1482 réponses à ce sujet

[JGray]

Just a small point. It has been said several times in this interesting debate that Cerberus is funded by the Alliance. It isn't. Cerberus is funded partially through the front corporations it has set up and partially by independent donors.

[MisterJB]

Lord Aesir wrote...
That's different then.  C-Sec is not an arm of the turian hierarchy and has the right to arrest them.  They do not have the right to beat alliance information out of them.  Doing so would be illegal and if Palin is half as dedicated to doing things by the book as he was in ME1, unlikely to happen.

The fact that the team was Turian-exclusive seems to make it obvious, no?

[Poison_Berrie]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Then you are either not a very nice person or you didn't read very deeply and/or throughly and/or didn't think about it very hard.

I looked several things over, but I found little I didn't already know. None of which struck me as especially terrible.
I might have not seen those things that are irrevocably terrible and unforgivable. 

Saphra Deden wrote...

I didn't ignore anything. Just because you say think TIM is selfish bastard doesn't mean he is.

You did ignore his point by making it out as if he claimed that Cerberus was against humanity.
He clearly indicated that he found his (TIM) deflections indicative of his own hunger for power.

[ParagonForLife]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Cherrypicking is part of Saphra's strategy.  He can't debate otherwise.

So I have begun to notice.

I find it funny that, from my first post in this thread, and as far as I am aware, my first interaction with Saphra at all, he decides that I'm a paragon.Simply from a comment analyzing the possible motivations and implications of a somewhat logically questionable dodge-the-question from TIM.

Right and you're a real pro-human Renegade, isn't that right? No wait, you're a Paragade. Is that closer? Maybe I don't care. In fact, I don't.

I still see a really dumb reason to blow up the Collector base.

Oh no! Humans might become the most powerful race in the galaxy! I can't let that happen because... I don't know why but I just can't! I better blow this base up so that we are thrust into war with the Reapers without a snowball's chance in hell. THAT WILL FIX THINGS!

um do you even listen to what the reapers say.....they want us to use there tech....by using there tech we proceed down the path they wish us too and also you keep saying "humans" its not humans its Cerberus Cerberus Cerberus.....not humanity cerberus and how will knowing how to make a reaper be usefull.....guys guys I got a great idea!!!
What is it!!!
Lets become reapers!!!!!
YEA because being diffrent is scary 
YEA lets kill millions of humans to make a reaper to use agianst the reapers while the reapers reap humans to make more reapers we will reap humans also to make reapers to fight agianst the reapers who are reaping us so we reap ourselfs to stop the reapers from reaping us 
No Logic there 

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:19 .

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

It's just sad to watch. It's also sad to see organizations like Cerberus perpetuate the cycle.

What's really sad is people who complain about it whilst displaying the same barbaric tendencies themselves.

Why do I always get the feeling that most of us want the same thing, but for some reason can't agree on the way to get there?

[bleetman]

Random Geth wrote...

Reviving Shep and creating the SR-2, not to mention the SR-2's crew (such as Kelly, Ken&Gabby, Rupert) honestly felt kinda surreal to me.  It was like I was part of the ONE explicitly not-evil thing in Cerberus.

And, coincidentally, the only Cerberus operation we're actively shown that doesn't end in utter disaster and/or only served to make matters worse.

Hell, the Lazurus project ended with the facility obliterated and all but two personnel lost. And that was a successful operaton.

[Adragalus]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

Right. Deliberately ignore my point about that quote suggesting that TIM is out more for his own gains than he is for the overall good of humanity, and instead interpret it as me saying "Cerberus hates humanity," which is an almost amusingly large logical discrepancy.

That's cherrypicking my points for ya. You conceited, hypocritical Cerberus fanboy.

I didn't ignore anything. Just because you say think TIM is selfish bastard doesn't mean he is.

To be honest, I really disagree with those responses. You drastically misconstrued an analysis that said, in short, "TIM dodged the question, looked suspicious, and implied that he's not all about the 'oh Cerberus doesn't want Cerberus dominance, Cerberus wants human dominance.'" The point of my post was not "TIM is a selfish bastard." The point was "TIMs motives are increasingly questionable and Cerberus-centric, exclusively so. Claiming that you didn't ignore anything just by suggesting that the selfish bastard descriptor was an opinion of mine (which it is) does nothing to disprove or even ADDRESS my points.

posted by Saphra Deden...
I don't see anything wrong with what TIM said at the end of Mass Effect 2. It is all perfectly in line with what he has stated from the begining Cerberus is about. 

Uh, no it isn't. He specifically says things to the effect of "Cerberus is good because we're the only ones doing anything about the Collectors, all we want is to make sure tha humanity isn't stomped on by the other Council races, etc." By the end, his mask/demeanor/attitude of altruism and willingness to give Shepard latitude has utterly come off. He's all-but-screaming at Shepard. I mean, come on... "Cerberus IS humanity?" Coming from the commander of a few hundred-strong rogue military group/terrorist organization? So easy to believe that he really is for ALL of humanity as a whole, isn't it? 

