438 réponses à ce sujet

[Chun Hei]

Deadmac wrote...

Time to rain on the parade... Do you know why heterosexual men like girl on girl action? Its taboo. Regardless about how meaningful the romance is applied, two girls engaged in a sexual situation is a turn on. Since homosexuality is considered taboo by society, the act is that much more tantalizing. When it comes to homosexuality between two guys, majority of both men and women find it to be gross. Once the subject becomes a mainstream issue, the world opposes the issue because 'we know its taboo'. Who do you think is playing "Dragon Age"? Some priest?

I do not know about that. It is true that neither me nor my girlfriends scream for guys to make out with each other at bars but I do not find it gross. Love is beautiful. Sex is fun. If two consenting guys want some I think it is wonderful.

I like games with LIs and usually play the women. If there is no option to play as a woman in an RPG I refuse to buy the game anymore. But I do play as a man more in Bioware games since they are the among the few who allow me to take a male LI regardless of gender. I do not know why but female LIs make me want to facepalm myself to death.

Even if I like the female character otherwise I tend to see the blatant "fan service" of their romances geared toward "typical" boy fantasies. I realize that may be a bit hypocritical since the male LIs in Bioware games tend to have their own silly formulas. Especially the "you remind me of my dead sister/wife/lover" Carth syndrome.

Modifié par Chun Hei, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:03 .

[Abispa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, Alistair can be part of a 3-way with Isabela and he flirts with Wynne in Return to Ostagar, and he also talks with Leliana about he finds there to be a certain allure to danger.

I remember Wynne doing most of the flirting, but I missed the other stuff (he's not a staple in my DA:O parties). Needless to say, my missing those moments did not ruin his believability for me.

[Ryzaki]

Chun Hei wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

Time to rain on the parade... Do you know why heterosexual men like girl on girl action? Its taboo. Regardless about how meaningful the romance is applied, two girls engaged in a sexual situation is a turn on. Since homosexuality is considered taboo by society, the act is that much more tantalizing. When it comes to homosexuality between two guys, majority of both men and women find it to be gross. Once the subject becomes a mainstream issue, the world opposes the issue because 'we know its taboo'. Who do you think is playing "Dragon Age"? Some priest?

I do not know about that. It is true that neither me nor my girlfriends scream for guys to make out with each other at bars but I do not find it gross. Love is beautiful. Sex is fun. If two consenting guys want some I think it is wonderful.
I like games with LIs and usually play the women. If there is no option to play as a woman in an RPG I refuse to buy the game anymore. But I do play as a man more in Bioware games since they are the among the few who allow me to take a male LI regardless of gender. I do not know why but female LIs make me want to facepalm myself to death.

Even if I like the female character otherwise I tend to see the blatant "fan service" of their romances geared toward "typical" boy fantasies. I realize that may be a bit hypocritical since the male LIs in Bioware games tend to have their own silly formulas. Especially the "you remind me of my dead sister/wife/lover" Carth syndrome.

Two words. Yaoi. Fans. (granted that is a minority but it's a lot more females than some would expect).

As for gross...eh I know a bunch of yaoi fangirls so I'm not a good judge.

And also yeah I tend to play males and take male LIs. I like men. Romancing a female even as a male avatar usually weirds me out.

I only play females when the protag is silent.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:05 .

[Mr.House]

Circle arguments!

[Sylvius the Mad]

I would like to remind everyone that there's no reason for the characters to be bisexual within the game just because they'll accept romantic overtures from PCs of both genders.

It's a perfectly reasonable explanation that a male NPC is gay when you play a male PC, but straight when you play a female PC. Just as the fate of Bethany or Carver is determined by a meta-game event (character creation), so can the sexuality of any given NPC.

As such, having NPCs romanceable by PCs of any gender doesn't necessarily create any credibility problem.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:05 .

[TEWR]

Abispa wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, Alistair can be part of a 3-way with Isabela and he flirts with Wynne in Return to Ostagar, and he also talks with Leliana about he finds there to be a certain allure to danger.

