438 réponses à ce sujet

[culletron1]

jlb524 wrote...

culletron1 wrote...

But this absolutely does impact how I feel about the game world and the characters. The characters cease to be real people with wants, desires, like and dislikes and become a stepping stone to Hawke having an easy LI. 

If I play a different Hawke then I expect the outcomes to change but I expect the characters to be consistent no matter what I do.  

This is all subjective so I am not going to say you should or shouldn't feel that way but for me this really has a bad impact on immersion. The world seems less real and the characters come across as game constructs rather than people. 

You have to admit this is an issue with the DA:O romances as well.

Yeah... they are never likely to get this perfect but I think they hid it a bit better though. What with the hardening process for leliana and Alister. 

And actually the lack of a giant golden heart button helped there too

[culletron1]

centauri2002 wrote...

culletron1 wrote...

But this absolutely does impact how I feel about the game world and the characters. The characters cease to be real people with wants, desires, like and dislikes and become a stepping stone to Hawke having an easy LI. 

If I play a different Hawke then I expect the outcomes to change but I expect the characters to be consistent no matter what I do.  

This is all subjective so I am not going to say you should or shouldn't feel that way but for me this really has a bad impact on immersion. The world seems less real and the characters come across as game constructs rather than people. 

I'd love for the characters to be more realistic. It'd be great if they could react to the decisions you make based upon their own moral compass and personality; that they would refuse any advances if you made a decision they disagreed with, etc. I'd prefer if there were specifically gay characters, straight characters and bisexual characters. From a story perspective, that would be more realistic and a lot more fun. But, I also appreciate that there are limitations to coding, finances and time at the moment. Maybe we'll see all these included in the next game BioWare make. I hope so.

However, I'm not going to let it ruin my enjoyment of the existing games either. I can put aside things like that and just enjoy the story for what it is. At the end of the day, it's my form of  escapism and I don't want to get worked up over it.

Yeah, hopefully someday we'll see something like this...

[J.C. Blade]

centauri2002 wrote...

The way I see it with these kinds of games, every play through is a clean slate. In one save, Hawke can be female and romance Merrill who only happens to be attracted to her. She can choose to side with the mages and be a complete arse to everyone. In another play through Hawke can be male and romance a seemingly straight Merrill, side with the Templars and be a nice guy. I don't see how any of these choices would impact how you see the characters in another play through. People are saying that because there is the option of a romance there, that instantly makes them all bisexual. By this argument, Hawke would be both male and female and have split personalities. 

See, that's the wonder of fantastic storytelling. It's a pity not everything were up to such a standard. I've even created male characters on rare occasions to experience some romance storylines but I definitely enjoy them more as a female character. It's just easier for me to relate. As such, these increased options make games more enjoyable for me.

Everyone's different though so keeping everyone happy is never going to be possible.

Clear state for my new Hawke, yes. Clear state for the NPCs, no. They should be established by the writers and then evolve and maybe change if the story progression and PC's build allow them to. I don't want to be responsible for them (roleplay them) outside of comabt.

I play exclusively females too since I have very little idea how to roleplay a man, but then again, I have zero interest in s/s stuff so all that content is pretty much lost on me *shrug*

Bottom line is, I don't expect the whole world of influental possiblilities to be open before my character in the game. I'd give an example from New Vegas but I've typed enough already.

[jlb524]

culletron1 wrote...

Yeah... they are never likely to get this perfect but I think they hid it a bit better though. What with the hardening process for leliana and Alister. 

And actually the lack of a giant golden heart button helped there too

For me, being able to gift spam your companions to win their affection and rush through the romances kind of killed the DA:O romances...I actually found it quite laughable my first DA:O run.

The hardening mechanic didn't really affect the romance IIRC.

My Leliana romance scene/dialog was the same regardless of hardening her or not.

In DA2, I saw too different scenes with Merrill depending on friend/rival.

Modifié par jlb524, 24 janvier 2012 - 05:13 .

[J.C. Blade]

centauri2002 wrote...
I'd love for the characters to be more realistic. It'd be great if they could react to the decisions you make based upon their own moral compass and personality; that they would refuse any advances if you made a decision they disagreed with, etc. I'd prefer if there were specifically gay characters, straight characters and bisexual characters. From a story perspective, that would be more realistic and a lot more fun. But, I also appreciate that there are limitations to coding, finances and time at the moment. Maybe we'll see all these included in the next game BioWare make. I hope so.

