1482 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Is this suppose to win me over? I don't think your view is as equally valid as mine. At least not on most issues. On this specific issue (Colony of the Dead) I might say that your stance on it IS equally valid.

However if you want to bring up something like say, the Collector base, I will not grant say that both views are valid.

Except on the issue of the Collector Base both views ARE valid, same as the issue of the final decision of ME1.  What I can't fathom is why you insist both views can't be valid and that yours (the Renegade choice) has to be the more correct one.

Or do you just dislike the fact that Paragons get a valid choice at all?

[RiouHotaru]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except on the issue of the Collector Base both views ARE valid,

No, they aren't. If you wish to talk about the Collector base go do it in the Collector base thread or make another video on Youtube.

Considering this thread is about Cerberus, discussing the Base here isn't off-topic.

And what do my videos have to do with anything?

[RiouHotaru]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Considering this thread is about Cerberus, discussing the Base here isn't off-topic.

Oh, right. Forgot about that.

Here's how it goes down: when I hear an intelligent, reasonable, logical argument for destroying the Collector base I will admit it. I will then say that is as valid as keeping it. To date I have never heard such an argument.

So I will not just accept "Both are equally valid" on principal.

Here's the fundemental problem:

Zulu did a thread like this one before, and EVERY time an logical argument was presented, it was nitpicked apart and then discarded as "not meeting standards" simply because it didn't fit with his beliefs and views on the issue.  You are, by default, pre-disposed to believing there are no rational Paragon-based reasons for destroying the base, so even if I present an argument that makes sense, you, being more of a Renegade-mindset, won't accept it.  You will Move The Goalposts, just like Zulu did.

If you want to hear a rational argument for destroying the base, you will have you, maybe on principle, be willing to accept a Paragon's mindset in coming to this conclusion.  But you've clearly demonstrated throughout this thread that you have nothing but contempt for the mindset of Paragons, regardless of their actual rationality.  So you're essentially laying down an impossible goal as well.  Even if I could present an intelligent argument, you won't care.

So I have to ponder if it's worth spending the time (or patience) to lay down an argument that I'm almost 90% sure you're simply discard off hand because it's a Paragon's argument.

[RiouHotaru]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, you mean it was addressed point by point to provide a rebuttal of its reasoning and point out its flaws, right?

I wish that were the case.  The problem was that Zulu went about the motions of acknowledging the opposition and presenting counter-arguments, then refused to allow his point of view to be scrunitized the same way.  Basically, he was allowed to point out the flaws in our (by which I mean Paragon's) arguments, but we weren't allowed to point out the flaws in his.

A common problem I see on this board is that somehow acknowledging the possible validity of an opponent's argument equates weakness in your own.

Saphra Deden wrote... 
No, I don't.

If I accept a African's mindset I might understand why it is desirable to stone a woman to death for witchcraft, but that doesn't make that mindset valid.

I never said you had to say it was valid.  I said you had to understand why I would come to that conclusion.  You're doing what you did to the poster earlier regarding TIM's words.  You're jumping the gun and drawing conclusion that doesn't exist.

Saphra Deden wrote... 

Well clearly you know how I operate so I don't understand why you bothered trying to start a discussion with me in the first place.

Because I'd like to have a rational discussion with a Renegade-based player, but the track record hasn't exactly been encouraging of such a discussion.  Hell, the reason I made my videos was to present a rational argument for the actions of Paragons.  Threads on the BSN seem to always degrade into "lol naivety" vs. "lol jackass" with regards to P/R.

[RiouHotaru]

Alright, since you asked:

The choice of either destroying the base or keeping it relies on a single question, which, depending on the answer, determine whether or not you keep the Base, or blow it up:

Can you trust TIM with it?

Before you jump all over this one, this is a legitimate and valid question.  Even if the base had anything worth keeping, you don't have the option to give it to anyone else, or deny TIM the ability to access it.  So regardless of whether or not the Base has useful technology, you have to be willing to trust TIM with it.  If you can't trust TIM, then you cannot in good faith give it to him to use, good intentions on his part or not.

