1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Adragalus]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Shepard and his mutispecies squad stopped the collectors, ceberus only cared about their technology.

You aren't being very fair here.

What's the point in debating this with you?

Your mind is made up. Even when Cerberus obectively does something good you find a reason to hate them for it.

I wonder why they even try. Poor guys. (and gals)

"The technology from that base could have secured human dominance in the galaxy, against the Reapers and beyond!" Yeah, that doesn't seem like something good. In fact, that sounds just like someone who only cares about the Reaper's technology and obtaining it from the Collectors.

"Human dominance, or just Cerberus?" "Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human -- Cerberus IS humanity!" When asked a direct question about one's motives for dominance, dodging the question by attempting to pass it off as altruism is not the best way to convince me that your motives are in fact in the interests of the majority of the human race. By trying to muddle Shepard's question up, TIM only seems more and more like a power-hungry bastard, trying to throw someone off the scent of his selfish motivations.

[Heimdall]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Did they now?  Can I see a quote?

Page 121

"The only viable strategy was a blitz approach; simultanesouly arrest all known Cerberus operatives on the Citadel..."

It simply isn't possible for the Turians to have abducted all those people if they were high ranking and protected unless they were all far lower ranking than we are led to believe Cerberus has moles.  In which case, it is unlikely they have any information Turian intelligence is unware of.

Not kidnap, arrest.

Page 122
"Executor Palin, the had of C-Sec had served under General Oriana during his sting in the military, so he had readily agreed to create a special C-sec turian exclusive task force to aid in their efforts."

They didn't abduct them. C-sec just walked into their offices and arrested them with full authority

That's different then.  C-Sec is not an arm of the turian hierarchy and has the right to arrest them.  They do not have the right to beat alliance information out of them.  Doing so would be illegal and if Palin is half as dedicated to doing things by the book as he was in ME1, unlikely to happen.

[ParagonForLife]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Well it's not very hard to see through their crap especially when TIM says he intends to use the base to secure human dominance.

Why wouldn't he? He also says he intends to use it against the Reapers.

Why is this bad?

Would Cerberus only be good if they wanted to stop the Collectors but refused to capitalize on that victory and try to defeat the Reapers too?

I guarantee you if it was the Council they'd want that Collector base too. However I'm sure you'd be fine with that because... I can't think of any intelligent reason and I'll be surprised if I hear on.

Shepard and his "multicultural" squad helped too, yes. However the fact that you refuse to give Cerberus any credit is evidence of your bias.

Who paid you? Cerberus.

Who gave you the intel? Cerberus.

Who gave you a crew? Cerberus.

Who gave you a ship? Cerberus.

Who gave you squadmates? Cerberus.

Who gave you weapons? Cerberus.

Who gave you your life back? Cerberus.

Who gets some of the credit for stopping the Collectors? Apparently not Cerberus.

 
Who paid you Cerberus: Cerberus gained from sheppard more then they spent on him
Who gave you a crew: The Reapers because EDI controls the Normandy now.
Who Gave you a Ship:Turians because without them helping the SR-1 whould never have been what it was
Who gave you squadmates:Sheppard because your squadmates join for you not cerberus garrus doesnt go OMG CERBERUS Ive allways wanted to work for them 
Who Gave you weapons:Bought them and found them
Who gave you your life back: Liara for finding my body before the collectors 
rawr..

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'm not saying it was my priority, I was just saying that I could understand Anderson wanting to finally get rid of them.

Riiight... let's off the one group that is trying to stave of the coming Armaggeddon. This will surely be a productive endeavor.

They're a black ops organization with a few fancy labs. What are they going to do now? Start another ambitious experiment and have it fail miserably?

Try working with the Reapers to gain their trust in an attempt to kill them on the inside using an ancient weapon and fail miserably? Oh wait...

Modifié par Blacklash93, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:03 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'm not saying it was my priority, I was just saying that I could understand Anderson wanting to finally get rid of them.

Riiight... let's off the one group that is trying to stave of the coming Armaggeddon. This will surely be a productive endeavor.

