438 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

Out of all fairness, it's time that all companions in all Bioware games be exclusively eunuchs, vestal virgins, nuns, monks or members of completely asexual species. At the very least, they should all wear loose fitting armour and use voice filters. That way this whole discussion never need arise again.

[Cartims]

Or, we can have armour built for two, so you never have to see your love interest, it's like a closed door, don't look, mind your own business.

[LinksOcarina]

Its funny...but considering the whole "everyones bisexual" thing is inaccurate because only two out of the five romances actually attempts initiation with you regardless of gender. The other 3 (Sebastian, who is female only, Fenris, and Merrill) you as the player need to initiate the romance with the right dialogue choice, both elves never showcase any sexuality or sexual desire whatsoever to you.

So really, not all of them are bisexual, in the end its the player characters percepton of sexuality that is more important over the characters sexuality, which is ironic considering this is a more character-driven game.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:46 .

[Nejeli]

Valaun wrote...

The way same-sex relationships are viewed appears to vary from country to country.
Sticking to your example with Zevran - when he first makes a move on your male warden, you can point out that hitting on you is weird cause you´re also a guy. He starts laughing and thinks you´re joking because this seems to be a non-issue in Antiva.

There are also some references that indicate it´s pretty normal among orlaisian nobility.
But even though it appears to be rather uncommon in Ferelden, there are a few examples of same-sex couples without anyone batting an eyelid, like the affair in the human noble origin.
And of course Wade and Herren.
Always Wade and Herren...

Also Branka and Hespith. No one acted particularly scandalized over it, so I don't think the dwarves have much of an issue with it either.

And as for Zevran, I tend to view his comments as him giving the Warden as many outs as he can, because he doesn't expect things to last but can't bring himself to end the relationship himself. Them both being men is just one reason out of many that might cause the Warden to break it off. 'You know I'm an assassin, right? And that I've slept with many, many, many people? And that I'm a ****'s son? And, yes, we are both men! Does this bother you? And, wow, you and Morrigan have gotten close. We've had fun, but you should pick her, and then everyone will be happy, even me, despite the fact that I'm standing here looking like you just kicked my puppy.' (Actually, if them both being men is still an issue for the Warden during their second earring talk, then Zevran is the one that ends things, and he does it immediately after the line. The implication that I got was that he didn't think the Warden took  their relationship as seriously, or consider it as permanent, as he might one with a woman and he wasn't going to risk it. I don't think this suggests as much about society as it does about the Warden, though, since I don't remember Zevran ever bringing up societial pressure or the Warden having any lines suggesting that he was hesitant because ~it just wasn't done!~)

[jlb524]

AlexXIV wrote...
Bleh I never said sexuality is imporant for the main storyline. I said it is important for the integrity of the characters. Sure, you can reach the end of game without persueing LIs etc. I never doubted that. I am saying they screw up characters when they make 'everyone bi'. It's immersion breaking in a world you are supposed to be immersed. No they don't have to come forward and throw their sexuality at you. Hell I wouldn't feel disturbed if there were no LIs and you were left to guessing. But making everyone bi is BS, plain and simple. If only for the fact that detail seems not to be a concern for the writers. They just try to make everyone happy. Which is just as bad as leaving the writing to fans altogether.

If they didn't tend to do the same with every romance then maybe you'd have a point.

BW romances are nothing but fan service.

I was just thinking about the SW:TOR romances and the fact that every freaking female companion in that game is not only hawt but a romance option...and it's nothing but heterosexual romances.  Fan service you say?  No way!

It's even funnier when you realize that most companions are 1) male and 2) not an LI.

Modifié par jlb524, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:05 .

[Wulfram]

I think the default attitude to homosexuality in Thedas is that it's OK, but you're still expected to marry and have kids.

Nejeli wrote...

Also Branka and Hespith. No one acted particularly scandalized over it, so I don't think the dwarves have much of an issue

As a Paragon, everything Branka does is by definition appropriate behaviour.  Though I suspect actions the Shaperate and the Assembly disapprove of tend to end up being ignored

[Nejeli]

AlexXIV wrote...

Bleh I never said sexuality is imporant for the main storyline. I said it is important for the integrity of the characters. Sure, you can reach the end of game without persueing LIs etc. I never doubted that. I am saying they screw up characters when they make 'everyone bi'. It's immersion breaking in a world you are supposed to be immersed. No they don't have to come forward and throw their sexuality at you. Hell I wouldn't feel disturbed if there were no LIs and you were left to guessing. But making everyone bi is BS, plain and simple. If only for the fact that detail seems not to be a concern for the writers. They just try to make everyone happy. Which is just as bad as leaving the writing to fans altogether.