This question is likely the primary reason Paragons blow up the base.  Even if the base were to have technology that could be useful, they cannot trust that TIM will either:

• Not somehow wind up repeating the disaster that was the IFF mission (with the entire team being indocrinated)
• Use the base's technology for the goal of helping save the galaxy from Reaper harvesting

TIM's statements should you blow it up "Securing human dominance for the Reapers and beyond!" and "Cerberus IS humanity" obviously casts some doubt that his goals are anywhere near noble.  I will not deny your argument that the base could indeed have useful technology or intel on the Reapers.  But, with no sure way of guaranteeing that TIM won't possibly use it for something BESIDES stopping the Reapers, and your only alternative being to destroy the base?


Also, I realize that Shepard's arguments for destroying the base in-game boil down to the ethics of using the technology that killed so many people.  While seemingly ridiculous, there is a legitmate reason for that stance.  One of the reason research derived from the unethical experimentation on people (and sometimes animals) is viewed as "tainted", is because by using that research, you are (whether you believe it or not) condoning the method used to attain those results.

Shepard's argument is that, if you use the Base, you're condoning the rather nasty and gruesome death/experimentation of the colonists by the Collectors to obtain your answers.  I won't deny that isn't a somewhat silly argument to make when the fate of the Galaxy is at state, but the Collector Base is just ONE item.  It is, for lack of any other definition, a death factory.  If the Base turns out to offer nothing, then that's valuable time, effort and resources you wasted on something that got you nowhere.

And I don't need to bring up the track record of what happens when people work closely around Reaper technology to say how that could turn into a really, really bad idea.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...
If you want to hear a rational argument for destroying the base, you will have you, maybe on principle, be willing to accept a Paragon's mindset in coming to this conclusion.  But you've clearly demonstrated throughout this thread that you have nothing but contempt for the mindset of Paragons, regardless of their actual rationality.  So you're essentially laying down an impossible goal as well.  Even if I could present an intelligent argument, you won't care.

Bah.

There's been several discussions regarding the Collector base.

Each and every time the base blowers have failed to properly justifiy theri decisions.

No proper argumnets. No real inteligent argument.

Theri points have been debunked one-by-one and every single CB thread ends with the base blowers leaving after being soundly beaten. Then they open a new thread hoping that everyone forgot about their ast fiasco.

Blowing the base up is founded on inflated fears, poor priority assesment, trust issues, denial of facts and personal ego.

If there ever was a truly rational/logical/intelligent reasoning for blowing it up, I haven't seen it yet.


It basicly all boils down to "ohnoescerberusisevil! Tehyregonnagenocideeveryoneifwegivethemthebase!"

[RiouHotaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bah.

There's been several discussions regarding the Collector base.

Each and every time the base blowers have failed to properly justifiy theri decisions.

No proper argumnets. No real inteligent argument.

Theri points have been debunked one-by-one and every single CB thread ends with the base blowers leaving after being soundly beaten. Then they open a new thread hoping that everyone forgot about their ast fiasco.

Blowing the base up is founded on inflated fears, poor priority assesment, trust issues, denial of facts and personal ego.

If there ever was a truly rational/logical/intelligent reasoning for blowing it up, I haven't seen it yet.


It basicly all boils down to "ohnoescerberusisevil! Tehyregonnagenocideeveryoneifwegivethemthebase!"

...You really believe that?  It's really more like "Okay, the Renegades have shown the flaws in our argument.  Now we'll do the same."

Only the Renegades believe their argument has no holes, no flaws.  Nothing.

And really? " Trust issues" aren't a legitimate reason?  Wow.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Since no one botheredto debunk this, I'll re-post it:

Trust issues with team are irelevant. The inabiltiy to put them aside is a serious problem. Seriously, you're all going:

"The galaxy must unite!"
"Krogan, put your trust issues of Salarians aside! Oh, and the Rachni too!"
"Quarians, put your trust issues of hte Geth aside for hte good of hte Galaxy!"
"Humans and Turians, burry our hatchets"  ..etc..

