1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus is institutionally amoral, but many standards distinguish between an amoral outlook and an utterly evil character. Some on the basis that evil can not do good: others that overall effect is the important criteria.

Once you get to the point where you're feeding people to thresher maws and injecting survivors with thresher maw venom to see what happens, does it really matter?

Since that's a deliberate misrepresentation of an unknown, can I ignore it as a weak question?

Did Cerberus not lure Alliance marines to thresher maw nests on at least two separate opccasions?

Was Admiral Kahoku not assassinated when he investigated the second attack?

Was Corporal Toombs not subjected to experiments when he survived the first attack, including being injected with thresher maw venom?

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus is institutionally amoral, but many standards distinguish between an amoral outlook and an utterly evil character. Some on the basis that evil can not do good: others that overall effect is the important criteria.

Once you get to the point where you're feeding people to thresher maws and injecting survivors with thresher maw venom to see what happens, does it really matter?

Since that's a deliberate misrepresentation of an unknown, can I ignore it as a weak question?

Did Cerberus not lure Alliance marines to thresher maw nests on at least two separate opccasions?

Was Admiral Kahoku not assassinated when he investigated the second attack?

Was Corporal Toombs not subjected to experiments when he survived the first attack, including being injected with thresher maw venom?

See, now you're changing your questions into less absurd forms. Which is good! That's what I want you to do. Thank you for doing what I wanted you to do.

Take the Thresher Maws. 'Lure people to nests' has an entirely different context than 'feed people to maws': one is an action in pursuit of a goal, the other implies what the goal is. IE, to feed the maws is the point in and of itself.

Whereas the first one makes no implication as to why. Was Akuze a test to see if Maws could be controlled? Was it a test to see if Alliance marines were trained and equiped to be able to handle Maws without preparation? If so, was the later repeat to see if Alliance performance had improved? Did the Maw Traps happen for the same reasons, or were the motivations and intents entirely different?

We don't know. We don't know why Cerberus set up the Akuze project, or what they were looking to gain from it. It probably wasn't to give the Thresher Maws breakfast, though.



This uncertainty of intent is the same with Tombs. Your statement implies that Cerberus was totally ignorant about what the results of Thresher Maw acid would be. That finding out was the purpose in and of itself. But who says that? What justifies that presumption? Why is Toombs a victim of torture for the lols and just because, rather than the victim of an attempt at developing anti-acids or steroids or some radical prototype of the mixture that one day becomes known as Medigel? Why do we assume Cerberus is looking for anything in general, rather than something in particular?

We don't know why Cerberus ran the Toombs tests. We don't know if they were looking for anything, or what they were looking for, or what they got out of it. It may have been significant. It may not. We can not know.




Your question is weak when you assign a motivation to actions you don't understand. That is intellecutally dishonest, and counter productive. That Cerberus does Bad Things has never been in doubt: exagerating or misleading what they did, however, only ruins any attempt at consideration.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

[See, now you're changing your questions into less absurd forms. Which is good! That's what I want you to do. Thank you for doing what I wanted you to do.

Take the Thresher Maws. 'Lure people to nests' has an entirely different context than 'feed people to maws': one is an action in pursuit of a goal, the other implies what the goal is. IE, to feed the maws is the point in and of itself.

Whereas the first one makes no implication as to why. Was Akuze a test to see if Maws could be controlled? Was it a test to see if Alliance marines were trained and equiped to be able to handle Maws without preparation? If so, was the later repeat to see if Alliance performance had improved? Did the Maw Traps happen for the same reasons, or were the motivations and intents entirely different?

We don't know. We don't know why Cerberus set up the Akuze project, or what they were looking to gain from it. It probably wasn't to give the Thresher Maws breakfast, though.



This uncertainty of intent is the same with Tombs. Your statement implies that Cerberus was totally ignorant about what the results of Thresher Maw acid would be. That finding out was the purpose in and of itself. But who says that? What justifies that presumption? Why is Toombs a victim of torture for the lols and just because, rather than the victim of an attempt at developing anti-acids or steroids or some radical prototype of the mixture that one day becomes known as Medigel? Why do we assume Cerberus is looking for anything in general, rather than something in particular?

We don't know why Cerberus ran the Toombs tests. We don't know if they were looking for anything, or what they were looking for, or what they got out of it. It may have been significant. It may not. We can not know.




Your question is weak when you assign a motivation to actions you don't understand. That is intellecutally dishonest, and counter productive. That Cerberus does Bad Things has never been in doubt: exagerating or misleading what they did, however, only ruins any attempt at consideration.

The entire situation is absurd to me.  Whatever the intentions, some things simply cannot be justified.

