1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Powers94]

JGray wrote...

After reading a few threads discussing the pros and cons involving Cerberus, I've decided to post a list of those things I believe Cerberus has done that qualify as a check in the 'evil' column. I encourage a pro-Cerberus player to do the same for the 'positive/good' column.

I am leaving out experiments that might be considered ethically gray such as experimenting on mindlessly rampaging rachni workers/soldiers or Thorian creepers. I'm also leaving out Project Overlord, since the ethics of experimenting on deactivated geth are gray and there's no sign that the Illusive Man or Cerberus were aware of the use of an autistic man in the experiment. One can argue, however, that Cerberus "corporate culture" encouraged the activity that led to both the destruction of Project: Overlord and the destruction of the facility holding Subject Zero. I'm also leaving out the experiments that led to the creation of the Adjutants because we don't know enough about them to know if the subjects were voluntary or not.

* Engineered "accidental" explosions that exposed large groups of humans to element zero in order to create human biotics. This also created a large number of birth defects and quite possibly cancer.

* Kidnapped a newborn baby from her mother and raised her in an isolated, scientific research facility in a manner that cannot, by any stretch of the term, be called nurturing. Other children were also brought to this facility, some rescued from slavers but others kidnapped as well. Note: I am not mentioning the torture, murder, or pit fights that too place at that facility because a case can be made that these acts were beyond Cerberus command's control.

* Experimented on an autistic human child in order to amplify her biotics. The drugs may have heightened her autism, making her incapable of living a normal life.

* Engaged in industrial espionage, sabotage of political candidates, and destructive black ops campaigns within the media.

* Assassinated a Pope with "pro-alien" leanings. Assassinated a System's Alliance MP for similar reasons. Murdered an Alliance Rear Admiral investigating them.

* Kidnapped, tortured, and experimented on Asari to better understand biotics. Very unlikely the Asari were released when experiments were done.

* Provided arms to criminal syndicates. Theoretically to allow human criminal enterprises to overcome Batarian criminal enterprises.

* Destroyed a vessel and killed all hands on board in order to assassinate an important Turian.

* Engaged in the sale and distribution of illegal drugs.

* Lured thresher maws to a human settlement. The settlement was wiped out as was most of the Alliance military unit that responded to it. A captive was taken and tortured/experimented on further.

* The kidnapping, torture, and eventual death of Paul Grayson. Purposefully forcing a drug addict to relapse and then infecting him with Reaper technology.

* The murder of Liselle, the daughter of Aria T'Loak.

some more from ME 1(if these have already been posted i apologize i only read the first couple of posts):
murder of an entire alliance patrol to study thresher maw
kidnapping and experimantation of a alliance marine to see the effects of thresher maw venom
murder of Admiral Mikhailovich by lethal injection and feeding him to rachni
turned inhabitants of a pioneer colony into husks

Modifié par Mr Powers94, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:49 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Phaedon wrote...
Can we actually talk about this?
Powell, the sleeping dock worker was the only one who was able to inform you about the Saren connection.
Without him, we would have been wiped out two years ago.

He has also killed less people than Cerberus, and is probably more succesful in his operations. How is he not infinitely more useful than Cerberus?

That's not actually relevant to the question, Phaedon, which seems to be "does the bad outweigh the good" and not "is Cerberus better than character X".

[King Minos]

If it was not for 'engineered' accident of element zero, we would not have biotics. I say that is a good thing.

Jack's treatment was poor, very bad. Nobody deserves that, but with the research they conducted on her will hopefully be able to increase biotic potential in Humans. I say that is a good thing.

Luring a squad of marines into a Thresher Maw nest was proberly so they can increase survival agaisnt the creatures since they are so dangerous and guessing here, quite common. I say this is a good thing.

The kidnapping of Paul Grayson i don't know much but if the goal to see how Reaper tech works and use the results to create weapons and prevent indoctrination. I say this is a good thing.

Sale of illegal drugs. This possibly increases tourism and boost the economy of certain planets or cities. Good thing.

Don't know about the others.

[Shatha Hunter]

I have to agree with Cerberus on some level: humanity needs a more persistent advocate. The council has always sought to maintain the galactic balance (as long as it's in their favor of course), and so they deny humans the equal respect and priviledges that the other council races naturally receive. Even when we had achieved full membership in their group, they still found ways to limit our reach. That is not cool.

Adding to that, I always got really annoyed when the Councilors continually refused to acknowledge my reports on the reapers.... and that Turian Council member was way over the edge with his condescending and accusatory remarks. Seriously, he criticised me and my actions almost every time I spoke with him.

Though considering past history, I guess I should consider the Alliance lucky. At least we weren't abandoned like the Quarians, or thrown into the dark ages like the Krogan, or culturally and politically denied as the Battarians were. There's no doubt that the Council holds their own species' position above the rest of the galactic community - they just hide this fact behind proganda, stating the other races aren't ready for the "responsiblities" of the Council. But getting back to my original point, I still don't agree with Cerberus.