Yeah, Baldur's Gate did that already -like/dislike counter, restrictions based on decisions, race/gender/aligment/class/stats checks...- and you could have up to 20 lovetalks + events on the side instead of a mesly 3 to 6 <_< Considering that the old Near Infinity (was that the name of it?) engin could do that, I'd say the romance execution has only gotten worse since.

[Wulfram]

Eh, while current romances are perhaps too accomodating in some ways, BG2 romances were too easy to screw up. And also not always very good at communicating that you had screwed them up. And having 3 options for the straight guys, 1 for straight women and nothing for anyone else was pretty bad.

Also, the game was too discriminatory against Dwarves and Halflings.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 janvier 2012 - 05:26 .

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...
Well, you can decide to sabotage Aveline's Donnic romance....

Any time you choose to romance an LI (regardless of gender/sexuality) you are deciding who they should love (your PC).

But That's only my choice, I don't decide for her, I am not in her mind. If I don't want to help Aveline to be with donnic, too bad for her, but that doesn't concern her, except for the consequences lol. If I want to be a douchebag to sabotage her chance with him, she has to deal with it, as I have to deal with the fact that she isn't attracted by me.

In hight school, a guy who loved the same girl as me, who did not know what was an honorable competition  without dirty tricks succedeed to make her believe that I was a very strange guy and I had said some bad stuff disgusting about her on msn. then, I argued with her, fell like an idiot into the trap, and it took several weeks before we talk again. If we weren't in the same school class, there would be no chance at all, to keep a real relationship between us.

This guy sabotaged my chances, just by his actions, yet he has not decided for me whom I could love or not. Or the girl could love or not. He was simply a douchebag, and only by his acts, there were hard consequences for me for a while.

I just wanted to answer to this. Otherwise, for the rest,  I think it's useless to come to that debate again, I just jumped on something I read in this topic and which displeased me in general, not necessarily specific to this subject, after some people forced me to elaborate more lol and I fell into this trap.  I stand to what I said to you in my mp. Now, I'm done in this kind of debate.  

So if you excuse me ------->[ ]

Jesus, I can't wait the 9 march, that I can finally leave the bsn.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 janvier 2012 - 05:32 .

[Kidd]

If we want LIs to be more exclusive, I kinda support that. But I think exclusive by gender and gender alone is completely arbitrary at that point. In DAO for instance, I could see Morrigan falling for other apostates who share her views - a Friendmance if you will. So make that Friendmance open to those who share her views and nothing else. Similarly, perhaps a Rivalmance if you managed to sway her slightly.

Of course, we kinda have that in Leliana and Alistair. They have Friend/Rivalmance. And actually, we have just what I described (albeit at a somewhat low level) in DA2 as well. Someone who does not conform to either romance path will not gain the affection of that LI, no matter how many heart icons they press. This is far more interesting to me, that you must have a personality that fits with the LI. What dangles from your chest or pubic area is a lot less interesting, at least to me.

[Centauri2002]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Clear state for my new Hawke, yes. Clear state for the NPCs, no. They should be established by the writers and then evolve and maybe change if the story progression and PC's build allow them to. I don't want to be responsible for them (roleplay them) outside of comabt.

I play exclusively females too since I have very little idea how to roleplay a man, but then again, I have zero interest in s/s stuff so all that content is pretty much lost on me *shrug*

Bottom line is, I don't expect the whole world of influental possiblilities to be open before my character in the game. I'd give an example from New Vegas but I've typed enough already.

I see your point. I can see why that would irk some people. Although, the characters are still static. They still follow the same programming no matter what you do. You're not really effecting them. I think this just comes down to execution. If the characters had been more difficult to romance and only became available to romance after you'd gone through hell and back then I don't think the bisexuality issue would have arisen. I think that's only come about because it's possible for quite a few of the LIs to hit on you in one play through. 

I do actually own Baldur's Gate. I just have never gotten around to playing it. I must remedy that. >.>

[J.C. Blade]

Wulfram wrote...

Eh, while current romances are perhaps too accomodating in some ways, BG2 romances were too easy to screw up. And also not always very good at communicating that you had screwed them up. And having 3 options for the straight guys, 1 for straight women and nothing for anyone else was pretty bad.