Whether it was a test or feeding time for the threshers, Cerberus got Alliance marines, human marines killed.  And they (effectively) tortured a survivor for who knows how long.  Cerberus had to know what would happen.  Unless you're Wrex or Shepard, most people fight thresher maws in tanks!   By luring unsuspecting soldiers into a nest, you are, effectively, feeding them to the threshers.  Dress it up how you like.  the outcome's pretty much forgone.

Toombs:  He was kidnapped and held for years undergoing painful and doubtless illegal experiments.  While I suppose it's possible that a bizarre confluence of events might justify those actions from certain points of view, I'm quite comfortable in my assumption that there were no such events   Even if it wasn't "Evil for the lolz" it's still beyond the pale.  If Cerberus wanted to test thresher maw venom, they should get volunteers from their own ranks.

Immoral, amoral, once you get to a certain pont, does it really matter what the motivation was?

As the phrase went in Overlord:  "It all seemed harmless"  Look where it got them.

Modifié par iakus, 29 janvier 2012 - 05:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...


The entire situation is absurd to me.  Whatever the intentions, some things simply cannot be justified.

Depends how abstract you want to be. Actions? You can usually create a situation in which something is justified.

More important, however, is measuring how bad something is... and whether it outweighs something else.

Whether it was a test or feeding time for the threshers, Cerberus got Alliance marines, human marines killed.

Sure: but the why is important. Was the point to kill the marines? Or was the loss of the marines an expectation? Or was Akuze something that took even Cerberus by surprise?

Remember, we don't even know exactly why the Akuze colony was destroyed. Did the Threshers do it on their own, or did Cerberus instigate it?

Akuze reads a lot differently if you frame it as 'Cerberus sets up a frantic combat comparison of Thresher Maw to Alliance soldier after Maws rampage over entire colony, in case established Human colony garrisons are threatened'  rather than 'evil group kills Marines just cause.'

 And they (effectively) tortured a survivor for who knows how long.

Torture is rather implicitly about extracting information or punishing a victim, not any suffering in general. Immoral science is immoral, but it's of a different sort from conventional torture.

Your milage with unethical sciences depends on the outputs. If Thresher Maw acid was a base part of the original formula for Medigel, would it be 'worth it'?

 Cerberus had to know what would happen.  Unless you're Wrex or Shepard, most people fight thresher maws in tanks!   By luring unsuspecting soldiers into a nest, you are, effectively, feeding them to the threshers.  Dress it up how you like.  the outcome's pretty much forgone.

The Alliance fights Thresher Maws in tanks after Akuze. Akuze was the disaster that taught the Alliance just how bad Maws are.

Before Akuze, it's not clear what the Alliance knew or believed about the Maws. In the immediate aftermath of Akuze, the Alliance brass (which, one should remember, was still in control of Cerberus at the time) could be desperatly wondering how any given colonial garrison might fare if a Thresher Maw rose up under a different colony.

Toombs:  He was kidnapped and held for years undergoing painful and doubtless illegal experiments.  While I suppose it's possible that a bizarre confluence of events might justify those actions from certain points of view, I'm quite comfortable in my assumption that there were no such events   Even if it wasn't "Evil for the lolz" it's still beyond the pale. 

Then call it beyond the pale for what it is: unethical medical experiments on an unwilling subject. Certainly that's bad enough, that you don't need to lie about why they should be hated?

If Cerberus wanted to test thresher maw venom, they should get volunteers from their own ranks.

A bit late for morality then, since you already said they shouldn't be testing it in the first place. It would also come into conflict with the organization ethics of protecting your own command first: not only are they yours, you'll get less done if you incapacitate your own skilled professionals.

Immoral, amoral, once you get to a certain pont, does it really matter what the motivation was?

Yes. Greatly. The difference between a soldier and a murderer is purpose.


The motivations for an action determine what sort of actor you are. Your motivations are what are looked at when determine your credibility, your likely actions in the future, and the availability of common causes or mutual interests.


If Cerberus was a torture-sadism group who did the nastiest things possible for the sake of nasty things, nothing else, there would be no reason to work with them. We do not have common interests. But because they are not such a group that conducts torture for the lols, but has an intent and a direction, we do have an overlap of desires. Because we have a common cause, we can work with them.

Because we work with them, we gain the tools for stopping the Collectors, saving far more lives than All the Akuzes and Teltins and Overlords combined, and gain tools that will help defeat the Reapers.


That is why distinction matters.

As the phrase went in Overlord:  "It all seemed harmless"  Look where it got them.

If you do it before recruiting Legion, the key to nullifying one of the key Reaper allies come the galactic genocide that will kill billions.