I don't believe Cerberus is the only group that can and is working against the Reapers. If so it is bad writing tbh. As it is that Cerberus seems to find derelict reapers etc. that races who use the mass effect tech for 1000 years didn't find. I mean why wouldn't the Turians or Salarians find evidence? Why wouldn't they interprete the evidence the same way as Cerberus? It's not like humans are generally smarter or more capable. Just Cerberus seems to be. Which is either rather bad writing or they had help. From either Protheans or Reapers. My money would be on Reapers though because I wouldn't know why Protheans of all people work with Cerberus. But if Cerberus works with the Reapers or had help from Reapers in any way then it makes them just even more suspicious.

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Well it's not very hard to see through their crap especially when TIM says he intends to use the base to secure human dominance.

Why wouldn't he? He also says he intends to use it against the Reapers.

Why is this bad?

Would Cerberus only be good if they wanted to stop the Collectors but refused to capitalize on that victory and try to defeat the Reapers too?

I guarantee you if it was the Council they'd want that Collector base too. However I'm sure you'd be fine with that because... I can't think of any intelligent reason and I'll be surprised if I hear on.

Shepard and his "multicultural" squad helped too, yes. However the fact that you refuse to give Cerberus any credit is evidence of your bias.

Who paid you? Cerberus.

Who gave you the intel? Cerberus.

Who gave you a crew? Cerberus.

Who gave you a ship? Cerberus.

Who gave you squadmates? Cerberus.

Who gave you weapons? Cerberus.

Who gave you your life back? Cerberus.

Who gets some of the credit for stopping the Collectors? Apparently not Cerberus.

TIM wasn't taking fire from the collectors or risking his own neck going through the omega 4 relay (Shepard even says they have room on the Normandy and TIM declines).  I will give Miranda and Jacob credit  for at least having the guts to fight but Jacob wasn't too fond of cerberus himself and even Miranda had the sense to resign when she saw what cerberus was truly about.

I give cerberus credit for giving shepard his needed resources in ME 2 but that doesn't change what they are at their core.  And we saw the true cerberus at Pragia, project overlord, in ME 1 etc...

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

When asked a direct question about one's motives for dominance, dodging the question by attempting to pass it off as altruism is not the best way to convince me that your motives are in fact in the interests of the majority of the human race. By trying to muddle Shepard's question up, TIM only seems more and more like a power-hungry bastard, trying to throw someone off the scent of his selfish motivations.

Right. Cerberus wanting dominance and power for humanity means Cerberus hates humanity.

I'm sure the whole dominance angle will fade away once the galaxy comes into contact with another. Then we can band together to fight them and/or get into a mess of dirty politics and rogue supremacy organizations!

Or maybe we'll get tired of this primitive pattern of conflict that's just pathetic to watch. One can hope...

[Adragalus]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

When asked a direct question about one's motives for dominance, dodging the question by attempting to pass it off as altruism is not the best way to convince me that your motives are in fact in the interests of the majority of the human race. By trying to muddle Shepard's question up, TIM only seems more and more like a power-hungry bastard, trying to throw someone off the scent of his selfish motivations.

Right. Cerberus wanting dominance and power for humanity means Cerberus hates humanity.

That's Paragon logic for ya'.

Right. Deliberately ignore my point about that quote suggesting that TIM is out more for his own gains than he is for the overall good of humanity, and instead interpret it as me saying "Cerberus hates humanity," which is an almost amusingly large logical discrepancy.

That's cherrypicking my points for ya. You conceited, hypocritical Cerberus fanboy.

Modifié par Adragalus, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:04 .

[ParagonForLife]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

When asked a direct question about one's motives for dominance, dodging the question by attempting to pass it off as altruism is not the best way to convince me that your motives are in fact in the interests of the majority of the human race. By trying to muddle Shepard's question up, TIM only seems more and more like a power-hungry bastard, trying to throw someone off the scent of his selfish motivations.

Right. Cerberus wanting dominance and power for humanity means Cerberus hates humanity.

That's Paragon logic for ya'.

Cerberus wants to destroy the alliance and before you even go NO they dont yea they do as the alliance exsists now it whould never allow Cerberus control Cerberus doesnt care what humans want they only care for what the illusive man says is best so yea I gusse being human you should support cerberus if you enjoy Tyrants who dont get voted into power or who can do whatever they want too YAYYYYYY Fascism

[KotorEffect3]

Adragalus wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

When asked a direct question about one's motives for dominance, dodging the question by attempting to pass it off as altruism is not the best way to convince me that your motives are in fact in the interests of the majority of the human race. By trying to muddle Shepard's question up, TIM only seems more and more like a power-hungry bastard, trying to throw someone off the scent of his selfish motivations.