Also, the game was too discriminatory against Dwarves and Halflings.

True. But the point is, the coding itself allowed for creation of a romance, or a friendship, where an NPC could have a very detailed preferences. That and the lack of female romances in the original game is why there are still so many mods for the game being made.

Also, what is wrong with being able to screw them up easily? Because I certainly prefer that to the two big warning signs DA2 sports. "Golden Heart: Warning! You're about to begin journey into the unknown!" & "Broken Heart: Quick easy exit this way!"

[J.C. Blade]

centauri2002 wrote...

I see your point. I can see why that would irk some people. Although, the characters are still static. They still follow the same programming no matter what you do. You're not really effecting them. I think this just comes down to execution. If the characters had been more difficult to romance and only became available to romance after you'd gone through hell and back then I don't think the bisexuality issue would have arisen. I think that's only come about because it's possible for quite a few of the LIs to hit on you in one play through. 

I do actually own Baldur's Gate. I just have never gotten around to playing it. I must remedy that. >.>

The execution is largly the problem here. And here we'll have to agree to disagree because still do believe that I, as a player not as a Hawke, am effecting them. I still have to press that heart for them to find Hawke to be awesome like a button

I don't know if this was a bug but I managed to get all four LIs in my Hawke's large bed, one at the time naturally, in a single playthrough. Then I just re-loaded to see the final act with each of them. In one afternoon. Zero roleplaying recquired. Sufficient to say, I... didn't like that the game allowed me to do that.

Play it. And the get the mods. And then paly it again

[Wulfram]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Also, what is wrong with being able to screw them up easily? Because I certainly prefer that to the two big warning signs DA2 sports. "Golden Heart: Warning! You're about to begin journey into the unknown!" & "Broken Heart: Quick easy exit this way!"

In real life in a healthy relationship you can usually recover from some poorly chosen words through flowers and a heartfelt apology.  My memories of BGII are that they all tended to be one slip up and then it's over.

Though my memories of BGII may be a little distorted by my preferred romance being Jaheira, whose romance was particularly long and buggy

[jlb524]

J.C. Blade wrote...
Also, what is wrong with being able to screw them up easily? Because I certainly prefer that to the two big warning signs DA2 sports. "Golden Heart: Warning! You're about to begin journey into the unknown!" & "Broken Heart: Quick easy exit this way!"

I'd guess it's because romance content itself (no matter the orientation) is only pursued by a minority of the total people playing the game.

Why take the time to add in content most of your gamers won't see and then make it frackin' hard for the ones that do want to see the stuff?  Why further limit content that will only be seen by a minority?

Wulfram wrote...
Though my memories of BGII may be a little distorted by my preferred romance being Jaheira, whose romance was particularly long and buggy

I think it took three playthroughs and a fanmade patch for me to successfully complete that one.

I didn't find the other females all that difficult, though, as long as I 1) picked a male 2) picked the proper race at character creation.  After that, it was smooth sailing.

Edit:  But I do agree that the BG2 romances felt more...um, 'constricted' I think is the right word.   You absolutely had to press the right response at the right time or it was over.

From my experience with DA2 (I've only completed the Merrill romance, though), it seems there are multiple places where I can flirt and initiate the romance so I can pick and choose which makes the most sense for the Hawke I'm RPing.  I know you can flirt with her in Act 1 shortly after meeting her but if I'm playing a Hawke that isn't either:  1) incredibly forward with her attraction 2) attracted to Merrill at that time, I won't want to choose that option but I don't have to because there are further opportunities in Act 2.

Modifié par jlb524, 24 janvier 2012 - 05:55 .

[J.C. Blade]

Wulfram wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...
Also, what is wrong with being able to screw them up easily? Because I certainly prefer that to the two big warning signs DA2 sports. "Golden Heart: Warning! You're about to begin journey into the unknown!" & "Broken Heart: Quick easy exit this way!"

In real life in a healthy relationship you can usually recover from some poorly chosen words through flowers and a heartfelt apology.  My memories of BGII are that they all tended to be one slip up and then it's over.