I remember Wynne doing most of the flirting, but I missed the other stuff (he's not a staple in my DA:O parties). Needless to say, my missing those moments did not ruin his believability for me.

I think that could be due more to the timeline of the game and the nature of the story. DAO didn't really have much opportunity for Alistair to go talking with women in bars because there was a priority -- the Blight. Additionally, there's only a year in the game, most of which is spent with the party.

But in DAII, the party is in Kirkwall for about 7 or so years where they do happen to get around a lot and go to bars, so you would think that they would flirt with people during those 7 years.

[Chun Hei]

I would love a scene of Merrill and Isabela in the bar and Merrill is so happy and excited that Serendipity gave her a discount.

[Ponendus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I would like to remind everyone that there's no reason for the characters to be bisexual within the game just because they'll accept romantic overtures from PCs of both genders.

It's a perfectly reasonable explanation that a male NPC is gay when you play a male PC, but straight when you play a female PC. Just as the fate of Bethany or Carver is determined by a meta-game event (character creation), so can the sexuality of any given NPC.

As such, having NPCs romanceable by PCs of any gender doesn't necessarily create any credibility problem.

Absolutely. The more options available, the more customizable the PC. 

[Deviija]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I would like to remind everyone that there's no reason for the characters to be bisexual within the game just because they'll accept romantic overtures from PCs of both genders.

It's a perfectly reasonable explanation that a male NPC is gay when you play a male PC, but straight when you play a female PC. Just as the fate of Bethany or Carver is determined by a meta-game event (character creation), so can the sexuality of any given NPC.

As such, having NPCs romanceable by PCs of any gender doesn't necessarily create any credibility problem.

Exactly so.  I came to post the very same thing.  Cheers.

[GhostlyMaiden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think that could be due more to the timeline of the game and the nature of the story. DAO didn't really have much opportunity for Alistair to go talking with women in bars because there was a priority -- the Blight. Additionally, there's only a year in the game, most of which is spent with the party.

But in DAII, the party is in Kirkwall for about 7 or so years where they do happen to get around a lot and go to bars, so you would think that they would flirt with people during those 7 years.

Aveline is married to her job and if you help her during Long Road, she marries Donnic as well. Anders grows increasingly obsessed with his mage revolution. Merril grows increasingly obsessed with her mirror. Varric has Bianca. Fenris has trust issues (as well as a lack of social skills) and wouldn't go around flirting with random people outside the circle of Hawke's group. Sebastian has his vows though he does flirt with Bethany in a most gentlemanly way.

Yeah, these guys have bigger concerns than the state of their love life. Hawke gets an "advantage" in that sense, since s/he can get personally involved with these issues whether it's by being supportive or not supportive of them in these situations as opposed to some random stranger getting moony-eyed over that cute elf who follows the Champion.

[Deadmac]

Chun Hei wrote...
Love is beautiful. Sex is fun.

When it comes to sex being portrayed in games, there is no love involved within the act. As I said in my previous post, we are talking about a souless digital character. Since the game is also rated 'M' for mature, not mentally mature, the core of its content will consist of things that are rated 'R'. Sex, violence, murder, swearing, drinking, sexuality, etc... Regardless about the overall political garbage it ignites in the forums, the nature of the game is to deliver a sense of controversy. Breaking the moral and ethical code is the goal. Why? It sells. Homosexuality is one of those controversies. Even though BioWare will publicly say otherwise, their main goal is to 'break the rules of society'. If they can attach "Dragon Age" to something you think is taboo, the controversy it ignites will encourage more sales.

Haven't you been paying attention? "When someone hits a button, something awesome has to happen. Button... Awesome..." Who cares if its right or wrong? If BioWare was interested in forcing people into playing morally sound characters, the options to randomly murder, steal, and extort someone for fun would not exists.

After all... Isabela was used as eye candy for the male masses. Even though she had something interesting to say, my eyes just could not stop from dropping to her but and chest. Curves rock! Playboy is calling Isabela!

Modifié par Deadmac, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:57 .

[Sylvianus]

Ponendus wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I would like to remind everyone that there's no reason for the characters to be bisexual within the game just because they'll accept romantic overtures from PCs of both genders.