A paragon is demanding everyone to put their trust isses aside for the good of the galaxy...except his own.

Expecting TIM to betray everyone is no different from Krogan expecting the Salarians to betray everyone.
There is no logic in that. EVERYONE is threatened by the reapers. It is in EVERYONES interest to fight.

Yet, a blind Paragons little ego cannot possibly accept that. No indeed.

Hypocrites

Which is why I ask again...what does Shep answer is Krogans/Turian/Quarians go;
"Why should be band together with those we have and do not trust when you don't want to do the same? How about you lkead by example Shepard?"

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...
...You really believe that?  It's really more like "Okay, the Renegades have shown the flaws in our argument.  Now we'll do the same."

Only the Renegades believe their argument has no holes, no flaws.  Nothing.

And really? " Trust issues" aren't a legitimate reason?  Wow.

Yes.

I have yet to see any "gaping flaws" in keeping the base.
Meanwhile, destroying it has holes beig enogh to fly a reaper trough.

I have been in enough of these discussions to have countered more claims and uspposed holes that I can count.

In order to have any chance in arguments liek this, paragons must inflate the danger, power and ineptitude of Cerberus to redicolous proportions.

[RiouHotaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Alright, since you asked:

The choice of either destroying the base or keeping it relies on a single question, which, depending on the answer, determine whether or not you keep the Base, or blow it up:

Can you trust TIM with it?

That isn't the important question.
The important question is - do we need the base. The answer is YES.

Trust issues with team are irelevant. The inabiltiy to put them aside is a serious problem. Seriously, you're all going:
"The galaxy must unite! Krogan, put your trust issues of Salarians aside! Oh, and the Rachni too!"
"Quarians, put your trust issues of hte Geth aside for hte good of hte Galaxy!"
"Humans and Turians, burry our hatchets"  ..etc..

A paragon is demanding everyone to put their trust isses aside for the good of the galaxy...except his own.

Expecting TIM to betray everyone is no different from Krogan expecting the Salarians to betray everyone.
There is no logic in that. EVERYONE is threatened b hte reapers. It is in EVERYONES interest to fight.

Yet, a blind Paragons little ego cannot possibly accept that. No indeed.

Hypocrites

No, it's not hypocritical.

Are you saying that giving TIM the base without any guarantee that he won't just turn around and use it for his own obvious ulterior motives after he's got a PROVEN track record of lying openly to Shepard is the best course of action?

The base itself is nothing more than a tool.  An Important tool, but a tool.  It's the PERSON using it that matters.

And yes, it is in everyone's interests to fight.  But that doesn't mean people won't have ulterior or hidden agendas, even in the face of the disaster.  What we know of ME3 already proves that.

An alliance, a collaborative effort, requires trust.  If I can't trust you, or TIM, or ANYONE, then it's not in my best interests, or the best interests of an alliance, to work with you or help you.

[Eclipse_9990]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...So, despite the game clearly stating such, you insist this is not the case.

I can only judge what I can see and I never saw Cerberus do anything.

If you ask me the quest is a little unfinished. Probably at some point they planned to have something else on the colony that would directly implicate Cerberus. Instead all that we know if is that they got samples and left.

RioHotaru wrote...

I actually stated, quite plainly, that your view is as equally valid as mine.

Is this suppose to win me over? I don't think your view is as equally valid as mine. At least not on most issues. On this specific issue (Colony of the Dead) I might say that your stance on it IS equally valid.

However if you want to bring up something like say, the Collector base, I will not grant say that both views are valid.

Still being an arrogant **** Saph?

Saphra Deden wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

You do realize that her stating "The husks were already dead" doesn't absolve Cerberus of their guilt.  They were still responsible (if perhaps not directly) for the annhilation of an entire colony.

No, they weren't. If all Cerberus did was pick up some samples that Exo-Geni was experimenting with then they aren't guilty of anything except perhaps smuggling.