Though my memories of BGII may be a little distorted by my preferred romance being Jaheira, whose romance was particularly long and buggy

And I'll admit that the original four BG2 romaces were easy to screw up and shut down (though personaly I was never bothered with that, not when all three females were at base of their writting ready to jump at your throat at the slightest of provocations:lol:) but the code itself alloed for a great deal more to be done with it. Some custom mods later allowed for several screw ups before the NPC finally decided that your PC was not worth the trouble.

I'm just saying, I want that kind of complexity when creating an NPC and his/her preferance (whatever they may be) back. It was done before. Anything comming out now is for me a water-downed soup in an expenssive and fancy plate. It may never happen again, but that's what I've grown up with and that's what I expect. Plenty of disappointment is heading my way, I know.

[CuriousArtemis]

You have to love entire threads that are devoted to taking options away from players. I love DA2 for making it possible for my Hawke to flirt and sleep with whomever he wants. Lets me tailor each PT differently. I have a Hawke who slept with Isabela for the first time (I'd never romanced her before); it was pretty cool; of course, he only slept with her because he was feeling frustrating and conflicted about Anders, whom he really loves but has been afraid to make the first move with. So thanks to BW I'm able to create this whole back story in my head, making this PT totally different from the last one, or the last time my M!Hawke romanced Anders. I've also had PT where a saucy Hawke flirted with EVERYONE (ultimately hooked up with Anders); another Hawke flirted with Tallis just to see her reaction (he didn't trust her); of course, Fenris (his current boyfriend) was not too pleased with his behavior!!

So, thanks, BW, for giving me, the player, tons of options, and letting me play the game how *I* want to play it!!

Only thing I agree with the OP about would be making the world more gay- and bi-friendly. There are a few gay couples out there (the guys in the smithy in Denerim, the two guys in Awakenings, the dwarf women in Paragon of her Kind), but I hate when my Hawke has to say something that makes it clear that s/s romance is not entirely accepted here; for example, when he asks about Karl, or when he asks Fenris after they've slept together if Fenris is upset because he's a guy. I haven't played the f/f romances, so I wonder if they have the same irritating lines.

[jlb524]

J.C. Blade wrote...
I'm just saying, I want that kind of complexity when creating an NPC and his/her preferance (whatever they may be) back. It was done before. Anything comming out now is for me a water-downed soup in an expenssive and fancy plate. It may never happen again, but that's what I've grown up with and that's what I expect. Plenty of disappointment is heading my way, I know.

Keep in mind that BG2 existed in a time where they used very little VA in game.  Thus, it wasn't expensive to have a lot more dialog that branched all over the place and even adding in dialog that some won't see due to restrictions.

When they made KoTOR, all the NPC dialog was voiced which is why I think those romances started the 'no restrictions' trend.  They could have easily written two separate romance paths for Bastila depending on whether you were playing a lightside or darkside character but they would have had to pay Jennifer Hale even more $$ to say all the extra lines...so you get one romance path.  Plus, if you are paying Hale to say all these romance lines, why restrict it to only a specific type of male?  It kind of seems wasteful to me...thus it was open to any male.

motomotogirl wrote...
I haven't played the f/f romances, so I wonder if they have the same irritating lines.

Not from my experience.

I do agree that it's totally irritating.

Modifié par jlb524, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:22 .

[esper]

motomotogirl wrote...

You have to love entire threads that are devoted to taking options away from players. I love DA2 for making it possible for my Hawke to flirt and sleep with whomever he wants. Lets me tailor each PT differently. I have a Hawke who slept with Isabela for the first time (I'd never romanced her before); it was pretty cool; of course, he only slept with her because he was feeling frustrating and conflicted about Anders, whom he really loves but has been afraid to make the first move with. So thanks to BW I'm able to create this whole back story in my head, making this PT totally different from the last one, or the last time my M!Hawke romanced Anders. I've also had PT where a saucy Hawke flirted with EVERYONE (ultimately hooked up with Anders); another Hawke flirted with Tallis just to see her reaction (he didn't trust her); of course, Fenris (his current boyfriend) was not too pleased with his behavior!!

So, thanks, BW, for giving me, the player, tons of options, and letting me play the game how *I* want to play it!!