It's a perfectly reasonable explanation that a male NPC is gay when you play a male PC, but straight when you play a female PC. Just as the fate of Bethany or Carver is determined by a meta-game event (character creation), so can the sexuality of any given NPC.

As such, having NPCs romanceable by PCs of any gender doesn't necessarily create any credibility problem.

Absolutely. The more options available, the more customizable the PC. 

 this thought seems totally lame. this is not how I see the writing. It's like saying we can choose to decide how the characters feel. Because they are customizable according to my desires. Identity is something elusive, like joy or sadness or the good weather. We can never decide what are their tastes, their attractions, which identifies them, what motivates them, etc..


Even in a game, or maybe yes, but it will never be what I consider a good move.

[Sylvianus]

AlexXIV wrote...

I am not against bisexual or homosexual characters in a game. Making everyone bisexual though is the wrong move imo. Even though it is probably becoming the norm for Bioware games since it is simply more efficient.

I have no respect for what has been done, I'm not impressed at all. And I consider it a bad move too. But this.

I won't complain if is there, because it is important for some people for some considerations.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:52 .

[jlb524]

GodWood wrote...
There doesn't need to be an 'explanation' for their ******/hetero/bisexuality. It's not like people must experience some life changing event to determine their sexuality.

What they need to do is work their sexuality into their character and have it influence their backstory.
e.g) Past relationships, interactions with other people etc.

Well, one thing that irks me a bit is that the 'open gender' LIs do typically show more of their 'opposite sex loving side' then the 'same sex loving side' in regards to non-PC flirting/romance.  This was an issue in DA:O as well (or even in other BW games with s/s romance content) so it's just not a 'DA2 all bi thing'.   Even someone like Isabela falls in that category for me (she seemed way more 'boy crazy' and any mention of sexuality involving another woman felt few and far between..plus I think you need to have Bethany around to hear most of the banter relating to it).

I'm not sure that limiting the s/s romance options will fix that issue and if it would, I don't think I'd want to trade more options for a fix anyway because what irks me even more is not being able to romance the available LI of my choosing.  I'm playing SW:TOR now and there are absolutely no s/s romance options and I'd definitely take one that refers to opposite-sex stuff more than none at all.  It's not 'ideal' of course but it's a step forward.

Off topic:  I also thought for a moment that TEWR would turn this thread into another argument over Merrill 

Modifié par jlb524, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:57 .

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

Off topic:  I also thought for a moment that TEWR would turn this thread into another argument over Merrill 

I was tempted to, but I resisted.

just joking. I've actually grown tired of the "Merrill and the Eluvian" debates.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:17 .

[Ponendus]

Sylvianus wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Absolutely. The more options available, the more customizable the PC. 

It's like saying we can choose to decide how the characters feel. Because they are customizable according to my desires. Identity is something elusive, like joy or sadness or the good weather. We can never decide what are their tastes, their attractions, which identifies them, what motivates them, etc..

Are you referring to the player character or other characters? If you are referring to the PC why can't you customise them according to your desires? Why can't you decide their tastes, their attractions and what motivates them? That is what roleplaying is all about.

If you are referring to the non-player characters, I am not saying they should be quite as customisable per se (in other words I don't think you should 'choose' their sexuality or anything else). I do however think they should be reactive to as many different decisions as possible. We are talking about romance here in this thread, so I shall continue reference to that. Consider this: if the non-player character (let's call him 'Bob') is strictly heterosexual, and I choose to play a male character, I have zero chance of pursuing a romance with him. Now, that may be alright for me, because I find some value in roleplaying characters that experience 'unrequited love'. However, if Bob is romanceable for my male PC I now have a choice to roleplay a romance, or that I am not attracted to Bob, or even that Bob is not attracted to me and my love is 'unrequited' by not choosing the right options. The second scenario gives me options for roleplay, the first limits them.

[Kmead15]

Sylvianus wrote...

 this thought seems totally lame. this is not how I see the writing. It's like saying we can choose to decide how the characters feel. Because they are customizable according to my desires. Identity is something elusive, like joy or sadness or the good weather. We can never decide what are their tastes, their attractions, which identifies them, what motivates them, etc..


