1482 réponses à ce sujet

[KotorEffect3]

MisterJB wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
 Shepard never would have accomplished what he did without the aide of aliens.

Your point being?
You can be pro-human without being anti-alien. There is nothing wrong with cooperating with the aliens, we can learn a lot from them. We just have to always remember that they do not have our best interests in minds.

 

You don't have to be pro-cerberus to be pro-human.  In fact you can still be anti-cerberus and pro-human.  Look at Ash she hates cerberus.

[Aimi]

MisterJB wrote...

However, many people seem to defend this system. Then why stand against a future more favorable to humans? Who says that, just because humans are in power, the other species will suddenly be destroyed or enslaved?

The same reason the other species were destroyed or enslaved under the asari, salarians, and turians? Humanity isn't anything special with regards to morality, the ability to govern well, etc. Geniuses, idiots.

In international relations theory, hegemonic solutions for peace are almost always a Good Thing. They tend to work better than most other solutions, at any rate, especially when the hegemony is exercised with a modicum of responsibility and a sense of the rule of law (see e.g. Europe post-Napoleon, pre-1848). In simplest terms, restricting the Council's decision-making membership to only the races that are the 'Great Powers', so to speak, of the galaxy, is simply codifying something that's been around in human diplomatic history for centuries. Indeed, the Paragon Council - humans, asari, salarians, turians - would seem to mirror, albeit distantly, the four Great Powers of Europe of the eighteenth century (Great Britain, France, the Habsburg Empire, and Russia, played by the asari, turians, salarians, and humans respectively, although the similes really don't go very far).

Single-hegemon systems can work, yes. Look at the history of East Asia, for instance, which effectively revolved around the Chinese empire for two millennia as a single hegemon with no real rivals. The extent to which this system was able to satisfy all powers' security needs obviously varied from period to period, but it never went out of whack and destroyed itself (as the European "balance of power" system did in the late eighteenth century). But for humanity to play the Chinese role, it would have to be able to possess the kind of power that would make it a single hegemon. Realistically, there's no chance in hell that it can do that, even in the MEverse, which accelerated human technological and military development to a rather surprising degree. You can't be King S*** when you don't even have the second largest space navy in the galaxy. For a human-hegemonic galactic system to work, you'd need something like Star Wars, where humanity easily makes up a plurality (if not an outright majority) of the population of the civilized galaxy.

As things are, I have only played a very few Renegade Sheps with human-run Councils, and even those are for the variety, not the role-playing plausibility. I just can't seriously think that replacing the Council will work out in the long run. It's just too much of a gross overreach.

[ABCoLD]

So, just to pull an example out of the bag... Cerberus was morally and ethically right to detonate a ship over a human colony attempting to create biotic children? Knowing full well this would cause the deaths of the crew and multiple birth defects and potentially cancer?

I'm not going to argue the rest right now. I want to see the justification for this.

[MisterJB]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...
1. Humans are now on the council.
2. Humans now have Spectres.
If as you say Cerberus is the same as the council then why not just have things stay the same?

Collectors kidnap humans.
Human Councillor asks for aid from the Citadel Fleet.
Asari, Turian and Salarian Councillors vote against him, with the most hypocritical excuse ever.
3 to 1, we lose. Nothing happens, Collectors keep abducting humans.

[MisterJB]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
  You don't have to be pro-cerberus to be pro-human.  In fact you can still be anti-cerberus and pro-human.  Look at Ash she hates cerberus.

Yes, but Ashley is Alliance, an organization more interested in obeying the aliens than helping humans.

[JGray]

Calibration Master wrote...

Jep, sounds like the perfect description of the Asari+Salarian+Turian Council.  They give their own species the best territory and resources, while we humans have to settle the unstable regions in the Attican Traverse. And when human colonies get attacked, the Council refuses to help us. Instead, they blame us humans for being so dumb to settle in the Traverse. "Humanity was well aware of the risks", the smug Asari councilor says.

I suspect this has more to do with the fact that the other governments got to most of the worlds within council space first. There likely aren't a lot of worlds they could give the Alliance without displacing populations that have been there for decades or centuries.

A lot of people seem to be using the 'the other guys do it, so its alright if we do, too' argument. I realize that politics can be sophmoric but I had no idea that the galaxy revolved at the level of a grade school playground.

We're very lucky humanity is willing to jump off bridges just because the other kids do.