But not everyone is bi. Anders and Isabela are, but Fenris and Merrill both have reasons for why they might be attracted to Hawke him/herself, and they're only bisexual if you can't ignore the metagaming stuff. Everyone's sexuality, as portrayed in the game, fits with their character. Isabela is a free spirt, everyone she likes is an option, including Hawke. Anders learned to take his fun when and where and with whoever he could because he never knew when it would be his last time, everyone he likes is an option (or was, before Justice) including Hawke. And I've already given reasons for why Hawke might be of particular interest to Fenris and Merrill, beyond anyone else.

Wulfram wrote...

As a Paragon, everything Branka does is
by definition appropriate behaviour.  Though I suspect actions the
Shaperate and the Assembly disapprove of tend to end up being ignored

But even Oghren didn't make an issue of it. It wasn't 'she left me for a woman *shock!*' it was 'She left me, mmmm Branka and Hespith.' I don't know, it just didn't seem to be a big deal in the game.

[Ryzaki]

Hell I think Oghren's only reaction to MWarden and Zevran is a bit of a "Eh." He's a bit squicked but he's not all like "OMG! EWWWWW!" 

Though there's this XD

• Oghren: So... Antiva. Wonderful place. Full of... Antivans...
• Zevran: Oghren. If you want to bed me, you have only to ask.
• Oghren: What!? Draw your sword and say that again!
• Zevran: (Laughs) I jest, my foul-smelling friend. You are only slightly more attractive to me than a slime-filled pool of swamp water.
• Oghren: (Grunts) Better be.
• Zevran: You have my oath.
• Oghren: Bloody Antivans.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:45 .

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

I was just thinking about the SW:TOR romances and the fact that every freaking female companion in that game is not only hawt but a romance option...and it's nothing but heterosexual romances.  Fan service you say?  No way!

It's even funnier when you realize that most companions are 1) male and 2) not an LI.

Don't forget about how there are, generally speaking, far more hawt (and generally human, I've noticed) females for male characters to romance than their are males for female characters, and what is available tends to occupy a space somewhere between 'unusual' to 'utterly bonkers bizzare'. Not that I don't like grumpy Cathar or men with no minds of their own, but what. Watching story videos of the Sith Inquisitor is making me howl and gnash my teeth in frustration. Practically every planet so far has had a smoking hot girl to boink. Frown.

Anyway.

I personally wouldn't assume that bisexuality would be the norm in Thedas. I would assume that, at least as far as formal relationships are concerned, heterosexuality is more commonplace. And I'm aware that Zevran and Leliana bring up their sexuality in conversation with the Warden, though from what I can remember Leliana brings up up whilst awkwardly flirting with her, if the Warden is female. Haven't romanced Zevran, so I can't really speak to that.

However, this doesn't proclude either a) nobody really caring about what other people's sexual orientation is, or there being more than two (or whatever arbitrary figure is deemed acceptable) bisexuals in a given city. Not that I'd advocate even considering half the DA2 romance interests as such, but eh.

See, here's the thing. At least as far as Leliana is concerned, she brings it up whilst hitting on the Warden. She, effectively, is making the first move, and checking to see if the Warden's interested at the same time. That might suggest that not everybody is bisexual, sure, but that's about the extent of the conclusions that can be drawn from such. Leliana checking to see if a same gendered Warden is ok with s/s doesn't suggest to me that her sexuality is a big issue to her. It suggests to me that she'd lead a tragic life with more than her share of heartbreak and before she's going to lets her affection go any further, she's damn well wanting to make sure she's not just setting herselfup for rejection. Leliana and Zevran aren't the only bi/homosexual characters in DA:O, they're just the only ones that actually bring it up themselves and their reasons for doing so, to me, don't seem connected to how commonplace or accepted bi/homosexuality is.

With the exception of, well, Isabela and Anders. neither of whom I'd consider to be out of character when they do, the DA2 romances will effectively wait until Hawke flirts with them before really returning in kind. There's no need for Merrill to explain to a female Hawke that she's ok with the idea of hooking up with a woman or making sure femHawke is too, because by the time anything between them goes anywhere, that part is already apparent.

See also: What Nejeli said.

Modifié par bleetman, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:58 .