They had nothing to do with the colony being destroyed. They have nothing to feel guilty about.

RiouHotaru wrote...

Also Saph, reading this thread, 
I'm a tad disappointed that you (and a few others) are falling right 
back into Zulu's old ways of treating Paragon as hopelessly naive goody 
two-shoes...

You are what you are and I treat you as such.

Yup. 

[RiouHotaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In order to have any chance in arguments liek this, paragons must inflate the danger, power and ineptitude of Cerberus to redicolous proportions.

The problem is that most (not all) Paragons say that Cerberus' dark track record negates the good things they've done.  Most (but not all) Renegades say that Shepard and the Normandy negate the bad things Cerberus has done.

The truth is that they are both wrong.  Neither Cerberus' good or bad actions negate the value of each other.  They have to be weighed equally, and a decision has to be made PERSONALLY, whether the good outweighs the bad.

There's no "inflation" going on.  It's a simply comparison of the fact's against personal values and beliefs.

And no matter how Renegades try to claim their ridiculous sense of pragmatism and rationality, they are doing the same thing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Alright, since you asked:

The choice of either destroying the base or keeping it relies on a single question, which, depending on the answer, determine whether or not you keep the Base, or blow it up:

Can you trust TIM with it?

That isn't the important question.
The important question is - do we need the base. The answer is YES.

Trust issues with team are irelevant. The inabiltiy to put them aside is a serious problem. Seriously, you're all going:
"The galaxy must unite! Krogan, put your trust issues of Salarians aside! Oh, and the Rachni too!"
"Quarians, put your trust issues of hte Geth aside for hte good of hte Galaxy!"
"Humans and Turians, burry our hatchets"  ..etc..

A paragon is demanding everyone to put their trust isses aside for the good of the galaxy...except his own.

Expecting TIM to betray everyone is no different from Krogan expecting the Salarians to betray everyone.
There is no logic in that. EVERYONE is threatened b hte reapers. It is in EVERYONES interest to fight.

Yet, a blind Paragons little ego cannot possibly accept that. No indeed.

Hypocrites

No, it's not hypocritical.

Are you saying that giving TIM the base without any guarantee that he won't just turn around and use it for his own obvious ulterior motives after he's got a PROVEN track record of lying openly to Shepard is the best course of action?

Oh please...Your'e acting like the Council or the Alliacne never lie. Or like Shep never lies.

TIM told 1 lie..by ommision. For a good cause and with good reason. EVEN MORODIN AGREES.
WOW...what an amazing track record.


I ask you - what guarantee you have that putting trust into anyone else won't backfire? Teh Batarians might attack our forces from the reaer. Teh Krogan might bomb  the salarian homeworld if htey get teh chance..So on adn so on..

The base itself is nothing more than a tool.  An Important tool, but a tool.  It's the PERSON using it that matters.

And yes, it is in everyone's interests to fight.  But that doesn't mean people won't have ulterior or hidden agendas, even in the face of the disaster.  What we know of ME3 already proves that.

ME3 is irrelevant ot the discussion.
One has no more reason to think TIM will turn on everyone during a reaper invasion than the Turians will. Or anyone else for that matter.

Teh danger of Cerberus itself is overblown anyway.

An alliance, a collaborative effort, requires trust.  If I can't trust you, or TIM, or ANYONE, then it's not in my best interests, or the best interests of an alliance, to work with you or help you.

Then why do you demand quarians and geth to get along? Turians and humans? Krogan and Salarian?
I wonder how the the allies function in WW2??

At elast according to you, 99% of all alliances in human history shoudl have never been made..

you demand an alliance of trust, but do not wish to pay the price of  getting over your mistrust yourself.
Yes, hypocritical to the max.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In order to have any chance in arguments liek this, paragons must inflate the danger, power and ineptitude of Cerberus to redicolous proportions.

The problem is that most (not all) Paragons say that Cerberus' dark track record negates the good things they've done.  Most (but not all) Renegades say that Shepard and the Normandy negate the bad things Cerberus has done.

