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[Bad King]

Assassinated a Pope with "pro-alien" leanings

Not pro-alien but pro-genophage cure. Cerberus were afraid that his views would break down relations between humanity and the salarians.

JGray wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

Edit: *
Engineered "accidental" explosions that exposed large groups of humans
to element zero in order to create human biotics. This also created a
large number of birth defects and quite possibly cancer.
.
Wasn't this years before Cerberus even existed? 

No, Cerberus caused the Eldfell-Ashland accident in 2170. Paul Grayson was in charge of the operation.

True. Most of them however were thought to be caused by Conatix (who were likely supported by the Alliance).

Modifié par Bad King, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:18 .

[LTiberious]

Skullheart wrote...

- Resurrecting Shepard.

- Saving the coulncil from a batarian terrorist attack.

- Helping the colonies attacked by the collectors.

- Pushing the Alliance to build the Normandy to learn turian technology.

-Having a charismatic leader.

[MisterJB]

LordJeyl wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

- Pushing the Alliance to build the Normandy to learn turian technology.

You do realize that this was done as an act of understanding Turian technology so that mankind would eventually dominate the galaxy. 

Cerberus isn't some group that does good deeds every now and than because they're generous. They're doing it to achieve their own goals. TIM specifically stated that Cerberus' goal is securing humanity's dominance of the galaxy, not being a part of the galaxy or joining the council to coexist with the other species, but to be in charge.

Human dominance is not a bad thing.
During ME1, Asari, Salarians and Turians dominated the galaxy. They passed the laws, judged the "lesser races", they even had their own Cerberus, it's called the Spectres. However, there is no slavery, besides the drell, or genocides, except the Krogan and the Rachni...you know what, the Council really sucks.

However, many people seem to defend this system. Then why stand against a future more favorable to humans? Who says that, just because humans are in power, the other species will suddenly be destroyed or enslaved?

[KotorEffect3]

Skullheart wrote...

You know... if Cerberus never existed the whole galaxy will being harvested by the reapers.

No Ceberus = No Normandy (they encouraged the alliance to co-develop the ship with the turians)
No Normandy = No travel to Ilos (any other ship would have been destroyed by the geth ships on orbit).
No Shep traveling to ilos = Saren activates the Citadel, and critical mission failure.

Nihlus a turian spectre submitted Shepard's name to the council for spectre training.  The Normandy was codeveloped with the Turians.  A Turian or a Krogan pointed Shepard into the direction of a Quarian who had evidence implicating Saren as a traitor which in turn lead to Shepard being inducted into the spectres.  An asari gave Shepard the cipher which helped him to understand his visions while he was also aided in clarifying those visions with another asari.  His mission on virmire was made possible due to the battle plan that was brought up by the Salarian STG captain that made it possible for Shepard to discover that Sovereign was the true enemy and managed to destroy a facility that would have breeded an army of indoctrinated Krogan.  Then another asari momentarily broke free of reaper indoctrination to give Shepard coordinates of the Mu relay which got him to Ilos.  So yeah Cerebrus can kiss my alien loving keister because Shepard never would have accomplished what he did without the aide of aliens.

[Volus Warlord]

MisterJB wrote...

LordJeyl wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

- Pushing the Alliance to build the Normandy to learn turian technology.

You do realize that this was done as an act of understanding Turian technology so that mankind would eventually dominate the galaxy. 

Cerberus isn't some group that does good deeds every now and than because they're generous. They're doing it to achieve their own goals. TIM specifically stated that Cerberus' goal is securing humanity's dominance of the galaxy, not being a part of the galaxy or joining the council to coexist with the other species, but to be in charge.

Human dominance is not a bad thing.
During ME1, Asari, Salarians and Turians dominated the galaxy. They passed the laws, judged the "lesser races", they even had their own Cerberus, it's called the Spectres. However, there is no slavery, besides the drell, or genocides, except the Krogan and the Rachni...you know what, the Council really sucks.

However, many people seem to defend this system. Then why stand against a future more favorable to humans? Who says that, just because humans are in power, the other species will suddenly be destroyed or enslaved?

There seems to be a misunderstanding.

The anti-Cerberus bunch are not anti-Cerberus out of concern for the other races. 

They are anti-Cerberus for a moral ego trip.

[KotorEffect3]

Volus Warlord wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LordJeyl wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

- Pushing the Alliance to build the Normandy to learn turian technology.