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...
Don't forget about how there are, generally speaking, far more hawt (and generally human, I've noticed) females for male characters to romance than their are males for female characters, and what is available tends to occupy a space somewhere between 'unusual' to 'utterly bonkers bizzare'. Not that I don't like grumpy Cathar or men with no minds of their own, but what. Watching story videos of the Sith Inquisitor is making me howl and gnash my teeth in frustration. Practically every planet so far has had a smoking hot girl to boink. Frown.

Ah yes.  Most classes have only one female companion out of five who's a total hot romanceable babe, ofc.  There are a few classes that have two female companions out of five (both romanceable, ofc) and seem to come in human/alien pairs (if you don't like the 'weird' looking alien chick who really looks like a human anyway, we have a real human chick for you!).  It's actually kind of funny...it's like, females can't be in the epic space opera unless they are bangable by the male hero.  Whereas, the male companions come in all shapes/sizes/ages/weirdness with only one romanceable per class I think.

I haven't seen any 'fanservice' complaints though 

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, to be fair... if you can't find at least ONE smokin' hawt chick on an entire planet, then that planet isn't really that great. Just saying.

[bleetman]

It's not like your character scours the population looking for sexy wimminz. You only deal with a handful of people per planet. And really, that's sort of besides the point.

Modifié par bleetman, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:33 .

[Imrahil_]

This is another issue of making choices have no consequences. People complained that their Origin or Race wasn't important enough in DA:O, & now we actually have people saying Bioware should cut more corners & make Gender not matter either.

Blood Mage? Sure, no content lost. Race affecting dialogues? Forget that, just humans. Gender affecting romances? Nah, everyone's bi. Lawful Good/Chaotic Evil/Neutral Good/Chaotic Neutral/etc.? As Bender from Futurama would put it: You want us to do four things?!?

Nothing about our character seems to matter anymore (Skyrim's awful about this, too). Maker forbid our choices have consequences.

[Wulfram]

I'm quite happy with bi romances - at least until we get more than 4 romances total - but being a Blood Mage should have had effects (like Merrill Approves +loads). As should being a total jerk.

[Abispa]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm quite happy with bi romances - at least until we get more than 4 romances total - but being a Blood Mage should have had effects (like Merrill Approves +loads). As should being a total jerk.

I pretty much agree here. It just bothers me that will all the other "fan service" features of past LIs, like DA:O's gifts or having every female LI automatically assume the postion for the male hero to the point where they have to be beaten off with a stick, that it is the "bi" or "hero-sexual" that is the immersion breaker. Whatever.

I wouldn't mind LIs being well-written, numerous, varied, and gender specific, but I would RATHER have had DA2 had more quality level designs and better gameplay. I would like party interaction to be meaningful EVEN IF you NEVER do a single romance. ME2 showed that when you have LOTS of gender-specific LIs it usually wind up with shortened character interaction unless you are romancing someone ("callibrations," anyone?).

The DA2 methond of having four of the five LIs being Hawke-sexual allows you to write eight romances for four characters, allowing the player to choose the LIs based on the character themselves. AND it is possible to have a meaningful friendship/rivalry with them if you aren't romancing them.

And Hawke GETS TURNED DOWN! With the Warden, if s/he can flirt with it, s/he can bang it. Hawke can flirt with just about anyone, and there are characters who turn him/her down, ignore him/her, or are oblivious to Hawke's advances. Yet s/s critics will focus on the four (OMG! FOUR!?) bisexual LIs and say THAT is nowhere near as realistic or quality of DA:O.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

I don't have a massive problem with it, next to everything else in the game. Basically, it's just the romance subplot version of recycled dungeon levels. It would be nice if a Bioware game had a gay or lesbian character, though.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sylvianus wrote...

 this thought seems totally lame. this is not how I see the writing. It's like saying we can choose to decide how the characters feel.

But we don't get to decide how the characters feel.  The game mechanics decide that.

We can, if we'd like, metagame to affect that outcome, but the fact would remain that for each PC the sexuality of any given NPC would be fixed.

Because they are customizable according to my desires. Identity is something elusive, like joy or sadness or the good weather. We can never decide what are their tastes, their attractions, which identifies them, what motivates them, etc..

And that would still be true within each PC's reality.  UYou seem to be complaining that this would produce NPCs that were inconsistent across playthroughs, and it certainly would, but how is that a problem?  Isn't it already the case that an NPC can learn different skills and employ different tactics across playthroughs?  Why should sexuality be any different?

[bleetman]

Man, how'd I miss that.

Sylvianus wrote...

 this thought seems totally lame. this is not how I see the writing. It's like saying we can choose to decide how the characters feel. Because they are customizable according to my desires. Identity is something elusive, like joy or sadness or the good weather. We can never decide what are their tastes, their attractions, which identifies them, what motivates them, etc.