[Calibration Master]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

1. Humans are now on the council.
2. Humans now have Spectres.

If as you say Cerberus is the same as the council then why not just have things stay the same?

1. And yet the human councilor constandly gets stone-walled by the other 3 councilors. So far a human in the council has given us nothing but trouble.

2. Only 1 Spectre, who gets casted aside after saving the Citadel from Saren and Sovereign. Sure, Shepard can get "Spectre reinstatement", but only if Shepard promises to stay under the radar in Citadel space and keeps his nose out of Council business. Yeah, not falling for that, stupid Council. <_<

Modifié par Calibration Master, 23 janvier 2012 - 01:48 .

[Skullheart]

Back in ME1. The alliance colonies are supposed to be under citadel defense. Eden prime was attacked. The Council solution: Shepard is now a Spectre and all this is a human problem now.

[Aimi]

MisterJB wrote...

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...
1. Humans are now on the council.
2. Humans now have Spectres.
If as you say Cerberus is the same as the council then why not just have things stay the same?

Collectors kidnap humans.
Human Councillor asks for aid from the Citadel Fleet.
Asari, Turian and Salarian Councillors vote against him, with the most hypocritical excuse ever.
3 to 1, we lose. Nothing happens, Collectors keep abducting humans.

How is stating that the affected colonies are outside Citadel Space hypocrisy? This isn't "Team Citadel: Galactic Police".

[KotorEffect3]

MisterJB wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
  You don't have to be pro-cerberus to be pro-human.  In fact you can still be anti-cerberus and pro-human.  Look at Ash she hates cerberus.

Yes, but Ashley is Alliance, an organization more interested in obeying the aliens than helping humans.

You must have not been paying much attention in ME 1 then.

[OmegaBlue0231]

MisterJB wrote...

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...
1. Humans are now on the council.
2. Humans now have Spectres.
If as you say Cerberus is the same as the council then why not just have things stay the same?

Collectors kidnap humans.
Human Councillor asks for aid from the Citadel Fleet.
Asari, Turian and Salarian Councillors vote against him, with the most hypocritical excuse ever.
3 to 1, we lose. Nothing happens, Collectors keep abducting humans.

If you chose right Shep got reinstated as a Spectre and allowed to investigate.

[JGray]

daqs wrote...

Indeed, the Paragon Council - humans, asari, salarians, turians - would seem to mirror, albeit distantly, the four Great Powers of Europe of the eighteenth century (Great Britain, France, the Habsburg Empire, and Russia, played by the asari, turians, salarians, and humans respectively, although the similes really don't go very far).

I've always thought the Council was more akin the the UN Security Council. A small group of powerful nations within a body of larger nations that has the ability to veto anything not in their direct interest. The end result being, nothing gets done that one of those nations does not like.

[ABCoLD]

I am amused by how this has devolved from a discussion about the morality of Cerberus to anything but the morality of Cerberus. Would anyone like to go back to the original discussion?

[Kaiser Shepard]

jreezy wrote...

JGray wrote...
I'm also leaving out Project Overlord, since the ethics of experimenting on deactivated geth are gray and there's no sign that the Illusive Man or Cerberus were aware of the use of an autistic man in the experiment.

Riiight.

Did you even try to read or listen to the dialogue?

[KotorEffect3]

Well the collectors were hitting colonies in the terminus systems which were outside of both alliance and citadel juristiction. Now if they were hitting colonies that were in alliance and citadel space then I am all for raising hell with the council. But honestly the collectors were 't really a threat to to anyone but the terminous colonies.

[Calibration Master]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...
1. Humans are now on the council.
2. Humans now have Spectres.
If as you say Cerberus is the same as the council then why not just have things stay the same?

Collectors kidnap humans.
Human Councillor asks for aid from the Citadel Fleet.
Asari, Turian and Salarian Councillors vote against him, with the most hypocritical excuse ever.
3 to 1, we lose. Nothing happens, Collectors keep abducting humans.

If you chose right Shep got reinstated as a Spectre and allowed to investigate.

The "Spectre resinstatement" is just a hoax. I don't get it that people are actually so blind to fall for it.

Spectre-status means NOTHING in the Terminus system, where Shepard's investigation takes place during ME2. And Shepard ONLY gets "Spectre reinstament" if he/she promises to stay away from the Council and their business.

[TheCreeper]

Cerberus does good things and bad things, but everything it does is in support of a agenda I strongly disagreed with.

[Armass81]

Calibration Master wrote...

