1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

 

Saphra Deden wrote...
Uninformed... yes... that goes for Shepard too.

Since there is a lot you don't know that you don't know why don't you do the safe thing and make sure the Reaper attached to the Citadel trying to open a relay that will bring in hundreds or even thousands of its brethren is stopped BEFORE you worry about galactic stability? 

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're not unquestionably right. 

Yeah, you can make an argument from the claim that you're on the razor's edge of the Reaper invasion and the time taken to fart around with the Ascension is the difference between victory and defeat. You could also make the argument that letting the geth wipe out the Ascension et al. risks defeat in detail: maybe the firepower of the Citadel fleet is that difference, not the timing per se. Ignorance cuts both ways.

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

And letting the Reapers through a realy that gives them full access to the galaxy? That doesn't justify saving a few colonists.

I agree that's why it is easy for me to destroy the system.

However Paragons like yourself, if given the choice by Bioware, would choose to risk death to save your conscience.

You just won't admit it, not to me, probably not even to yourself.

No. Didn't I just say I agreed with destroying the relay?

And don't start the insults with me.

[Aimi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Not this again.

If you save the Ascension you are not going to gain any extra firepower. The Ascension cannot and will not help you. It is nearly "dead in the water" and is attempting to flee. If you save it that is what it will do.

I'm also going by the way the game and narrative presents this choice and it is apparent that the "tactical" choice is to let the DA die.

That's not apparent at all. It's as much of an assumption as the claim that the difference between success and victory is the difference between concentrating on Sovereign and not. You can't make arguments about saving the Ascension based on what it does after you make the choice, and then claim that arguments based on what happens after you make the choice (i.e. you still beat Sovereign) are invalid.

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
How do you know any of this?

Why don't you think the Collector base would have anything useful? It was building a Reaper and studying dead Reapers has been extremely useful so far. Why would the base be any different? It ought to be more useful since now we'd have the means to see how these technologies are produced in the first place which makes them easier to understand.

Wrong. It was building ONE Reaper, and if we managed to replicate a single one, or even thousands, we would still be overwhelmed. Which we wouldn't. We have had the Mass Relays laying around for centuries, and we have yet to manage to decipher them. What makes you think we could reverse engineer a Reaper, or actually be able to beat the Reapers? 

Saphra Deden wrote...
Yeah she did. She agreed to work for them on a suicide mission of all things. They didn't even offer to pay her anything.

Nope. Shepard =/= Cerberus.
You are recognized as such by most squadmates. Only Miranda says that she is personally treating this as a standard operation.

Also, the intel was pretty neat payment, if you ask me.
She also indirectly helped Cerberus only if Shepard saved the CB. And that doesn't mean much, because by ME3 Cerberus is siding with the Reapers.

JGray wrote...

See, now I wish I had made this thread all about Minoan bull-leaping. Maybe their high school team could have taken on the Atlantean high school team for the all Ancient World championship amphorae.

Man, the Atlanteans' ranking sure has sinked lately.

Maybe they are feeling a bit under the weather.

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

No. Didn't I just say I agreed with destroying the relay?

Yes, but you aren't being truthful about it, probably.

You only agree with it because Bioware left you no choice.

If there was another choice provided by Bioware it wouldn't have meant doom for the galaxy. But that wasn't the case.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 24 janvier 2012 - 09:05 .

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Not this again.

If you save the Ascension you are not going to gain any extra firepower. The Ascension cannot and will not help you. It is nearly "dead in the water" and is attempting to flee. If you save it that is what it will do.

I'm also going by the way the game and narrative presents this choice and it is apparent that the "tactical" choice is to let the DA die.

Sure, and cause a huge morale breakdown to all Council species right before an imminent Reaper invasion, where you know that everyone needs to stand together. You are also going by what you felt the game presented, or what you wanted it to present.

Others claim to have gone by the way the game presents the choice, and still went with saving the DA.

[TheCreeper]

The Destiny Ascension is the biggest ship outside the reapers and full of three of the most important people in the galaxy. and saving it requires the fleet to divert some of it's ships, not all of them. It places the SA ships at risk but doesn't strike me as something that would make or break the attack, the fifth fleet pretty much curbstomps the geth and Sovereign was distracted for almost the entire fight.