Right. Unless, apparently, we happen to not like their tastes, attractions, identity or motivations. Then it's totally ok to argue that they ought to change to accomodate player desires. But it's ok! Because, uh, you know.

Irony. So much irony.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 janvier 2012 - 12:07 .

[Chun Hei]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I don't have a massive problem with it, next to everything else in the game. Basically, it's just the romance subplot version of recycled dungeon levels. It would be nice if a Bioware game had a gay or lesbian character, though.

But then you run into the problem that just one or two characters per persuasion does not allow players to do something RPG players enjoy. Customization. As Abispa loves to say (over and over and over and over again) on the s/s ME3 thread the LIs are basically another way we customize our heroes. My Hawke likes insane abominations. My Hawke digs mousy blood mages who are in constant danger of becoming abominations. My Hawke spends lots of money on Serendipity.

VA is apparenlty one of the more expensive aspects of the game so the cost of expanding the cast to allow multiple choices and giving them all meaningful storylines and dialogue is much greater than providing more terrain to explores and monsters to kill. At least that is the way Bioware and Bethesda describe it. It probably would not be so expensive if games were more like BG2 but I doubt we will see those games again from AAA companies.

If you keep the s/s LIs to just two token character you then put the writers in a position that they must appeal to s/s fans with different tastes. That is impossible so they have to go for the most popular choice. That means lots of "naughty" female rogues like Isabela and Leliana. Rogues are nimble and athletic and inventive and not be restricted to too much clothing. If you are a lesbian or s/s fan who likes something different it would be "too bad" because Bioware also has to cater to the fanboys who want their HAWT lesbian action. Get the most return on the money they spent on VA.

[Sylvianus]

but the fact would remain that for each PC the sexuality of any given NPC would be fixed.

How could it be fixed, since people do not know what the person's sexuality?

Some think he is bi, some think he's straight, some think he is gay, accordind to what they want. Writing is not taken into account, it is only a choice of customization void of interest. The character is no longer identifiable by who he is, by what he is attracted. You the player, decides. Hence this word, hawksexual.

Isn't it already the case that an NPC can learn different skills and employ different tactics across playthroughs?  Why should sexuality be any different? 

But that is only about mechanics. That has nothing to do with writing. Everything that is the area of identity, you can't touch it, and sexuality is a part of this identity. You seem to confuse the two areas. Why I can't force Isabela to follow me in the Qunari camps ? She is in my party, why I can't bring her ? That is a part of writting here, and not mechanics.

It seems we have different considerations. Here, what I posted before to explain more.

Otherwise the focus on characters is pretty useless.

Do we decide what one loves or not ? Isabella, Aveline, what motivates them, what identificates them ? Even though it's a RPG ? No, because this is an area that belongs to the idendity, writing.

In books, in movies, you do not decide who likes what, who is attracted by what, it is, and that's it. The same thought for video games, which pay attention to story. Since it still basically belongs to the writing.

The customization has nothing to do with it. The only thing you can roleplay is your character. Control areas can be extended everywhere except for the mentality of the characters, that's the red line. This field is elusive, this field is the only one that we cannot control. The roleplay won't change anything.

You can only convince them, you can never decide for them what they like or hate, you can not order them to change their identity because that's what they are and we have to deal with it, like in real life. 

Yet the policy of bioware is to strive for greater independence of the characters, with their own thoughts, their own stories. They can even judge your action,  you the pc, they can approve and disapprove us, they can fight you. Being interactive, does not mean to control their thoughts, to choose to identify them according to your tastes.

Being interactive, means interacting with someone, communicate,. to establish a link,. ( to convince, to charm, etc etc ) But I see where you are going.

What I see, is that  as any format they wish to keep an integrity protected for their characters. We cannot do everything we want with them. If you aren't enough friendly with Merril, or Fenris, and you choose the wrong side at the end, they will fight you. Wut ? you are saying me, lol.  That's MY team, and I can't have them in my party ? what the hell, I am forced to fight them ?

Yet, you are in a video game being interactive. What do we see in this example ? You can't force them to follow all your desires, because they are what they are, they have their thoughts, and the only solution to have them with you, is to convince them. Did you feel that the game wasn't interactive despite their integrity protected by the writing ? Didn't you feel on the opposite, that is was really good to see, that npcs aren't just following the PC ?