[Il Divo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Greatly. The difference between a soldier and a murderer is purpose.

The motivations for an action determine what sort of actor you are. Your motivations are what are looked at when determine your credibility, your likely actions in the future, and the availability of common causes or mutual interests.

Mordin Solus's research into the Genophage, for example.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 janvier 2012 - 05:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Il Divo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Greatly. The difference between a soldier and a murderer is purpose.

The motivations for an action determine what sort of actor you are. Your motivations are what are looked at when determine your credibility, your likely actions in the future, and the availability of common causes or mutual interests.

Mordin Solus's research into the Genophage, for example.

An excellent example.

The genophage is a form of genocide. No matter what the Salarians intended, leaving a viable birthrate, Wrex in ME1 establishes that the Krogan are in a terminal population decline. Even without that, what it does still constittues genocide.

It is the ultimate indiscriminate weapon, targetting military and civilians alike, punishing the great grandchildren of the Krogan of the rebellions for crimes they weren't even alive for. Not only has the Council inflicted the genophage on people who have never fought against it, the Council re-applied it on all people at the mere thought that the punishment their ancestors incited might fade away in their descendants.

And yet... the gentle genocide may well have prevented a worse genocide.


Mordin Solus is a war criminal. But that doesn't make him utter evil.

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Remember, we don't even know exactly why the Akuze colony was destroyed. Did the Threshers do it on their own, or did Cerberus instigate it?

Akuze reads a lot differently if you frame it as 'Cerberus sets up a frantic combat comparison of Thresher Maw to Alliance soldier after Maws rampage over entire colony, in case established Human colony garrisons are threatened'  rather than 'evil group kills Marines just cause.'[/quote]

The coloony was attacked before Shepard/Toombs's unit was deployed.  They were sent in to investigate.  Whether the colony was destroyed by Cerberus or not, the unit sent to investigate was.

[quote]
 And they (effectively) tortured a survivor for who knows how long. [/quote]Torture is rather implicitly about extracting information or punishing a victim, not any suffering in general. Immoral science is immoral, but it's of a different sort from conventional torture.

Your milage with unethical sciences depends on the outputs. If Thresher Maw acid was a base part of the original formula for Medigel, would it be 'worth it'?[/quote]

Umm, they were subjecting him to painful experiments without his consent.  For information, among other things, how thresher acid worked..  Ergo "torture"



[quote]
The Alliance fights Thresher Maws in tanks after Akuze. Akuze was the disaster that taught the Alliance just how bad Maws are.

Before Akuze, it's not clear what the Alliance knew or believed about the Maws. In the immediate aftermath of Akuze, the Alliance brass (which, one should remember, was still in control of Cerberus at the time) could be desperatly wondering how any given colonial garrison might fare if a Thresher Maw rose up under a different colony.[/quote]

Again, if they knew enough to lure a unit of marines to the nest.  Without warning them what they'd be up against..

[quote]
]Then call it beyond the pale for what it is: unethical medical experiments on an unwilling subject. Certainly that's bad enough, that you don't need to lie about why they should be hated?[/quote]

What lie?  He was injected with thresher venom.  To see what would happen.  That's not nice.

[quote]
[quote]If Cerberus wanted to test thresher maw venom, they should get volunteers from their own ranks.[/quote]A bit late for morality then, since you already said they shouldn't be testing it in the first place. It would also come into conflict with the organization ethics of protecting your own command first: not only are they yours, you'll get less done if you incapacitate your own skilled professionals.[/quote]

They shouldn't be testing it on innocent victims kidnapped and subjected to these tests against their will.  If Cerberus personel want to die painfully for the betterment of mankind, let em.  At least they're walking into it with their eyes open.


[quote]
The motivations for an action determine what sort of actor you are. Your motivations are what are looked at when determine your credibility, your likely actions in the future, and the availability of common causes or mutual interests.


If Cerberus was a torture-sadism group who did the nastiest things possible for the sake of nasty things, nothing else, there would be no reason to work with them. We do not have common interests. But because they are not such a group that conducts torture for the lols, but has an intent and a direction, we do have an overlap of desires. Because we have a common cause, we can work with them. [/quote]

So Cerberus will kidnap you and kill you painfully over several years of unethical medical experimentation.  But they have a really really good reason for it?

Yeah that's much better than someone who'll do the same thing just for the lolz:mellow:

As far as I'm concerned, the "overlapping desires" are:  The Reapers will kill us all.  Council, Alliance, and Cerberus.  Just because Superman and Lex Luthor might team up to fight off an alien invasion doesn't make Luthor any less a villain.

