1482 réponses à ce sujet

[KotorEffect3]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I see this thread is still going strong.

Edit: Now people are whining about the script!? You guys are simply unbelievable! 

Some people always whine about the script,  they like to think of themselves as literary experts.

[Jagri]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jagri wrote...

I often made this out to be a prime example of terrorism.

Too bad it isn't terrorism.

Nothing to back your words I see? Let me break it down for you.

1) Two world leaders are assassinated.

2) Resulted assassination change political leadership, pushing military parliament regarding System Alliance, and provides funding towards Cerberus shell companies.

3) Now why would two respective governments who opposed or are at least conflicted when it came to passing such acts suddenly change their view after a assassination to support them? Perhaps the outcry and fear of the general public? Two world leaders are dead in a matter of minutes during a peace conference. The symbols of two world powers slaughtered before cameras.

4) Now you tell me did Cerberus buy out both respective countries next in line and their representives or did they use that public panic and fear to achieve their objectives? Tell me which method would be more effective.

Modifié par Jagri, 27 janvier 2012 - 03:30 .

[InHarmsWay]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jagri wrote...

1) Two world leaders are assassinated.

Not terrorism.

2) Resulted assassination change political leadership, pushing military parliament regarding System Alliance, and provides funding towards Cerberus shell companies.

This doesn't make it terrorism either.

3) Now why would two respective governments who opposed or are at least conflicted when it came to passing such acts suddenly change their view after a assassination to support them? Perhaps the outcry and fear of the general public? Two world leaders are dead in a matter of minutes during a peace conference. The symbols of two world powers slaughtered before cameras.

Sounds like you are speculating. You know why the government might change its stance? The reason might be that the previous opponents of that direciton are now removed from power. Politics in the US changed aftere the Titanic sank because prominent people who had influence went down on it. Was the Ice Berg a terrorist?

4) Now you tell me did Cerberus buy out both respective countries next in line and their representives or did they use that public panic and fear to achieve their objectives? Tell me which method would be more effective.

It is much easier to control people who are in your pocket than it is to control the billions and billions of members of the public.

You have a poor understanding of the word terrorism.
ter·ror·ism   [ter-uh-riz-uhm] Show IPA noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 27 janvier 2012 - 03:56 .

[Jagri]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jagri wrote...

1) Two world leaders are assassinated.

Not terrorism.

2) Resulted assassination change political leadership, pushing military parliament regarding System Alliance, and provides funding towards Cerberus shell companies.

This doesn't make it terrorism either.

3) Now why would two respective governments who opposed or are at least conflicted when it came to passing such acts suddenly change their view after a assassination to support them? Perhaps the outcry and fear of the general public? Two world leaders are dead in a matter of minutes during a peace conference. The symbols of two world powers slaughtered before cameras.

Sounds like you are speculating. You know why the government might change its stance? The reason might be that the previous opponents of that direciton are now removed from power. Politics in the US changed aftere the Titanic sank because prominent people who had influence went down on it. Was the Ice Berg a terrorist?

4) Now you tell me did Cerberus buy out both respective countries next in line and their representives or did they use that public panic and fear to achieve their objectives? Tell me which method would be more effective.

It is much easier to control people who are in your pocket than it is to control the billions and billions of members of the public.

This is a break down Saphra the points are made to get your mind on track rather then scream out "Terrorism!" 

Now point 3 and 4 would be the meat of the subject.

3) Ice Berg isn't a organization or a living thing who would benefit from the deaths of people of influence. Nor was it sent out to kill anyone it just was there.

4) What is the most effective way to control people? Ding Ding Fear! Terror! Or wait did Cerberus get people to respect them? Can't respect what you don't know but you can surely fear the unknown. Even if Cerberus was to buy out or control the next in line and its respresentives there is no evidence to support it. Its more logical to assume fear and public out cry help pass these acts.

Modifié par Jagri, 27 janvier 2012 - 04:07 .

[Jagri]

I guess I would have to give up on keeping your mind on track when your sole focus is "I am right!" 

I paint this picture again. On live tv before the entire world two of the most powerful world leaders are killed during a peace conference. Now tell me Sephra would that act not scare people would not put fear into the hearts of people? Come on say no! Its not like one man can trigger a war doing things like that. (Hint Hint WWI: Of course there is other factors but that was the spark)

Terrorism doesn't need anyone to claim responsibility for the act itself. If your logic was applied then any embassy bombing wouldn't be a terrorist act if no one claimed doing it.

Oh yes sure they brided both China's and America's second in command and their respective representives to pass bills. Its logical to assume maybe they had a few people in there pocket but not everyone. Even then those people who weren't in their pocket would vote favorable for any act if the public was crying out for it. Hack and those who are Cerberus's pockets could easly give emotinal speeches about we need to do more to protect the people and such. Who could say anything against that after what had taken place?

Fear and hate have proven easier to sway the minds of man then greed any day. Fact at this point I would think Cerberus down right stupid if they didn't take advantage of such methods. It would save them time, money, and resources and still allow them to be a shadow organization.

Modifié par Jagri, 27 janvier 2012 - 04:31 .

[Jagri]

Saphra Deden wrote...
No, my focus is "Is that terrorism or not?" It's not. 

Cerberus already falls under the definations outlined by several organizations. Its just the gritty details people get hung up on.

We're people scared when Kennedy was assassinated? How about when the attempt was made on Ronald Reagan?

People would be shocked, not scared, by some random lunatic gunning down a politician.

People were not scared by the attack on Gabrielle Giffords.

Of course people were scared when Kennedy was assassinated! That was during the Cold War and god forbid if it was the Russian's who did it. Could have pushed us into nuclear conflict. Now you tell me what was the results of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria? That one is recent history but how about Julius Caesar? The flame to spark wars and a leader to mark the fall of a empire.