You can not force Isabella to join the Qunari camps . She will always want to leave. However, I want it to be with me all the time, but the game refuses me this right. Yet I control this game, I want to roleplay like I want, and I want everything like I want. But no, I need to deal with the universe according to the writing. Because there is a story behind.

If you can't understand that, so, let us just agree to disagree.

I don't think that anyone can convince me, that this game is only about mechanics.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 janvier 2012 - 12:12 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Chun Hei wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

I don't have a massive problem with it, next to everything else in the game. Basically, it's just the romance subplot version of recycled dungeon levels. It would be nice if a Bioware game had a gay or lesbian character, though.

But then you run into the problem that just one or two characters per persuasion does not allow players to do something RPG players enjoy. Customization. As Abispa loves to say (over and over and over and over again) on the s/s ME3 thread the LIs are basically another way we customize our heroes. My Hawke likes insane abominations. My Hawke digs mousy blood mages who are in constant danger of becoming abominations. My Hawke spends lots of money on Serendipity.

VA is apparenlty one of the more expensive aspects of the game so the cost of expanding the cast to allow multiple choices and giving them all meaningful storylines and dialogue is much greater than providing more terrain to explores and monsters to kill. At least that is the way Bioware and Bethesda describe it. It probably would not be so expensive if games were more like BG2 but I doubt we will see those games again from AAA companies.

If you keep the s/s LIs to just two token character you then put the writers in a position that they must appeal to s/s fans with different tastes. That is impossible so they have to go for the most popular choice. That means lots of "naughty" female rogues like Isabela and Leliana. Rogues are nimble and athletic and inventive and not be restricted to too much clothing. If you are a lesbian or s/s fan who likes something different it would be "too bad" because Bioware also has to cater to the fanboys who want their HAWT lesbian action. Get the most return on the money they spent on VA.

Interestingly enough, my main issue with the way Bioware does relationships is *exactly* that it tends to treat love interests as accessories instead of as characters. Tends to lead to weak storytelling, of which Schrödinger sexuality is a symptom.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sylvianus wrote...

Do we decide what one loves or not ? Isabella, Aveline, what motivates them, what identificates them ?

I think we should.  If they're our party members, we should get to decide those things, yes.

In a single character RPG, sure, the NPCs should be beyond our ability to control, but even then there's no reason why the specific details of each character could not change from one playthrough to the next.  You might find straight Fenris a less compelling character than gay Fenris, but that doesn't mean that only one can exist.

You can only convince them, you can never decide for them what they like or hate, you can not order them to change their identity because that's what they are and we have to deal with it, like in real life. 

You're missing the point.  We can accept this as true (I don't, but we could) while still allowing a character's sexuality to be determined by metagame events.

Within the game, your character would have no control over the NPC's sexuality.  When you start the game, Fenris would be gay or he would be straight, and there would be nothing you could do about that.

Being interactive, does not mean to control their thoughts, to choose to identify them according to your tastes.

You're conflating the actions of the player and the actions of the PC.  Those are entirely different entities.

You can not force Isabella to join the Qunari camps . She will always want to leave. However, I want it to be with me all the time, but the game refuses me this right. Yet I control this game, I want to roleplay like I want, and I want everything like I want. But no, I need to deal with the universe according to the writing. Because there is a story behind.

I think how DA2 handles Isabela in this respect is badly badly broken.

[Russalka]

I still cannot understand the problem. All the romance subplots worked and were quite full of depth, regardless of what sex my Hawke was.

[Chun Hei]

Russalka wrote...

I still cannot understand the problem. All the romance subplots worked and were quite full of depth, regardless of what sex my Hawke was.

That is pretty much my gripe with s/s critics as well. The DA2 romances may not be "realistic" but they actually improved over many of the LI troupes of recent year. Apparently the only way romances can strengthen immersion is if there is only one MALE s/s LI and he is either incredibly well hidden or is unconscious and killable when he's introduced to your party. Call me cynical but I do not think there would be so much whining and gnashing of teeth if the s/s LI were HAWT lesbians.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Chun Hei wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I still cannot understand the problem. All the romance subplots worked and were quite full of depth, regardless of what sex my Hawke was.

That is pretty much my gripe with s/s critics as well. The DA2 romances may not be "realistic" but they actually improved over many of the LI troupes of recent year. Apparently the only way romances can strengthen immersion is if there is only one MALE s/s LI and he is either incredibly well hidden or is unconscious and killable when he's introduced to your party. Call me cynical but I do not think there would be so much whining and gnashing of teeth if the s/s LI were HAWT lesbians.

You remember how FOX News responded to Mass Effect, right?