The truth is that they are both wrong.  Neither Cerberus' good or bad actions negate the value of each other.  They have to be weighed equally, and a decision has to be made PERSONALLY, whether the good outweighs the bad.

Which is utterly beside the point.
Cerberus doign good things and doing bad things is irrelevant to the matter. Wather Cerberus did more good then bad or vice-versa is really not imporat. They are a resource. They are willing to fight the reapers.
I couldn't care less if Cerberus was led by reincarnted super-space-Hitler.

You are fixated on juding one faction instead of thinking about the survival of the galaxy.

There's no "inflation" going on.  It's a simply comparison of the fact's against personal values and beliefs.

And no matter how Renegades try to claim their ridiculous sense of pragmatism and rationality, they are doing the same thing.

Yes there is. A horrific inflation, where the danger of Cerberus getting the base are inflated to the extreeme.
People argued that Cerberus would take over the entire galaxy with military might thanks to the base!

Cerberus is paramilitary faction. They're small in numbers - they arne't an invading army, they can't hold any territory even if by some magic they could capture a planet or two.

Yet Paragons, in their fits of insanity, insist that Cerberus with the base is the worst thing that could ever happen to the galaxy.


And no. It's people like you who let their emotions dictate everything.
I don't let my petty trust isses or likes/dislikes get in the way of galactic survival. It's exactly because you put your personal values and belifs above everything else that you fail at this.

[RiouHotaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
*huge rant*

Well sir, you're welcome to your opinion.  However, my argument is as valid as yours, and I'm glad Bioware at least makes my decision equal to yours.  That way you can have the resolution you want, and I can have the one I want.

And I wouldn't want it any other way.

[Sweawm]

I blew the Collector Base up because the commentary perfectly summarizes it: if you become your enemy, then what was the point of defeating them in the first place?

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Maybe if you were open minded and reasonable and not so stubborn we'd make progress?

I do believe that especially your post saying "Kiss my butt" is extremely reasonable and encourages progress.

Phaedon wrote...
Uh huh. That carries a lot of weight coming from someone like you.

So, are you actually questioning the fact that we have had political leaders commit directly or indirectly atrocities and then cite the "greater good"? Especially in the last 50 years?

Tut. tut.

It's a good thing you are so open minded and reasonable. A true example to us all.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Why would he even try to deny something so redicolous? 
An accusation so stupid, so brainless, deserves no reply. Only someone as epicly stupid as Shepard could even think of a stupid plan like that.

This is rather funny, seeing as his response to Shepard asking him if he's planning on creating a Human Reaper is basically TIM saying "You know I'd go to achieve my goals". He's not denying it, or changing the subject. He is answering. With "Why not?"

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
*huge rant*

Well sir, you're welcome to your opinion.  However, my argument is as valid as yours, and I'm glad Bioware at least makes my decision equal to yours.  That way you can have the resolution you want, and I can have the one I want.

And I wouldn't want it any other way.

Heh..."valid"? In what sense?

It ain't logical or practical.
I guess you can claim it ends up allright - but that doesn't really factor into the decision-makign process.

But you're certanly welcome to yoaur oppinion that your argument is valid.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sweawm wrote...

I blew the Collector Base up because the commentary perfectly summarizes it: if you become your enemy, then what was the point of defeating them in the first place?

How exactly are you becomign your enemy?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Why would he even try to deny something so redicolous? 
An accusation so stupid, so brainless, deserves no reply. Only someone as epicly stupid as Shepard could even think of a stupid plan like that.

This is rather funny, seeing as his response to Shepard asking him if he's planning on creating a Human Reaper is basically TIM saying "You know I'd go to achieve my goals". He's not denying it, or changing the subject. He is answering. With "Why not?"

We've already proven making a human reaper is horribly impractical, inefficient, stupid and the most moronic action possible.
Not something TIM would do. It's simply too impractical.

And nothing TIM said is confirmation fo your redicolous suspicions.