You do realize that this was done as an act of understanding Turian technology so that mankind would eventually dominate the galaxy. 

Cerberus isn't some group that does good deeds every now and than because they're generous. They're doing it to achieve their own goals. TIM specifically stated that Cerberus' goal is securing humanity's dominance of the galaxy, not being a part of the galaxy or joining the council to coexist with the other species, but to be in charge.

Human dominance is not a bad thing.
During ME1, Asari, Salarians and Turians dominated the galaxy. They passed the laws, judged the "lesser races", they even had their own Cerberus, it's called the Spectres. However, there is no slavery, besides the drell, or genocides, except the Krogan and the Rachni...you know what, the Council really sucks.

However, many people seem to defend this system. Then why stand against a future more favorable to humans? Who says that, just because humans are in power, the other species will suddenly be destroyed or enslaved?

There seems to be a misunderstanding.

The anti-Cerberus bunch are not anti-Cerberus out of concern for the other races. 

They are anti-Cerberus for a moral ego trip.

Read the books cerberus is downright xenophobic.  Don't tell me you believe the BS Miranda is feeding you when she is defending ceberus and even then she finally comes to her senses in the collector base.

[JGray]

Skullheart wrote...

Human dominance is not a bad thing.
During ME1, Asari, Salarians and Turians dominated the galaxy. They passed the laws, judged the "lesser races", they even had their own Cerberus, it's called the Spectres. However, there is no slavery, besides the drell, or genocides, except the Krogan and the Rachni...you know what, the Council really sucks.

However, many people seem to defend this system. Then why stand against a future more favorable to humans? Who says that, just because humans are in power, the other species will suddenly be destroyed or enslaved?

When one group has total power over another there are always abuses. The Jim Crow south. Iraq under Hussein. The Soviet Union under Stalin. American Indian children being ripped away from their homes and forced into schools to educate the "savage" out of them. Even at its most benign, when a single group is in charge (dominant, if you will) they will almost always favor their own over others. The best territory, resources, and contracts go to organizations and companies run by members of the dominant group.

Especially when the group in charge is quietly dominanted by an organization willing to murder, torture, and worse to promote their goals. An organization with no checks and balances to keep them from growing too powerful or too corrupt.

Quite honestly, much of what Cerberus has done is no better than what was done to black men during the Tuskagee experiments. In fact, its often worse. At least in the Tuskagee experiments the government didn't actively infect the men with syphillis.

[Skullheart]

Oh yeah, let's remember the treaty of Farixen. Before ME1 the Alliance only can have 1 dreadnough by every 5 turians dreadnoughs.

A lot of turian doesn't like humans, even those in high positions (turian councilor was clearly anti-human, and Saren).

Was it really too bad to learn about turian technology? They were "friendly" with mankind only for the council pressure. If humanity didn't make a good fight on Shanxi, the hierarchy would have made its way to Earth and conquered humanity, then treat us like their client species.

[seirhart]

I'm glad I got rid of the base after telling T.I.M what he can do to himself. We don't need the information from the collector base to beat the reapers.

[Volus Warlord]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

There seems to be a misunderstanding.

The anti-Cerberus bunch are not anti-Cerberus out of concern for the other races. 

They are anti-Cerberus for a moral ego trip.

Read the books cerberus is downright xenophobic.  Don't tell me you believe the BS Miranda is feeding you when she is defending ceberus and even then she finally comes to her senses in the collector base.

Do you think I'd be Pro-Cerberus because of Miri? 

[KotorEffect3]

Skullheart wrote...

Oh yeah, let's remember the treaty of Farixen. Before ME1 the Alliance only can have 1 dreadnough by every 5 turians dreadnoughs.

A lot of turian doesn't like humans, even those in high positions (turian councilor was clearly anti-human, and Saren).

Was it really too bad to learn about turian technology? They were "friendly" with mankind only for the council pressure. If humanity didn't make a good fight on Shanxi, the hierarchy would have made its way to Earth and conquered humanity, then treat us like their client species.

The turians are a mixed bag for every turian that you meet that is hostile towards humans you will meet one that is friendly towards humans.   In all honesty that is why I am looking forward to the Palevan moon sections the most right now.  They have the most complicated attitude towards humans than any other species.  

[Skullheart]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

You know... if Cerberus never existed the whole galaxy will being harvested by the reapers.