Modifié par Adragalus, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:26 .

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

It's just sad to watch. It's also sad to see organizations like Cerberus perpetuate the cycle.

What's really sad is people who complain about it whilst displaying the same barbaric tendencies themselves.

At least they can regret it and try to be better on reflection. That's proof that they're at least trying to rise above their base instincts which is more than you can say for other people.

[ParagonForLife]

Adragalus wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

Right. Deliberately ignore my point about that quote suggesting that TIM is out more for his own gains than he is for the overall good of humanity, and instead interpret it as me saying "Cerberus hates humanity," which is an almost amusingly large logical discrepancy.

That's cherrypicking my points for ya. You conceited, hypocritical Cerberus fanboy.

I didn't ignore anything. Just because you say think TIM is selfish bastard doesn't mean he is.

To be honest, I really disagree with those responses. You drastically misconstrued an analysis that said, in short, "TIM dodged the question, looked suspicious, and implied that he's not all about the 'oh Cerberus doesn't want Cerberus dominance, Cerberus wants human dominance.'" The point of my post was not "TIM is a selfish bastard." The point was "TIMs motives are increasingly questionable and Cerberus-centric, exclusively so. Claiming that you didn't ignore anything just by suggesting that the selfish bastard descriptor was an opinion of mine (which it is) does nothing to disprove or even ADDRESS my points.

posted by Saphra Deden...
I don't see anything wrong with what TIM said at the end of Mass Effect 2. It is all perfectly in line with what he has stated from the begining Cerberus is about. 

Uh, no it isn't. He specifically says things to the effect of "Cerberus is good because we're the only ones doing anything about the Collectors, all we want is to make sure tha humanity isn't stomped on by the other Council races, etc." 
 I mean, come on... "Cerberus IS humanity?" Coming from the commander of a few hundred-strong rogue military group/terrorist organization? So easy to believe that he really is for ALL of humanity as a whole, isn't it? 

not to mention the fact that he thinks hes a god he thinks that only he is fit to decide what is best for humanity and only he is wise enough to know whats best for us

[AlexXIV]

ParagonForLife wrote...
 not to mention the fact that he thinks hes a god he thinks that only he is fit to decide what is best for humanity and only he is wise enough to know whats best for us

Well if you start out as nobody and become the most infamous person of the galaxy then you'd also think that you must be special. After all many ME players do that. Even though they are only playing a video game.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:23 .

[Adragalus]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Cherrypicking is part of Saphra's strategy.  He can't debate otherwise.

So I have begun to notice.

I find it funny that, from my first post in this thread, and as far as I am aware, my first interaction with Saphra at all, he decides that I'm a paragon.Simply from a comment analyzing the possible motivations and implications of a somewhat logically questionable dodge-the-question from TIM.

Right and you're a real pro-human Renegade, isn't that right? No wait, you're a Paragade. Is that closer? Maybe I don't care. In fact, I don't.

I still see a really dumb reason to blow up the Collector base.

Oh no! Humans might become the most powerful race in the galaxy! I can't let that happen because... I don't know why but I just can't! I better blow this base up so that we are thrust into war with the Reapers without a snowball's chance in hell. THAT WILL FIX THINGS!

I never said what I was, and for good reason, I see. No matter what my stance, you would find some way to make it appear as if I was false/ignorant/idealistic.

That isn't even the point here. Whether or not the base was destroyed changes NOTHING about what I said. We can rightfully assume that TIM feels the same way about the base if it is saved. "Now we can use the technology from this base to secure human dominance in the galaxy, against the Reapers and beyond!"

Human. DOMINANCE. Not right-minded, pragmatic goals such as human security, human safety, human interests, human equality, et bloody cetera. Dominance. THAT'S my issue. Not TIMs "selfish bastardism," not saving the base or destroying it, not your much-maligned Paragade. 

Howsabout we leave my morality meter strategy out of this, and focus on the logical and ethical issues at hand, hmm?

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Except with the council it is more of a gray area with both good and bad.

If you can see good in the Council then you can see good in Cerberus.

The Council pursues the benefit of all it's members.  Cerberus pursues the benefit of a human supremist galaxy at the expense of everyone else.  The first desires to maintain the safety and stability of it's member states, sometimes through disreputable means.  The second desires to tear down the other species and elevate their own above everyone all else almost always using disrepuable means.

If you can see good in Cerberus, you can see good in the council.  Unless of course you don't want to.

[ParagonForLife]

AlexXIV wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...
 not to mention the fact that he thinks hes a god he thinks that only he is fit to decide what is best for humanity and only he is wise enough to know whats best for us

Well if you start out as nobody and become the most infamous person of the galaxy then you'd also think that you must be special. After all many ME players do that. Even though they are only playing a video game.