They're openly xenophobic, and have a blatent disregard for the consequences of their actions. They've done things that are both inhumane and unatural, and I have no problem considering them terrorists. That is NOT who I want representing and guiding humanity.

I know, there are good arguments on both sides, but I think Cerberus is definitely not good for humans. We need to stand up for ourselves "without sacrificing the soul of our species", just as Paragon Sheperd said. I'm actually more supportive of the Terra Firma Party, even if some of their supporter's are racist. They understand the need for self-preservation and defense, minus the killing, torture, and espionage that Cerberus so rigorously utilizes.

So I'm pretty content with shooting down Cerberus clone troopers and pissing off the Illusive Man in ME3, especially since his goals have, evolved. He actually plans on gaining control of the reapers and using them to assure human dominance on a galactic scale (this was officially confirmed in the recent gameinformer magazine on the ME3 mars mission).

If that doesn't spell out evil and corrupt, then I don't know what does.

Modifié par Shatha Hunter, 23 janvier 2012 - 11:02 .

[King Minos]

Cerberus is Humanities Batman.

[Shatha Hunter]

mrsph wrote...

"Hey, guys. Remember how in the background humanity reached an absurd position of power in only thirty some years? Those aliens are totally in our way and stuff.

"

Good argument, but is it a bad thing that we want to have the equal rights and priviledges the Council races have? It's not like the Alliance wanted to take over the galaxy, just gain an equal modicum of respect.

[Phaedon]

King Minos wrote...
It's beneficial, for Science.

To get to the real cool parts of Science, moral lines have to be crossed.

I still don't understand why some people are agaisnt mechanical augmentation or Human hybrid's.

That really isn't saying much. Science and Technology are amoral tools. They can be used for moral and immoral progressions all the same.

Also, "cool" is an extremelly shallow way of judging progress. Sure, antibiotics aren't as flashy as robots or spaceships, but I am sure that the fact that they have helped people survive infections is pretty "cool".

And if you ask Albert Einstein, "flashy" is more often than not, severly "uncool".

I still don't understand why some people are agaisnt mechanical augmentation or Human hybrid's. 

Who is against mechanical augmentantion? Especially for handicapped people?

King Minos wrote...

Cerberus is Humanities Batman.

Yes.

The Front Page Films version.

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 janvier 2012 - 11:39 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Objection.

You don't know if Cerberus actually caused the massacre or what they were studying. They could have just as well moved in afterward to claim the survivor.

Speaking of which you don't actually know what the tests conducted on Toombs were for. The only source is Toombs and he is mentally disturbed. Not a very reliable witness.

I'll give you the first one.
But despite his less than stable mentallity the implication is clear that the tests were far from pleasant (and perhaps why Toombs isn't all there). Since it's a work of fiction you sometimes have to take these things more as fact than you would in real life.

King Minos wrote...

I say that is a good thing.

Though the effects may have panned out good for Cerberus and sometimes humanity, that doesn't actually excuse the heinousness of the actions themselves.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 24 janvier 2012 - 11:44 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Argh double post

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 24 janvier 2012 - 11:43 .

[Phaedon]

King Minos wrote...

I say that is a good thing.

Hey what do you know.

You also thought that it was a good thing to have a palace-centric collective economy and not bother to build walls because you had wooden ships. The Mycenaeans are pretty grateful, though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

It was to confirm that the collectors had an interest in  Shepard.  And they still achieved something in Horizon instead waiting a report of another colony attacked and fully abducted.

Hope your not running for president, what a scarey thought.
I see the logic in sacrificing a few for the many, but the ends do not always justify the means, if we lose our humanity while fighting for humanity then I see no justification in TIM's actions, TIM could have replaced the colonists with his own troops, funny how that did not happen.

Yes, I'm sure the collectors are deaf, blind and stupid and wouldn 't notice a massive evacuation of the colony.
And all the Colonists would happily follow Cerberus lead and it wouldn't cause a massive ruckus, oh no...<_<


Let's not forget that the Collectors might not take hte bait in the first place, so let's do everythnig we can to alter them and raise their suspicion.

It's good you'e not runnign for president, since you'r run the country into the ground to protect your silly illusions of "humanity".

[Lotion Soronarr]

So I'm pretty content with shooting down Cerberus clone troopers and pissing off the Illusive Man in ME3, especially since his goals have, evolved. He actually plans on gaining control of the reapers and using them to assure human dominance on a galactic scale (this was officially confirmed in the recent gameinformer magazine on the ME3 mars mission).

If that doesn't spell out evil and corrupt, then I don't know what does.

Actually, that spells out "pragmatic and smart".

[Lotion Soronarr]

dgcatanisiri wrote...
Here's my question. WHY does humanity deserve to be at the forefront of galactic civilization? And 'because we're human/the best' is not an answer.

Why don't we?

Deserve is a silly word in a galctic struggle for power. We deserve ti if we can get it. It's as simple as that.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...
Here's my question. WHY does humanity deserve to be at the forefront of galactic civilization? And 'because we're human/the best' is not an answer.

