smacking scares people away.

Modifié par Deadmac, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:21 .

[Abispa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Carver has an elf-fetish and he seems to only want to have sex with Merrill. It seems that he has only a physical attraction to Merrill and not an actual attraction towards who she is.

Hmm. Now THAT sounds a little possive of you, TEWR. I always thought Carver says aloud the kind of stuff people post in Merrill's support thread.

[Deadmac]

Remember... "Dragon Age" is a video game. When everything is said and done, the game characters do not have a conscious to worry about. Two animated characters romping around is not breaking the fourth wall. If BioWare were to use real people, we would be having an entirely different conversation.

'Rated M' for mature means something. "Dragon Age" got that rating beacuse it protrays things that are taboo, and that is why the majority of its players bought the game. Blood, violence, sexuality, swearing, etc...

Modifié par Deadmac, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:29 .

[TEWR]

Abispa wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Carver has an elf-fetish and he seems to only want to have sex with Merrill. It seems that he has only a physical attraction to Merrill and not an actual attraction towards who she is.

Hmm. Now THAT sounds a little possive of you, TEWR. I always thought Carver says aloud the kind of stuff people post in Merrill's support thread.

Possessive? No far from it. I don't mean to sound possessive. It's just what the banter implies regarding how he sees Merrill and other people have actually agreed with me that Carver only has a physical attraction.

Admittedly, I didn't phrase my post to accurately say that's only what it seems to be to me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:27 .

[devSin]

GodWood wrote...

I take no issue with the precense of s/s romances or flirtations. I just want them to be handled well and not feel tacked on.

The developers have limited resources with which to work.

Considering that they can't cover every single personality in a single game, what are you expecting to see? Only one romance of each?

As for outward signs of affection, I'm sure the writers will someday cover a flirtatious character (you could argue that Isabela fills this role already). But if you're saying that every character should make every effort to blantantly announce every aspect of their personality... I don't see this really ever happening.

The sexuality is enforced by their interaction with the player. You know Isabela's view on sexuality, Anders will bumble into an unwanted (how could it be otherwise?) advance if you're male and nice, Fenris is of no set sexuality (he plays only for you) unless you don't romance him (in which case he takes up with Isabela, if she's not involved with Hawke), and Merrill is too dumb to know the difference.

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So what, it's going to reflect attitudes that haven't been seen and quite possibly may never be seen? I said in my first post that even in our modern society -- which Thedas reflects per a few dev posts IIRC -- people are apprehensive about coming forward with their sexuality, for fear of bullying, ostracism, and possibly murder.

It doesn't have to reflect anything at all. Thedas is a hypothetical alternate history, where there is little to no stigma against same-sex coupling. The logical extension of such a reality is a world where homosexuality and bisexuality are much more prevalent because there is no need to conceal them. This is shown in-game.

I think you're very much overestimating the discrimination that homosexuals typically face today. There are, admittedly, still wide-spread issues regarding civil rights, and bigotry will never completely go away (racism and sexism didn't stop just because the laws changed, after all), but outside of the Middle East and the Bible Belt, society is overall far more accepting of homosexuality than it was ten or even five years ago. And as a result, we see a higher percentage of people "coming out" than there was before.

Whereas the Dalish want their Elves to procreate and the nobility in Thedas encourage marrying opposite-gendered people.

This concepts are not incompatible with homosexuality. The Dalish want their elves to procreate, but they don't force them to, and if there are any homosexual elves, they can still procreate. Just close your eyes and pretend it's someone else.

Same goes for the nobility of Thedas. Being married does not bar you from sleeping with anyone else.

The Qunari also seem to make sure that their people procreate. I doubt they look kindly on homosexuality. Granted I don't know everything about Qunari culture, but this is what I'm led to believe.

The Qun looks down on all sexuality. In DA:O Sten says that sexual relationships are not allowed, and anyone engaged in such will undergo re-education. Qunari don't even raise their own children.

At any rate, you seem to have completely missed the point I was trying to make and only focused on the Renaissance bit.

The point you were making was that you didn't accept the DA games as being representative of the medieval time period. Which is fine, because they aren't supposed to be.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:39 .

[TEWR]

I think what Godwood simply wants is for the characters to flirt with same-gendered people that aren't the PC. They don't have to say "Hey let's get busy behind the shed because I like my own gender!".

But a little flirty dialogue. Or maybe they get hit on by other people as I said earlier, to which they flirt back.

I think Anders' banter with Nathaniel is the best example of what Godwood is talking about. The dialogue there can be considered -- and often is -- an example of him flirting with the same gender.

[Plaintiff]

Ponendus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...
However, I actually think your argument has the most weight of anything I've read. In places where 'royal lines' exist in Thedas (Orzammar for example) I can see a character being quite annoyed if their only son was unable to carry on the line due to their sexuality. I actually think that would be a fascinating storyline. I suggest telling Mr Gaider immediately, I would love to roleplay that son.

But that storyline is nonsense. Sure, a homosexual dwarf may not be super-keen to impregnate a woman, but that does not make him "unable". I don't like pumpkin, but I eat it anyway.

In a world like Thedas, where most noble marriages are purely business transactions and marrying for love is less common, there's no conflict at all. Gay dwarven noble marries some woman who wants a title, knocks her up, and keeps his piece/s of hot dwarf ass on the side.

Problem solved.

Ok, but what if the dwarf son is unable? What if he is unable to 'perform' with a woman? What if he is repulsed by it? What if he feels that he shouldn't have to?

Also, you state that 'most' marriages are business and love is less common. That does not mean 'all' are business and 'none' are for love. I am proposing one storyline here, not many.
Happy to discuss these things but can we tone down the harshness a bit? 'Nonsense'? 