I dont think anyone is a nobody I try and treat all people no matter who they are with the same respect I whould think the fact that the Illusive man rose from a low rank in the alliance to power means he should want to better things for others he should know what its like to suffer and want to do his part to cause as little of it as possible but he doesnt he thinks that as long as he reaches his goals any loss along the way is fine

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:28 .

[TheCreeper]

Personally TIM's "Cerberus is humanity!" line makes me think he wants to rule humanity, not empower the Alliance.

[Heimdall]

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That's different then.  C-Sec is not an arm of the turian hierarchy and has the right to arrest them.  They do not have the right to beat alliance information out of them.  Doing so would be illegal and if Palin is half as dedicated to doing things by the book as he was in ME1, unlikely to happen.

The fact that the team was Turian-exclusive seems to make it obvious, no?

The team was turian exclusive to avoid the human agents Cerberus likely had in C-sec, the same reason the alliance had to be cut out of the loop.

[AlexXIV]

ParagonForLife wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...
 not to mention the fact that he thinks hes a god he thinks that only he is fit to decide what is best for humanity and only he is wise enough to know whats best for us

Well if you start out as nobody and become the most infamous person of the galaxy then you'd also think that you must be special. After all many ME players do that. Even though they are only playing a video game.

I dont think anyone is a nobody I try and treat all people no matter who they are with the same respect I whould think the fact that the Illusive man rose from a low rank in the alliance to power means he should want to better things for others he should know what its like to suffer and want to do his part to cause as little of it as possible but he doesnt he thinks that as long as he reaches his goals any loss along the way is fine

If you treat all people the same way you will do some of them injustice. Because people are not the same. Some matter more, some less. Some are replacable rather easy, some are next to unreplacable. Just look at Shepard and his/her crew. If you treat everyone alike why do you look for the best for the job?

[ParagonForLife]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Council pursues the benefit of all it's members.

Right. Remember that whole Collector thing? That was a "human problem".

Case closed.

because its something called being a Sovereign the alliance wants people to take it serrious so really do you think high ranking alliance officals go OMG guys help us out here no...its probally only Sheppard and Anderson and a few others 

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Council pursues the benefit of all it's members.

Right. Remember that whole Collector thing? That was a "human problem".

Case closed.

Humanity as it is represented by the Systems Alliance is a member of the council.  Those humans flatly fall outside their that membership.  In fact they only settled in the terminus systems because they would be outsde that jurisditction.

Please tell me you aren't really so dense this needs to be explained to you?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:33 .

[Adragalus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Except with the council it is more of a gray area with both good and bad.

If you can see good in the Council then you can see good in Cerberus.

The Council pursues the benefit of all it's members.  Cerberus pursues the benefit of a human supremist galaxy at the expense of everyone else.  The first desires to maintain the safety and stability of it's member states, sometimes through disreputable means.  The second desires to tear down the other species and elevate their own above everyone all else almost always using disrepuable means.

If you can see good in Cerberus, you can see good in the council.  Unless of course you don't want to.

And, of course, unless you wish to allow blind, near-omnicidal consequentialism to continue unchecked until your organization that was allegedly created in order to ensure human security, safety, and influence ends up apparently trying to enslave a galaxy-razing fleet of thousands of living starships that destroyed the entire Prothean Empire. 

At some point, those who believe that the ends justify the means really need to take a step back and see what they did to get to that point. Sometimes, it's not worth it. And sometimes, that bid for human dominance ends up extinguishing every sentient being in the galaxy.

But hey, galatic dominance. If Cerberus can't have it, no one can, right? 

[ParagonForLife]

AlexXIV wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...
 not to mention the fact that he thinks hes a god he thinks that only he is fit to decide what is best for humanity and only he is wise enough to know whats best for us

Well if you start out as nobody and become the most infamous person of the galaxy then you'd also think that you must be special. After all many ME players do that. Even though they are only playing a video game.

I dont think anyone is a nobody I try and treat all people no matter who they are with the same respect I whould think the fact that the Illusive man rose from a low rank in the alliance to power means he should want to better things for others he should know what its like to suffer and want to do his part to cause as little of it as possible but he doesnt he thinks that as long as he reaches his goals any loss along the way is fine

If you treat all people the same way you will do some of them injustice. Because people are not the same. Some matter more, some less. Some are replacable rather easy, some are next to unreplacable. Just look at Shepard and his/her crew. If you treat everyone alike why do you look for the best for the job?

I dont think anyone matters more or less then anyone else we all have potential 

[MisterJB]

Lord Aesir wrote...
 The team was turian exclusive to avoid the human agents Cerberus likely had in C-sec, the same reason the alliance had to be cut out of the loop.

Asari, salarians?