Why don't we?

Deserve is a silly word in a galctic struggle for power. We deserve ti if we can get it. It's as simple as that.

 If you regard 'deserve' a silly word to use.. then don't use it a second later

 What you could say is "It doesn't make sense to talk about 'deserve'.. whoever can get it does get it, and I want to get it"

[incinerator950]

I don't know why you're complaining, if they shoot you, shoot back. Talk about Cerberus when you're done defending your assets.

[incinerator950]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So I'm pretty content with shooting down Cerberus clone troopers and pissing off the Illusive Man in ME3, especially since his goals have, evolved. He actually plans on gaining control of the reapers and using them to assure human dominance on a galactic scale (this was officially confirmed in the recent gameinformer magazine on the ME3 mars mission).

If that doesn't spell out evil and corrupt, then I don't know what does.

Actually, that spells out "pragmatic and smart".

Well, that is actually.  However, it's against my plans, and most likely the Reaper's plans. 

I'd rather see a Rogue Reaper help Shepard, or even more ironic, EDI actually turn out to be Sovereign manifesting, and then helping Shepard.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...
Here's my question. WHY does humanity deserve to be at the forefront of galactic civilization? And 'because we're human/the best' is not an answer.

Why don't we?

Deserve is a silly word in a galctic struggle for power. We deserve ti if we can get it. It's as simple as that.

 If you regard 'deserve' a silly word to use.. then don't use it a second later

 What you could say is "It doesn't make sense to talk about 'deserve'.. whoever can get it does get it, and I want to get it"

Silly in the context - as who determines worth?
Who are you to say X doesn't deserve Y? By what right? By what criteria?
Hence the above.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...
Here's my question. WHY does humanity deserve to be at the forefront of galactic civilization? And 'because we're human/the best' is not an answer.

Why don't we?

Deserve is a silly word in a galctic struggle for power. We deserve ti if we can get it. It's as simple as that.

 If you regard 'deserve' a silly word to use.. then don't use it a second later

 What you could say is "It doesn't make sense to talk about 'deserve'.. whoever can get it does get it, and I want to get it"

Silly in the context - as who determines worth?
Who are you to say X doesn't deserve Y? By what right? By what criteria?
Hence the above.

   .. but stating that whoever gets it deserves it, you are determining worth

  You might think that before assigning desert there should be debate about those criteria; but it doesn't match to say that desert isn't a useful concept for this debate, and then to use it to define your stance

[Lotion Soronarr]

Missing the point...

[CaptainZaysh]

Calibration Master wrote...

Democracy is the worst idea humanity has ever come up with. It's an idealistic fairytale and it doesn't work very well in real life.

Um.  The richest, most technologically advanced and militarily powerful nation in human history would like a word with you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

oh, the irony......

[King Minos]

Phaedon wrote...

King Minos wrote...

I say that is a good thing.

Hey what do you know.

You also thought that it was a good thing to have a palace-centric collective economy and not bother to build walls because you had wooden ships. The Mycenaeans are pretty grateful, though.

Still joking about my empire?

Did i ever tell you i hate you? Well i am going to tell you now, incase you did not know. I hate you.

To your other post:

I did not mean cool as in oh wow, it's so shiny!

Cool as in what they can do with technology and science these days. The LHC is amazing, no denying that. The space station, tunnels under the ocean, cloning and possibly bring back extinct animals.

On augmentations, i don't understand how it is agaisnt ethics. I am not a god person so i personally find the arguement 'goes agaisnt god's deisng or creation' stupid.

Batman is serious business, don't laugh.

Modifié par King Minos, 24 janvier 2012 - 03:55 .

[Adragalus]

MisterJB wrote...

* Assassinated a Pope with "pro-alien" leanings.

 Wrong, they actually wanted a Pope with a forgiving attitude to the salarians so that they could form an Alliance against the turians. 

I don't think the issue here is the Pope's alien-relations views.

I could be TOTALLY reaching here, but I'm kinda sure the issue is with, you know, killing the Pope.

[Armass81]

Calibration Master wrote...

mitthrawuodo wrote...

LTiberious wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

LTiberious wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

LTiberious wrote...

One more thing.

Cerberus is not willing to enslave other races. It wants to make Humans dominant in the galaxy. Which is a great idea.

Great? How?

By any means possible

He was asking how it was a Great Idea.  Expand, explain, defend your position.  Otherwise you be trolling.

Pcff

Making the decisions, means that if you need - you can get a bigger slice of the cake.

Or - you just can lead the community to where you think is right. And thats good

Except that you may be wrong *gasp* and doing something bad. The opinion of one does not reflect the opinions of the community. Besides, TIM is becoming leader by money and force which is unfair and a leader should be chosen by the community because the majority agrees with him and the minority do not suffer. TIM doesn't do this

Pffff, idealism, right there in your post.

Democracy is the worst idea humanity has ever come up with. It's an idealistic fairytale and it doesn't work very well in real life.

Winston Churchill once said that Democracy is the worst form of government we have, except for all the other ones that have been tried.