[quote]
Because we work with them, we gain the tools for stopping the Collectors, saving far more lives than All the Akuzes and Teltins and Overlords combined, and gain tools that will help defeat the Reapers.


That is why distinction matters.[/quote]


Wait wait, I know this one!

"I am forging an alliance between us and the Reapers.  Between organics and machines.  And in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed!"

Oh, wait, that was Saren:lol: 

Modifié par iakus, 29 janvier 2012 - 06:21 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Greatly. The difference between a soldier and a murderer is purpose.

The motivations for an action determine what sort of actor you are. Your motivations are what are looked at when determine your credibility, your likely actions in the future, and the availability of common causes or mutual interests.

Mordin Solus's research into the Genophage, for example.

An excellent example.

The genophage is a form of genocide. No matter what the Salarians intended, leaving a viable birthrate, Wrex in ME1 establishes that the Krogan are in a terminal population decline. Even without that, what it does still constittues genocide.

It is the ultimate indiscriminate weapon, targetting military and civilians alike, punishing the great grandchildren of the Krogan of the rebellions for crimes they weren't even alive for. Not only has the Council inflicted the genophage on people who have never fought against it, the Council re-applied it on all people at the mere thought that the punishment their ancestors incited might fade away in their descendants.

And yet... the gentle genocide may well have prevented a worse genocide.


Mordin Solus is a war criminal. But that doesn't make him utter evil.

And you know what the difference is?

Through conversations and his loyalty mission, we can argue with him over the morality of the genophage.  We can learn that hundreds of different scenerios were considered.  Other methods of stopping the war considered.  We learn precisely the intent of the genophage (to stabilize the krogan population at preindustrial levels)  We learn the context and the controversy.

 And in the end, Mordin even admits that  "Modified genophage project great in scope. Scientifically brilliant.  But...ethically difficult.  Krogan reaction visceral.  Tragic.  Not guilty.  But responsible.  Trained as doctor.  Genophage affects fertility.  Doesn't kill.  Still, caused this.  Hard to see big picture behind pile of corpses."  To this day, Mordin struggles with the guilt over what he's done.  As he should

Also keep in mind, Mordin also finds such live experimentation to be repugnant "Disgusting.  Unethical.  Sloppy.  Used by brute force researchers.  Not thinkers.  No place in proper science" 

With Cerberus, we don't see any moral wrestling.  We don't see Cerberus trying to find other ways to perform research.  We don't see the necessity of their actions, only the actions themselves.  We don't know why marines were lured to their deaths, or many other unethical experiments were performed.  All we have are "maybes" and "what ifs" and head-canoning possible excuses for these actions.  I certainly can't head-canon a reason that would justify it, at least.

Given Bioware went out of their way to show a "kinder, gentler Cerberus" in ME2, but conveniently overlooked several of their more egregious crimes, I wonder if there was no exscuse.  Or none that most people would find acceptible.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jabajack wrote...

Given the short time span between the end of ME2 and the Reapers arrival does TIM have enough time to work out the kinks of any tech he finds? Indoctrination and other dangers seem highly likely. So it could be that we'll get punched in the gut no matter what...though what type of punch is still our choice.

Unknown. Note that at time we still have no idea when the reapers will come.

Well we know they come 'soon'.

Reapers are millions of years old.
What consititues as "soon" to them?

For them, a hunderdfyearsmay be "soon"

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Again, youre reading too muhc into it. What does that sentance mean? What can it mean?Cerberus works for the benefit of humanity. In that context, it is the future of humanity. It is humanity. See how easy it is?

From the context it sounds like the benefit of humanity is whatever Cerberus, and by extension, The Illusive Man, says it is.  And given their actions against  human citizens of both the Systems Alliance and the Terminus, I'd say my interpretation is pretty darn valid.

And you're not making the same assesments? Aren't you as Shepard deciding what's best for humantiy without asking anyone? Heck, even government often do things without aksing anyone.

Also, a President or councilor he would have a LOT more power and resources than he has now. A LOT. Even with all the restriuctions in place.
If power is all he wanted, he would have gone into politics - where all power-hungry people go.

Resources maybe.  But with the spotlight on them, they don't have the freedom to use them as much as I'm sure Jack Harper would like.  Laws, the press, political rivals all watching what he's doing.

As the Illusive Man, he answers to no one, and can do whatever he likes with his resources, which are still considerable.

A drop in the ocean. And being a councilor would alsogrant him more freedom in other aspects. He wouldn't have to hide (andcoiuld still run deniable black ops). and he have political clout nad means to do things in different ways.

Name one faction whos' security wasn't an epic faliure.