No Ceberus = No Normandy (they encouraged the alliance to co-develop the ship with the turians)
No Normandy = No travel to Ilos (any other ship would have been destroyed by the geth ships on orbit).
No Shep traveling to ilos = Saren activates the Citadel, and critical mission failure.

Nihlus a turian spectre submitted Shepard's name to the council for spectre training.  The Normandy was codeveloped with the Turians.  A Turian or a Krogan pointed Shepard into the direction of a Quarian who had evidence implicating Saren as a traitor which in turn lead to Shepard being inducted into the spectres.  An asari gave Shepard the cipher which helped him to understand his visions while he was also aided in clarifying those visions with another asari.  His mission on virmire was made possible due to the battle plan that was brought up by the Salarian STG captain that made it possible for Shepard to discover that Sovereign was the true enemy and managed to destroy a facility that would have breeded an army of indoctrinated Krogan.  Then another asari momentarily broke free of reaper indoctrination to give Shepard coordinates of the Mu relay which got him to Ilos.  So yeah Cerebrus can kiss my alien loving keister because Shepard never would have accomplished what he did without the aide of aliens.

Okey, But could he do it without the Normandy?

[KotorEffect3]

Volus Warlord wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

There seems to be a misunderstanding.

The anti-Cerberus bunch are not anti-Cerberus out of concern for the other races. 

They are anti-Cerberus for a moral ego trip.

Read the books cerberus is downright xenophobic.  Don't tell me you believe the BS Miranda is feeding you when she is defending ceberus and even then she finally comes to her senses in the collector base.

Do you think I'd be Pro-Cerberus because of Miri? 

No but you are pro cerberus because of the lines that she and TIM feed you.

[KotorEffect3]

Skullheart wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

You know... if Cerberus never existed the whole galaxy will being harvested by the reapers.

No Ceberus = No Normandy (they encouraged the alliance to co-develop the ship with the turians)
No Normandy = No travel to Ilos (any other ship would have been destroyed by the geth ships on orbit).
No Shep traveling to ilos = Saren activates the Citadel, and critical mission failure.

Nihlus a turian spectre submitted Shepard's name to the council for spectre training.  The Normandy was codeveloped with the Turians.  A Turian or a Krogan pointed Shepard into the direction of a Quarian who had evidence implicating Saren as a traitor which in turn lead to Shepard being inducted into the spectres.  An asari gave Shepard the cipher which helped him to understand his visions while he was also aided in clarifying those visions with another asari.  His mission on virmire was made possible due to the battle plan that was brought up by the Salarian STG captain that made it possible for Shepard to discover that Sovereign was the true enemy and managed to destroy a facility that would have breeded an army of indoctrinated Krogan.  Then another asari momentarily broke free of reaper indoctrination to give Shepard coordinates of the Mu relay which got him to Ilos.  So yeah Cerebrus can kiss my alien loving keister because Shepard never would have accomplished what he did without the aide of aliens.

Okey, But could he do it without the Normandy?

You mean the ship that was co-developed with the turians?   I guess you are right,  Shepard never would have stopped Saren if it wasn't for the help of the turians.

[Skullheart]

They were still a potential enemy until 1183, when they needed mankind to save the Citadel. Every action to learn about them before that year has justification.

[MisterJB]

JGray wrote...
When one group has total power over another there are always abuses. The Jim Crow south. Iraq under Hussein. The Soviet Union under Stalin. American Indian children being ripped away from their homes and forced into schools to educate the "savage" out of them. Even at its most benign, when a single group is in charge (dominant, if you will) they will almost always favor their own over others. The best territory, resources, and contracts go to organizations and companies run by members of the dominant group.

Especially when the group in charge is quietly dominanted by an organization willing to murder, torture, and worse to promote their goals. An organization with no checks and balances to keep them from growing too powerful or too corrupt.

Quite honestly, much of what Cerberus has done is no better than what was done to black men during the Tuskagee experiments. In fact, its often worse. At least in the Tuskagee experiments the government didn't actively infect the men with syphillis.

Again, you just described the Citadel Council. They are tyrants, they constantly abuse their power to keep themselves and the species that serve them in power while keeping everyone else down.
How is the Council any better than Cerberus. The only difference is that one promotes alien dominance while the other promotes human. Between two evils, I'll pick the humans.