Only thing I agree with the OP about would be making the world more gay- and bi-friendly. There are a few gay couples out there (the guys in the smithy in Denerim, the two guys in Awakenings, the dwarf women in Paragon of her Kind), but I hate when my Hawke has to say something that makes it clear that s/s romance is not entirely accepted here; for example, when he asks about Karl, or when he asks Fenris after they've slept together if Fenris is upset because he's a guy. I haven't played the f/f romances, so I wonder if they have the same irritating lines.

I think you are wrong here Motomo... (arggh, your name is too long, I hope motomo is all right). Dragon age generally doesn't bat an eyelid when it comes to s/s romances. With Anders it comes to coming from a circle and I think that it is a very good idea to hide that you are attracted to men when you are in a circle because I could easily see sadistic bastard like Alrik going... :Ah so you like men, let me show you a real man (the rest I leave to your imagination)
With Fenris it is personal, and he is about to litterary run away after sleeping with you. Anyone would have doubt, there.Including: Was this the right choice.
Dragon age as a soicity is extremely gay friendly compared to all the other problem it has going for it. But that does not mean that people can't have doubt on personals levels and those option should be there for people who like to play Hawkes who are unsure how they feel. 

[ladyofpayne]

I want evil male BI companion in party.

[esper]

ladyofpayne wrote...

I want evil male BI companion in party.

What do you define as evil?

[Sylvius the Mad]

culletron1 wrote...

If I play a different Hawke then I expect the outcomes to change but I expect the characters to be consistent no matter what I do. 

That's just silly.  Why would you assume that?

More importantly, for me, is that I can't imagine playing that way.  I think that would badly damage the game to have the companions be exactly the same people every time I play the game.  That would be boring.

[J.C. Blade]

jlb524 wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...
I'm just saying, I want that kind of complexity when creating an NPC and his/her preferance (whatever they may be) back. It was done before. Anything comming out now is for me a water-downed soup in an expenssive and fancy plate. It may never happen again, but that's what I've grown up with and that's what I expect. Plenty of disappointment is heading my way, I know.

Keep in mind that BG2 existed in a time where they used very little VA in game.  Thus, it wasn't expensive to have a lot more dialog that branched all over the place and even adding in dialog that some won't see due to restrictions.

I know. That's why I've been playing less and less of games since (well, that and other distribution related problems). The more of the budget voices and graphic take, the less likely is that I'm going to bother with a game.

[Nejeli]

culletron1 wrote...

But this absolutely does impact how I feel about the game world and the characters. The characters cease to be real people with wants, desires, like and dislikes and become a stepping stone to Hawke having an easy LI. 

If I play a different Hawke then I expect the outcomes to change but I expect the characters to be consistent no matter what I do.  

This is all subjective so I am not going to say you should or shouldn't feel that way but for me this really has a bad impact on immersion. The world seems less real and the characters come across as game constructs rather than people. 

But the DA2 love interests are all characters with their own likes, dislikes, wants and desires. They just don't revolve around romance. The romance isn't the point of their character arcs, and that's why I like the romance in DA2 so much. And, yes, getting them to fall in love with you takes little more than clicking the heart option, but this isn't much different from just choosing the flirt lines in DAO (I had enough approvale for Zevran to fall in love way, way before his Talisen quest, and the only gifts I gave him were his gloves, boots, and a silver bar) or just talking to the LIs in ME (I got into a relationship with Kaidan just by being nice to him.) It's not quite that cut and dry, though. You get more points by not pushing Fenris, for example, and Anders will break up with you if you deal with the demon in the Fade and don't kill it, no matter what your score with him is. Heck, despite her attitude, Isabela seems to want more than just a good time, because if you don't ask her about love the romance goes no where, no matter how much you flirt with her after.

The LIs have lives outside the main character. They have their own goals. They build their own relationships with each other. I don't understand how being able to romance them with either gender Hawke negates any of that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

jlb524 wrote...

Keep in mind that BG2 existed in a time where they used very little VA in game.  Thus, it wasn't expensive to have a lot more dialog that branched all over the place and even adding in dialog that some won't see due to restrictions.

I won't give BioWare a pass on that.  If there's a cost in player agency associated with extensive voice-over, we should talk about that.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

ladyofpayne wrote...

I want evil male BI companion in party.

http://forums.someth...ostid=398185941

Wish granted.

[Abispa]

EDIT: Dear God, I must have been drunk when I typed this.

Modifié par Abispa, 25 janvier 2012 - 09:29 .