Modifié par TheCreeper, 24 janvier 2012 - 09:08 .

[JGray]

Phaedon wrote...

Man, the Atlanteans' ranking sure has sinked lately.

Maybe they are feeling a bit under the weather.

No kidding. Their performance in the last game was positively cataclysmic.

They were moving so slowly it was like they were swimming on the court.

Modifié par JGray, 24 janvier 2012 - 09:11 .

[Phaedon]

Oh, and also. Even in ME1 we know that there is an invasion coming. You are willing to let civilians die over sworn servicemen? Okay.

But you are also willing to destroy the biggest warhorse of our cavalry?

JGray wrote...
No kidding. Their performance in the last game was positively cataclysmic.

They were moving so slowly it was like their were swimming on the court.

Yeah. And to top it off, they are getting drowned in negative press.

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 janvier 2012 - 09:12 .

[Aimi]

JGray wrote...

No kidding. Their performance in the last game was positively cataclysmic.

They were moving so slowly it was like their were swimming on the court.

You could tell that their coach had quite the volcanic temper

he clearly wasn't happy after the team got its ash handed to it on a silver platter

[bleetman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Not this again.

If you save the Ascension you are not going to gain any extra firepower. The Ascension cannot and will not help you. It is nearly "dead in the water" and is attempting to flee. If you save it that is what it will do.

I'm also going by the way the game and narrative presents this choice and it is apparent that the "tactical" choice is to let the DA die.

For what it's worth, my personal justification for saving the council that particular time was not to much to actually save it, but to wipe out the geth fleet whilst it's temporarily pre-occupied. Having the alliance fleet caught between Sovereign and the geth once they're done blowing up the Destiny Ascension would be a massacre.

Not that Shepard can actually express it any other way than "save the council!", 'course.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 janvier 2012 - 09:17 .

[JGray]

Phaedon wrote...

Yeah. And to top it off, they are getting drowned in negative press.

daqs wrote...

You could tell that their coach had quite the volcanic temper

he clearly wasn't happy after the team got its ash handed to it on a silver platter

Personally, I think the orichalcum uniforms made the team look a little green in the gills.

[Aimi]

bleetman wrote...

For what it's worth, my personal justification for saving the council that particular time was not to much to actually save it, but to wipe out the geth fleet whilst it's temporarily pre-occupied. Having the alliance fleet caught between Sovereign and the geth once they're done blowing up the Destiny Ascension would be a massacre.

Exactly: you risk defeat in detail. Of course, as it turns out, the turians come in and wipe out the geth as they're taking out the DA, but you obviously wouldn't have known that at the time.

It's just a question of balancing timing and mass.

[Gold Dragon]

This again?  Why do pro-Cerberus groups always say that Paragon == Paladin, a Holy Warrior that can do no wrong?

They aren't the same.  A Paladin wouldn't have gone that deep undercover into enemy territory in the first place.


Wake me when March comes.  The screaming from pro-Cerberus fans when they finally realize that Cerberus is an enemy should be nice to hear.

[Poison_Berrie]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Council is horrible and to protect humanity from them Cerberus must be horrible as well. The Council has set the standard for galactic relations and it is a low one.

How do you come to this conclusion, I might ask?

From what we've seen before the entire Reaper thing the Council was favoring us over longer standing allies. 
It's shown itself to be a somewhat stabilizing factor in galatic politics if a bit ineffective governing body.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why don't you think the Collector base would have anything useful? It was building a Reaper and studying dead Reapers has been extremely useful so far. Why would the base be any different? It ought to be more useful since now we'd have the means to see how these technologies are produced in the first place which makes them easier to understand.

Aside from the short term for the entire Arrival thing?
Dead Reapers has been a mixed bag really. On the one hand it's indoctrinated many and endangered worlds several times. On the other hand we did get the Thanix Cannon (though that was as much from debris as battle analysis) and the Reaper IFF (which then brings the Collectors knocking).

Saphra Deden wrote...