[Armass81]

Whatever slime you throw about from Cerberus it doesnt matter to the average Cerberus fanboy who is already hardwired to like the organization no matter what and only says:

"*Sniff* TIMs a saint!"

[Volus Warlord]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

There seems to be a misunderstanding.

The anti-Cerberus bunch are not anti-Cerberus out of concern for the other races. 

They are anti-Cerberus for a moral ego trip.

Read the books cerberus is downright xenophobic.  Don't tell me you believe the BS Miranda is feeding you when she is defending ceberus and even then she finally comes to her senses in the collector base.

Do you think I'd be Pro-Cerberus because of Miri? 

No but you are pro cerberus because of the lines that she and TIM feed you.

And you're pro-council because.. you like air quotes?

[Skullheart]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
You mean the ship that was co-developed with the turians?   I guess you are right,  Shepard never would have stopped Saren if it wasn't for the help of the turians.

That ship exists because Cerberus and the Alliance, not the Turians. We haven't heard about any stealth turian vessel, right?

[Volus Warlord]

Armass81 wrote...

Whatever slime you throw about from Cerberus it doesnt matter to the average Cerberus fanboy who is already hardwired to like the organization no matter what and only says:

"*Sniff* TIMs a saint!"

 lmao! Nobody thinks TIM is a saint. If he was, I probably wouldn't like him at all.

[MisterJB]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
 Shepard never would have accomplished what he did without the aide of aliens.

Your point being?
You can be pro-human without being anti-alien. There is nothing wrong with cooperating with the aliens, we can learn a lot from them. We just have to always remember that they do not have our best interests in minds.

[Calibration Master]

JGray wrote...

 Even at its most benign, when a single group is in charge (dominant, if you will) they will almost always favor their own over others. The best territory, resources, and contracts go to organizations and companies run by members of the dominant group.

Jep, sounds like the perfect description of the Asari+Salarian+Turian Council.  They give their own species the best territory and resources, while we humans have to settle the unstable regions in the Attican Traverse. And when human colonies get attacked, the Council refuses to help us. Instead, they blame us humans for being so dumb to settle in the Traverse. "Humanity was well aware of the risks", the smug Asari councilor says.

Yeaaaaaah Mrs. Asari councilor, we were indeed aware of the risks, but we didn't have any choice now did we? You made us settle those regions because all the stable and save regions are already appointed to your own species! You appointed us the Traverse. We played by your rules and indeed settled in the Traverse. Now we get f*cked by Saren's Geth and later we get f*cked by the Collectors and what do we get from the council? Just a smug preach on how we shouldn't have settled in the Traverse! <_<

Modifié par Calibration Master, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:39 .

[KotorEffect3]

Skullheart wrote...

They were still a potential enemy until 1183, when they needed mankind to save the Citadel. Every action to learn about them before that year has justification.

They were also a potential ally.  I'd rather have them as an ally than an enemy.  Look I don't think the Turians were justified in instigating the first contact war but it's not worth holding a grudge over.  Especialy with the reapers on the horizon.  We are going to need the Turian military before all is said and done.  Besides who else is going to calibrate the Normandy's guns?

[OmegaBlue0231]

MisterJB wrote...

JGray wrote...
When one group has total power over another there are always abuses. The Jim Crow south. Iraq under Hussein. The Soviet Union under Stalin. American Indian children being ripped away from their homes and forced into schools to educate the "savage" out of them. Even at its most benign, when a single group is in charge (dominant, if you will) they will almost always favor their own over others. The best territory, resources, and contracts go to organizations and companies run by members of the dominant group.

Especially when the group in charge is quietly dominanted by an organization willing to murder, torture, and worse to promote their goals. An organization with no checks and balances to keep them from growing too powerful or too corrupt.

Quite honestly, much of what Cerberus has done is no better than what was done to black men during the Tuskagee experiments. In fact, its often worse. At least in the Tuskagee experiments the government didn't actively infect the men with syphillis.

Again, you just described the Citadel Council. They are tyrants, they constantly abuse their power to keep themselves and the species that serve them in power while keeping everyone else down.
How is the Council any better than Cerberus. The only difference is that one promotes alien dominance while the other promotes human. Between two evils, I'll pick the humans.

1. Humans are now on the council.
2. Humans now have Spectres.

If as you say Cerberus is the same as the council then why not just have things stay the same?