Even in a game, or maybe yes, but it will never be what I consider a good move.

Seconding this. I would rather have all LIs be outright bisexual then claim that their sexualities change with every playthrough. That would create the credibility problem (which did honestly throw me off for a moment, but not so much that I couldn't deal with it) and would fail to represent either homosexuals or heterosexuals, but at least the game would do more to maintain the illusion of being solid and consistant.

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

just joking. I've actually grown tired of the "Merrill and the Eluvian" debates.

Well, this one was Merrill/Carver so a bit different 

[Sylvianus]

Ponendus wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Absolutely. The more options available, the more customizable the PC. 

It's like saying we can choose to decide how the characters feel. Because they are customizable according to my desires. Identity is something elusive, like joy or sadness or the good weather. We can never decide what are their tastes, their attractions, which identifies them, what motivates them, etc..

Are you referring to the player character or other characters? If you are referring to the PC why can't you customise them according to your desires? Why can't you decide their tastes, their attractions and what motivates them? That is what roleplaying is all about.

If you are referring to the non-player characters, I am not saying they should be quite as customisable per se (in other words I don't think you should 'choose' their sexuality or anything else). I do however think they should be reactive to as many different decisions as possible. We are talking about romance here in this thread, so I shall continue reference to that. Consider this: if the non-player character (let's call him 'Bob') is strictly heterosexual, and I choose to play a male character, I have zero chance of pursuing a romance with him. Now, that may be alright for me, because I find some value in roleplaying characters that experience 'unrequited love'. However, if Bob is romanceable for my male PC I now have a choice to roleplay a romance, or that I am not attracted to Bob, or even that Bob is not attracted to me and my love is 'unrequited' by not choosing the right options. The second scenario gives me options for roleplay, the first limits them.

I meant npc sorry, I should have told this. The Sylvius's thought. He talked about them as if they were only npc without life, that we control, what is exactly what Bioware should avoid for the writting and what absolutely we don't need to think. Otherwise the focus on characters is pretty useless.

Do we decide what one loves or not ? Isabella, Aveline, what motivates them, what identificates them ? Even though it's a RPG ? No, because this is an area that belongs to the idendity, writing.

In books, in movies, you do not decide who likes what, who is attracted by what, it is, and that's it. The same thought for video games, which pay attention to story. Since it still basically belongs to the writing.

The customization has nothing to do with it. The only thing you can roleplay is your character. Control areas can be extended everywhere except for the mentality of the characters, that's the red line. This field is elusive, this field is the only one that we cannot control. The roleplay won't change anything.

You can only convince them, you can never decide for them what they like or hate, you can not order them to change their identity because that's what they are and we have to deal with it, like in real life.

Like I said,  I can understand why it has to be done, and it's okay now. BUT it is definitely wrong to think that because in a rpg I can control everything, I can also control their minds, that is not the same thing. That's not good writing, that's simply not good to be honest. I just wanted to jump on that, now I leave it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:36 .

[Dave of Canada]

Sexuality should impact the character's relationship with the protagonist and those around them, it should present different scenarios and the like. For example, Morrigan's romance allowed the male Warden to become the father for the God Baby and Alistair's romance allowed the female Warden to be queen.

You didn't need to, though the options were presented and were slightly more ingrained into the world than say... Leliana and Zevran, who have little to no interaction with the world, where gender changes a line or two.

Should we continue down the path for all bisexual romances, something which differs male and female protagonists could be integrated and still add another layer to the romance. For example, you (a woman) romance a noblewoman and it results in her being shunned by her family for not being capable of bearing an heir (imagine she's old fashioned and won't take a consort or something).

It's a unique scenario present to one side of the relationship, the male players wouldn't have to deal with it and they'd get another scenario which the relationship goes through. Relationships and sexuality aren't as simple as something which everybody ignores, as it does present differences which straight relationships might not go through. Vice versa.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:38 .

[Ponendus]

Sylvianus wrote...