Yeah it does. You can't coerce or threaten without making your demands known and you can't make your demands known without taking responsibility.

Cerberus never does that.

Several terrorist organizations don't make demands ether. These organizations can aquire their political goals or demands simply by forcing the government to act in a way that would benefit them. Cerberus would be one to use this method but it doesn't stop it from being a terrorist act.

They don't need everyone, just the right people in the right place. Clearly the assassination was to get those people into the right place and not to cause fear.

Not cause fear? Killing two presidents in public... Right... So why didn't they make it look like a accident? Poison them in their own respective countries? Bomb the cars they were driving? This was a clear and public act of extreme violence to provoke people. Not to silently quiet leadership who didn't fellow Cerberus's plan.

[Jagri]

Saphra Deden wrote... Not that I've seen.

Look up terrorism as you browse through the web there is more then enough examples Cerberus falls under to drown people.

They were not scared, they were in mourning and angry.

With the possiable chance of nuclear war breaking out if the Russian's were involed with his death? If people don't fear the possiability of nuclear war then what they hack do they fear Saphra?

Nor are they terrorists.

Under international law they are put into the catogory. Do look it up sometime some just arn't as good as Cerberus when it comes to covering their tracks.

That would have been more time-consuming and intricate as well as harder to pull off?

A lunatic with a gun is a lot simpler.

Much simpler method to spark public out cry too. Public and bloody.

[RiouHotaru]

You know, I've scanned this entire thread and wondered why Zulu's much maligned UNC: Colony of the Dead ME1 sidequest hasn't come up.

It's specifically stated Cerberus is responsible for that.

[Seboist]

From what I gather there's an unstated link between "colony of the dead" and that one mission where the miners get husked by unearthing Dragon's teeth(which Exogeni extracts).

Modifié par Seboist, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:31 .

[Jagri]

Saphra Deden wrote...
They feared Nuclear War constantly all-through-out the cold war, but it wasn't the immediate reaction to Kennedy's death.

The death of leadership cannot be consider a spark to war? Please refere to back to what sparked WW1

Fine, whatever. When you have proof come and find me.

In the meantime I'm not going to argue with a conspiracy theorist.

Aye and you have no evidence ether however I have circumstantial evidence and have seen the pattern in this action which has been repeated in history before. That and it takes advantage of the circumstances to benefit Cerberus to its fullest. Yours would suggest a network the compromised the leadership of two world powers which is not noted by the Shadow Broker and would cost quite a bit more then the method I believe was used which would gain them much more.

Further more my method also would limit Cerberus's interaction with governments thus keeping more in the shadows but still influencing their actions.

Modifié par Jagri, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:52 .

[RiouHotaru]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

You know, I've scanned this entire thread and wondered why Zulu's much maligned UNC: Colony of the Dead ME1 sidequest hasn't come up.

It's specifically stated Cerberus is responsible for that.

I'm pretty sure it has been brought up but the reason it never sticks is because it is a jumbled mess.

The logs which point you to the quest state something to the effect of, "I don't trust this Cerberus group. They collected several samples from us."

You then go to the colony and find it overrun with husks. A text block then comes up and blames Cerberus even though nothing you heard about the colony or found there implicates them beyond the fact that they were given something by the scientists there.

Then in ME2 even when you bring it up to Miranda all she says is, "the husks were already dead".

Now, her statement there is consistent with ME1: that Cerberus recieved samples. It would seem those samples were husks and apparently Cerberus experimenting on husks is horrible.

You do realize that her stating "The husks were already dead" doesn't absolve Cerberus of their guilt.  They were still responsible (if perhaps not directly) for the annhilation of an entire colony.

Also Saph, reading this thread, I'm a tad disappointed that you (and a few others) are falling right back into Zulu's old ways of treating Paragon as hopelessly naive goody two-shoes (which couldn't be further from the truth), or trying to use your argument for the keeping of the Collector Base as the sole rational option.

We had these discussions back when the game was just out and they didn't get anywhere.  Both sides (Paragon and Renegade) had equally valid reasons for their decisions.  Your choice is no more right, or wrong, than mine.

[Jagri]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Aye and you have no evidence ether however I have circumstantial evidence...

No, you don't even have that. You just speculate that maybe fear resulted from this act and then conclude that this was what Cerberus wanted and planned all along.

You're making assumptions.

Spread the TROOF brother!

This is pointless... You make wild speculations while I trace patterns, methods, and goals. What one would need to do to make the greatest gain with minimal loss and is in keeping with a shadow organization. That and my theory fellows a practical and logical conclusion. Those posed by yourself falter and sound unreason and at times complete ignores the evidence presented.

Modifié par Jagri, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:10 .

[Jagri]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jagri wrote...

This is pointless... You make wild speculations while I trace patterns, methods, and goals.

Oh good lord. It's like I'm on ATS again.

Oh well Saphra theory is only speculation at best. If you ever decide to jump off a tall building your logic should save you from gravity cause well its only speculation!

Modifié par Jagri, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:14 .

[RiouHotaru]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, they weren't. If all Cerberus did was pick up some samples that Exo-Geni was experimenting with then they aren't guilty of anything except perhaps smuggling.

They had nothing to do with the colony being destroyed. They have nothing to feel guilty about.

...So, despite the game clearly stating such, you insist this is not the case.  Well, I respect your opinion, but I treat the game's statement of fact (both in ME1 and 2) as being more valid than your opinion, regretfully.

Saphra Deden wrote... 

You are what you are and I treat you as such.

...Really?  REALLY?  Man I can see why folks are abandoning ship.  I actually stated, quite plainly, that your view is as equally valid as mine.  I'm not speaking down to you, not diminishing you or your views, and that's the response I get?