However Paragons like yourself, if given the choice by Bioware, would choose to risk death to save your conscience.

You just won't admit it, not to me, probably not even to yourself.

In other words you know that anyone who doesn't agree with Cerberus is a full blown Paragon and all Paragon players are holier than thou Paladins and all their reasoning is wrong.
Your stabs at those with opposing views really are doing you any good.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 24 janvier 2012 - 09:51 .

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

No. Didn't I just say I agreed with destroying the relay?

Yes, but you aren't being truthful about it, probably.

You only agree with it because Bioware left you no choice.

And now the great infallible Saphra can read minds!

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...

This again?  Why do pro-Cerberus groups always say that Paragon == Paladin, a Holy Warrior that can do no wrong?

They aren't the same.  A Paladin wouldn't have gone that deep undercover into enemy territory in the first place.


Wake me when March comes.  The screaming from pro-Cerberus fans when they finally realize that Cerberus is an enemy should be nice to hear.

No-one ever said that Paragon = Paladin.

What we said and what we keep saying is that a pure-Paragon Shepard is an idealistic goody-two-shoes moron. If Mass Effect was even remotely realistic, than Paragon Shepard's campaign should already have ended in a disaster by the end of ME1.

Sadly, the folks at BioWare prefer a space opera fairytale over a realistic sci-fi game.

They never claimed otherwise. So you gotta wonder why people expect something different than what we got.

[ParagonForLife]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Council is horrible and to protect humanity from them Cerberus must be horrible as well. The Council has set the standard for galactic relations and it is a low one.

How do you come to this conclusion, I might ask?

From what we've seen before the entire Reaper thing the Council was favoring us over longer standing allies. 
It's shown itself to be a somewhat stabilizing factor in galatic politics if a bit ineffective governing body.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why don't you think the Collector base would have anything useful? It was building a Reaper and studying dead Reapers has been extremely useful so far. Why would the base be any different? It ought to be more useful since now we'd have the means to see how these technologies are produced in the first place which makes them easier to understand.

Aside from the short term for the entire Arrival thing?
Dead Reapers has been a mixed bag really. On the one hand it's indoctrinated many and endangered worlds several times. On the other hand we did get the Thanix Cannon (though that was as much from debris as battle analysis) and the Reaper IFF (which then brings the Collectors knocking).

Saphra Deden wrote...

However Paragons like yourself, if given the choice by Bioware, would choose to risk death to save your conscience.

You just won't admit it, not to me, probably not even to yourself.

In other words you know that anyone who doesn't agree with Cerberus is a full blown Paragon and all Paragon players are holier than thou Paladins and all their reasoning is wrong.
Your stabs at those with opposing views really are doing you any good.

I dont agree with cerberus because its ideals are flawed saying oh well all races have a group like the STG is wrong because Cerberus only answers to one man there is no checks and balances there is no way to control any abuse in power its all up to one man 
Cerberus has humanites best intrest no it does not it has what the illusive man thinks is best for humanity and he thinks that  Humans are superior to aliens now if humans have learned anything is that leads down a very very dark path we do not want to do the same mistakes we allready have which cost millions of lifes thinking your race is better then all others gives you the justification to  do anything to any other race because they are Sub-Human honestly I will kill every single cerberus operative who doesnt surrender to me

[Someone With Mass]

Luc0s wrote...
No-one ever said that Paragon = Paladin.

What we said and what we keep saying is that a pure-Paragon Shepard is an idealistic goody-two-shoes moron. If Mass Effect was even remotely realistic, than Paragon Shepard's campaign should already have ended in a disaster by the end of ME1.

Sadly, the folks at BioWare prefer a space opera fairytale over a realistic sci-fi game.

And Renegade Shepard would lie in a pool of his own blood in an alley somewhere because he finally pissed off the wrong people.

By the way, they pretty much rejected the realistic aspects of a sci-fi story when they introduced the element that can increase and lower an object's mass via an electrical current and allow ship to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of seconds.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 24 janvier 2012 - 10:16 .

[ParagonForLife]

Humanity has in less then 60 years achived Specter Status and has a Council seat so we are doing just fine