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...
1. Humans are now on the council.
2. Humans now have Spectres.
If as you say Cerberus is the same as the council then why not just have things stay the same?

Collectors kidnap humans.
Human Councillor asks for aid from the Citadel Fleet.
Asari, Turian and Salarian Councillors vote against him, with the most hypocritical excuse ever.
3 to 1, we lose. Nothing happens, Collectors keep abducting humans.

If you chose right Shep got reinstated as a Spectre and allowed to investigate.

The "Spectre resinstatement" is just a hoax. I don't get it that people are actually so blind to fall for it.

Spectre-status means NOTHING in the Terminus system, where Shepard's investigation takes place during ME2. And Shepard ONLY gets "Spectre reinstament" if he/she promises to stay away from the Council and their business.

Do you think USA would grand you the powers of the CIA and want you to operate within their country if they knew you were now part of Al-Qaida?

The council appointing Shepard back to spectres is quite remarkable if you think about it. They even give him a change to come back afterwards. Thats quite merciful. Altough the alliance would probably still prosecute him...

Consider this: He just appears out of nowhere and is now part of a known terrorist organization... I mean what would you do?

Modifié par Armass81, 23 janvier 2012 - 02:02 .

[Aimi]

JGray wrote...

daqs wrote...

Indeed, the Paragon Council - humans, asari, salarians, turians - would seem to mirror, albeit distantly, the four Great Powers of Europe of the eighteenth century (Great Britain, France, the Habsburg Empire, and Russia, played by the asari, turians, salarians, and humans respectively, although the similes really don't go very far).

I've always thought the Council was more akin the the UN Security Council. A small group of powerful nations within a body of larger nations that has the ability to veto anything not in their direct interest. The end result being, nothing gets done that one of those nations does not like.

The Security Council's supposed to work like that in theory, but in practice it's just a forum for policy gridlock, especially since the UN itself is rarely empowered to do anything meaningful. The UNSC also permits associate members in on a rotating basis, unlike the Citadel Council.

By contrast, the Great Powers, on their good days, pretty much ignored the demands of smaller powers, while still working to make sure that their needs were at least not neglected, so long as those needs didn't conflict with those of a larger community. They also, notably, got things done. The Congress of Vienna, for example, is probably the most successful series of diplomatic meetings in history.

---

Anyway. Cerberus. Getting back on track.

[MisterJB]

daqs wrote...
How is stating that the affected colonies are outside Citadel Space hypocrisy? This isn't "Team Citadel: Galactic Police".

Not that one. The "Having a seat on the Council implies that a species can deal with their problems and also help others with theirs".
Right, so now, humans have a problem. Some help would be nice.

However, we do agree on one thing. Saving the Council will, eventually, work out better for humanity. Expecially considering that all the humans appear to have done in the Renegade ending is install themselves on the Citadel and expect the other races to listen to them just because instead of trying to make ourselves essential to the former Council races.

 

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...
If you chose right Shep got reinstated as a Spectre and allowed to investigate.

Spectre status means nothing on the Terminus System since they don't recognize the authority of the Council.
So basically, the Council does nothing but you want them to receive credit for stopping the Collectors?

KotorEffect3 wrote...
You must have not been paying much attention in ME 1 then.

So, did the Alliance not sign the Treaty of Farixen, for example?

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 janvier 2012 - 02:01 .

[LTiberious]

One more thing.

Cerberus is not willing to enslave other races. It wants to make Humans dominant in the galaxy. Which is a great idea.

[Kid Buu]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

jreezy wrote...

JGray wrote...
I'm also leaving out Project Overlord, since the ethics of experimenting on deactivated geth are gray and there's no sign that the Illusive Man or Cerberus were aware of the use of an autistic man in the experiment.

Riiight.

Did you even try to read or listen to the dialogue?

Lmao

[Kid Buu]

LTiberious wrote...

One more thing.

Cerberus is not willing to enslave other races. It wants to make Humans dominant in the galaxy. Which is a great idea.

Great? How?

[GodWood]

JGray wrote...
* Assassinated a Pope with "pro-alien" leanings.

Well this certainly needs some context.

Said 'pro-alien' pope was hampering relations with the salarians because he was condemning them for the actions against the krogans.

Plus he's the pope! The leader of an organized institution of rapists! Of course he needed to die.

JGray wrote...
* The murder of Liselle, the daughter of Aria T'Loak.

Why is this bad?