Do we decide what one loves or not ? Isabella, Aveline, what motivates them, what identificates them ? Even though it's a RPG ? No, because this is an area that belongs to the idendity, writing.

In books, in movies, you do not decide who likes what, who is attracted by what, it is, and that's it. The same thought for video games, which pay attention to story. Since it still basically belongs to the writing.

I understand your thinking but I don't think it's a correct comparison. Video games are by nature interactive. We don't have ownership over the identity of the non-player characters, but I expect the writing to be reactive to my interactions with them. Good video game writing takes into account as many interactions as possible, the less there are, the more like a book or film it is, and that is not desirable to me.

[Sylvianus]

Ponendus wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Do we decide what one loves or not ? Isabella, Aveline, what motivates them, what identificates them ? Even though it's a RPG ? No, because this is an area that belongs to the idendity, writing.

In books, in movies, you do not decide who likes what, who is attracted by what, it is, and that's it. The same thought for video games, which pay attention to story. Since it still basically belongs to the writing.

I understand your thinking but I don't think it's a correct comparison. Video games are by nature interactive. We don't have ownership over the identity of the non-player characters, but I expect the writing to be reactive to my interactions with them. Good video game writing takes into account as many interactions as possible, the less there are, the more like a book or film it is, and that is not desirable to me.

 Yet the policy of bioware is to strive for greater independence of the characters, with their own thoughts, their own stories. They can even judge your action,  you the pc, they can approve and disapprove us, they can fight you. Being interactive, does not mean to control their thoughts, to choose to identify them according to your tastes.

Being interactive, means interacting with someone, communicate,. to establish a link,. ( to convince, to charm, etc etc ) But I see where you are going.

What I see, is that  as any format they wish to keep an integrity protected for their characters. We cannot do everything we want with them. If you aren't enough friendly with Merril, or Fenris, and you choose the wrong side at the end, they will fight you. Wut ? you are saying me, lol.  That's MY team, and I can't have them in my party ? what the hell, I am forced to fight them ?

Yet, you are in a video game being interactive. What do we see in this example ? You can't force them to follow all your desires, because they are what they are, they have their thoughts, and the only solution to have them with you, is to convince them. Did you feel that the game wasn't interactive despite their integrity protected by the writing ? Didn't you feel on the opposite, that is was really good to see, that npcs aren't just following the PC ?

You can not force Isabella to join the Qunari camps . She will always want to leave. However, I want it to be with me all the time, but the game refuses me this right. Yet I control this game, I want to roleplay like I want, and I want everything like I want. But no, I need to deal with the universe according to the writing. Because there is a story behind.

I talked about that in general, it isn't specific to this subject, just to show you better what is my thinking.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 janvier 2012 - 06:07 .

[Ponendus]

Sylvianus wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Do we decide what one loves or not ? Isabella, Aveline, what motivates them, what identificates them ? Even though it's a RPG ? No, because this is an area that belongs to the idendity, writing.

In books, in movies, you do not decide who likes what, who is attracted by what, it is, and that's it. The same thought for video games, which pay attention to story. Since it still basically belongs to the writing.

I understand your thinking but I don't think it's a correct comparison. Video games are by nature interactive. We don't have ownership over the identity of the non-player characters, but I expect the writing to be reactive to my interactions with them. Good video game writing takes into account as many interactions as possible, the less there are, the more like a book or film it is, and that is not desirable to me.

 Yet the policy of bioware is to strive for greater independence of the characters, with their own thoughts, their own stories. They can even judge your action,  you the pc, they can approve and disapprove us, they can fight you. Being interactive, does not mean to control their thoughts, to choose to identify them according to your tastes.

That is precisely what I said. It is not that I want to make choices or customise the non-player characters, I want them to react to all the possibilities I bring with my player character.

[Sylvianus]

In this case, I can agree. If any reaction, even negative before your demands can satisfy you, then, there is no problem. That would be like Tallis, when we ask her to give us the letter, and she doesn't want for example. But according to what they are, the writing, you can not have everything you want,  because they are independent. Are you agree with that ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 janvier 2012 - 06:12 .