Right. Cerberus wanting dominance and power for humanity means Cerberus hates humanity.

That's Paragon logic for ya'.

Right. Deliberately ignore my point about that quote suggesting that TIM is out more for his own gains than he is for the overall good of humanity, and instead interpreting it as me saying "Cerberus hates humanity."

That's cherrypicking my points for ya. You conceited, hypocritical Cerberus fanboy.

Cherrypicking is part of Saphra's strategy.  He can't debate otherwise.

[Poison_Berrie]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Go read the wiki.

From what I've read there isn't really anything so terrible I'd consider them worse than Cerberus.

There's short-sightedness, and quite some mistakes, but none what I've read seems to be exceptional for a governing body.
Not a lot of new info. 

So I just don't see it.

[Adragalus]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Cherrypicking is part of Saphra's strategy.  He can't debate otherwise.

So I have begun to notice.

I find it funny that, from my first post in this thread, and as far as I am aware, my first interaction with Saphra at all, he decides that I'm a paragon.Simply from a comment analyzing the possible motivations and implications of a somewhat logically questionable dodge-the-question from TIM.

[AlexXIV]

The question whether Cerberus is pro-human or not is not as important imo. More important is the question whether what they do will ultimately serve humanity or not. You know, good intentions etc. I can't possibly imagine a scenario humanity vs the rest of the galaxy is something that would work out well. Of course Bioware could write it that way, but I think considering the balance of power in the galaxy it would only result in humans dying and then ... more humans dying. And for what? The theory that dominance is important for humanity.

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You might be right, but the road there will still be paved with blood.

It's funny. We call ourself sapient creatures, yet we fall into the same bloody patterns that are just as primitive as animal behavior over and over again.

Fear of the new and unknown.
Killing and hating the new and unknown.
Banding together with what used to be the new and unknown to fight the newer and more unknown.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:11 .

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
You might be right, but the road there will still be paved with blood.

It's funny. We call ourself sapient creatures, yet we fall into the same bloody patterns that are just as primitive as animal behavior over and over again.

Right it's real tragic.

It's just sad to watch. It's also sad to see organizations like Cerberus perpetuate the cycle.

[Random Geth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'm not saying it was my priority, I was just saying that I could understand Anderson wanting to finally get rid of them.

Riiight... let's off the one group that is trying to stave of the coming Armaggeddon. This will surely be a productive endeavor.

And they're doing SUCH a great job, what with continuing to get their facilities destroyed and personnel slaughtered (again), continuing to ignore diplomacy in favor of self-righteous antagonism, and TIM lying to his ace card at every opportunity where it'd suit him.

Reviving Shep and creating the SR-2, not to mention the SR-2's crew (such as Kelly, Ken&Gabby, Rupert) honestly felt kinda surreal to me.  It was like I was part of the ONE explicitly not-evil thing in Cerberus.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Cherrypicking is part of Saphra's strategy.  He can't debate otherwise.

So I have begun to notice.

I
find it funny that, from my first post in this thread, and as far as I
am aware, my first interaction with Saphra at all, he decides that I'm a
paragon.Simply from a comment analyzing the possible motivations and
implications of a somewhat logically questionable dodge-the-question
from TIM.

Right and you're a real pro-human Renegade, isn't that right? No wait, you're a Paragade. Is that closer? Maybe I don't care. In fact, I don't.

I still see a really dumb reason to blow up the Collector base.

Oh
no! Humans might become the most powerful race in the galaxy! I can't
let that happen because... I don't know why but I just can't! I better
blow this base up so that we are thrust into war with the Reapers
without a snowball's chance in hell. THAT WILL FIX THINGS!

Or...maybe I don't trust TIM farther than I can throw him and don't believe for an instant he wants to further humanity's progress as much as his own seat of power, regardless of where that takes him.  Or I think the effects of indoctrination aren't worth the risk.  Or one of many other valid reasons that have been listed a million times whenever the "blow up the base or not" discussion comes up.  This is just a stupid strawman argument.  

Modifié par Random Geth, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:17 .