Alright. That makes things more complex.

But the answer still seems somewhat obvious. The wife could have her own affair/s. Gay dwarf noble needs her to get pregnant, obviously, and I doubt that she'd fess up to having an illegitimate child with someone else, particularly if her lover was of a lower caste.

Of course, that still leaves a fairly delicate situation with its own substantial risks, but no solution is going to be perfect, and you can pretty much guarantee that this exact scenario has occured before in real life.

... Maybe not with dwarves, though.

[Ponendus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Alright. That makes things more complex.

But the answer still seems somewhat obvious. The wife could have her own affair/s. Gay dwarf noble needs her to get pregnant, obviously, and I doubt that she'd fess up to having an illegitimate child with someone else, particularly if her lover was of a lower caste.

Of course, that still leaves a fairly delicate situation with its own substantial risks, but no solution is going to be perfect, and you can pretty much guarantee that this exact scenario has occured before in real life.

... Maybe not with dwarves, though.

Exactly! All of those suggestions are really good. That is the interesting storyline that will unfold out of it. I just want to roleplay this character even more now.

[devSin]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think what Godwood simply wants is for the characters to flirt with same-gendered people that aren't the PC.

Then that's just an example of having LGBTXYZ characters in the game, not about romances.

Yes, it would be neat to see gay characters in addition to straight characters, and bisexual in addition to either. No, not every romance possibility is going to chase every ding and dong that comes along, just so that you can be really truly sure that they know all the words to the song.

Romance is still optional. The characters exist independently of whether the player desires a more intimate relationship with them, and the writers will base their interactions on a preset sexuality when they feel it's appropriate. But it's one of many, many traits, and unless you're sleeping in the same bed with them, I wouldn't expect it to be the focus of any particular scene all that often.

Modifié par devSin, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:45 .

[Abispa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think what Godwood simply wants is for the characters to flirt with same-gendered people that aren't the PC. They don't have to say "Hey let's get busy behind the shed because I like my own gender!".

But a little flirty dialogue. Or maybe they get hit on by other people as I said earlier, to which they flirt back.

I think Anders' banter with Nathaniel is the best example of what Godwood is talking about. The dialogue there can be considered -- and often is -- an example of him flirting with the same gender.

I have no problem with that, it could be pretty cool, but I do not think it is needed. Nor do I think the lack of such scenes makes a character less "realistic" than the LIs in past Bioware games. I never saw Carth hitting on background female Jedis in SW:KotOR, for example, nor did I see Alistair staring at other women's behinds in DA:O. That did not ruin immersion.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...


It doesn't have to reflect anything at all. Thedas is a hypothetical alternate history, where there is little to no stigma against same-sex coupling. The logical extension of such a reality is a world where homosexuality and bisexuality are much more prevalent because there is no need to conceal them. This is shown in-game.

It does have to reflect the sexual orientation seen in our world's history if the devs have gone on record as saying Thedas reflects our world, as I seem to recall

I'm looking for dev posts to back that up, and if I find it then I'll post it.

I think you're very much overestimating the discrimination that homosexuals typically face today. There are, admittedly, still wide-spread issues regarding civil rights, and bigotry will never completely go away (racism and sexism didn't stop just because the laws changed, after all), but outside of the Middle East and the Bible Belt, society is overall far more accepting of homosexuality than it was ten or even five years ago. And as a result, we see a higher percentage of people "coming out" than there was before.

I'm not overestimating. I said "They're still apprehensive". That will always remain.

And it applies to Thedas. Even if it's more accepted then it is here, everyone won't just be okay with it. If they were, this would play right into my point of a "hive mind in terms of sexual orientation" point.

We do not think the same thoughts regarding everything. Even if homosexuality is accepted in our society more than it was in the past, families still feel ashamed of their children for being homosexual, going so far as to bar contact with them.

That the Chantry -- and in our current society the Church's recent beginning of acceptance -- doesn't frown upon it does not mean that society won't.

This concepts are not incompatible with homosexuality. The Dlaish want their elves to procreate, but they don't force them to, and if there are any homosexual elves, they can still procreate. Just close your eyes and pretend it's someone else.

Same goes for the nobility of Thedas. Being married does not bar you from sleeping with anyone else.

You're assuming that it's that easy for every homosexual in Thedas. That's a falsehood. Not everyone can so easily imagine some guy when they're having sex with a woman. Not everyone can go through with it.

The point you were making was that you didn't accept the DA games as being representative of the medieval time period. Which is fine, because they aren't supposed to be.

Again, I'm going to look for the dev post that I seem to recall talking about the games reflecting midieval times.

And another part of my point was that making everyone comfortable with the sexuality of everyone else isn't realistic, no matter how it's spinned. This doesn't happen in our society. This doesn't happen in any society.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:42 .

[TEWR]

Abispa wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think what Godwood simply wants is for the characters to flirt with same-gendered people that aren't the PC. They don't have to say "Hey let's get busy behind the shed because I like my own gender!".

But a little flirty dialogue. Or maybe they get hit on by other people as I said earlier, to which they flirt back.

I think Anders' banter with Nathaniel is the best example of what Godwood is talking about. The dialogue there can be considered -- and often is -- an example of him flirting with the same gender.

I have no problem with that, it could be pretty cool, but I do not think it is needed. Nor do I think the lack of such scenes makes a character less "realistic" than the LIs in past Bioware games. I never saw Carth hitting on background female Jedis in SW:KotOR, for example, nor did I see Alistair staring at other women's behinds in DA:O. That did not ruin immersion.

Well, Alistair can be part of a 3-way with Isabela and he flirts with Wynne in Return to Ostagar, and he also talks with Leliana about he finds there to be a certain allure to danger.