Citadel? Saren breached it.
Turian prison? Shep broke out?
Collector base/ship? Shep trashed it.
Sarens base? Nuked.
Alliance base onthe moon? Shadow Brokers base?
etc, etc...

It's a common problem with all action settings. In order to move hte story along, security has to be pathetic. Otherwise, you'd end up playing a Oceans 11 game. Not that I wouldn't mind long, intricate preparations and planing mind you...

All but one (Saren attacking the Citadel, and even there he had the Conduit and a small army of geth to work with) of your examples were performed by Shepard.  Who is, of course, the hero.  Most of the examples of Cerberus incompetance were done when Shepard was nowhere near at the time.  We only hear about it after the fact.  Not the best way to show how ruthlessly efficient your erstwhile ally is...

Actually no. The alliance base where hte AI begun to run amok was not Sheps doing.
But just because Shep was the one involved doesnt invalidate my point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The genophage is a form of genocide. No matter what the Salarians intended, leaving a viable birthrate, Wrex in ME1 establishes that the Krogan are in a terminal population decline. Even without that, what it does still constittues genocide.

It is the ultimate indiscriminate weapon, targetting military and civilians alike, punishing the great grandchildren of the Krogan of the rebellions for crimes they weren't even alive for. Not only has the Council inflicted the genophage on people who have never fought against it, the Council re-applied it on all people at the mere thought that the punishment their ancestors incited might fade away in their descendants.

And yet... the gentle genocide may well have prevented a worse genocide.

Mordin Solus is a war criminal. But that doesn't make him utter evil.

Interestingly, during Morodins loyalty mission, the Paragon choice is to keep the "morraly corrupt" data.

I'sa funyn how poeple refuse to work with Cerberus and give them the base (becausethey are Evvviiil murderers) and yet tehy have no qualms working wiht Salkarians and Turians, that commited mass genocide.
BILLIONS of Krogan died. Wrex talk about mountains of dead babies. THIS IS WORSE THAN ANYTHING CERBERUS EVER DID.  Yet oparagon will gladly ignore it  or handwave it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your milage with unethical sciences depends on the outputs. If Thresher Maw acid was a base part of the original formula for Medigel, would it be 'worth it'?

Umm, they were subjecting him to painful experiments without his consent.  For information, among other things, how thresher acid worked..  Ergo "torture"

You do relaise we "torture" animals on a daily basis for a lot less than a wonder-gel that can save millions of lives?

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What? Nothing was preventing the Normandy..The ME field was preventing Shepard.
And did it ever occur to you that the ME field that keeps the derelict from falling, also prevents it from being moved?

You expect Cerberus to waltz in and tinker wiht the core willy-nilly? That is alien tech. There are no instruction manuals - you don't just do that. I guess common sense isn't a requirement for your posts too, is it?

Because there's no such things as installing thrusters or putting up their own mass effect field generators that they can control.

Alien tech? Well, that didn't stop them from converting the majority of the Reaper into a lab without any security precautions whatsoever.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...
And you know what the difference is?

Through conversations and his loyalty mission, we can argue with him over the morality of the genophage.  We can learn that hundreds of different scenerios were considered.  Other methods of stopping the war considered.  We learn precisely the intent of the genophage (to stabilize the krogan population at preindustrial levels)  We learn the context and the controversy.

Which changes little as all those krogan are still dead.
and oyu never ask yoursefl if Cerberus considered other scenarios.

With Cerberus, we don't see any moral wrestling.  We don't see Cerberus trying to find other ways to perform research.  We don't see the necessity of their actions, only the actions themselves.  We don't know why marines were lured to their deaths, or many other unethical experiments were performed.  All we have are "maybes" and "what ifs" and head-canoning possible excuses for these actions.  I certainly can't head-canon a reason that would justify it, at least.

You are never given an option to discuss it. That doesn't mean it's not there.

In TIM's own words "No one wants to make these kidns of decisions"
That includes him. Which implies alternatives are worse.

I reffer back to the Horizon trap, which many Paragon still claim was a horrible horrible thing (despite not being able tocome up with ANY alternative).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Because there's no such things as installing thrusters or putting up their own mass effect field generators that they can control.

Alien tech? Well, that didn't stop them from converting the majority of the Reaper into a lab without any security precautions whatsoever.

Reaper have a mass effect core that outperforms the biggest DN's. You really think it would be easy to move it?
and installing all those thrusters would take a lot of time (look at Arrival).
And as far as I recall, the derelict reper was only recently discovered.

As for lab - setting up some walkways and brining in some equipment into a starship is really not a big deal. You don't need heavy security measures to place a lapton and some railings into a alien starship that already has corridors and rooms.
Tinkering with the biggest and most powerfull Ezoo core of alien design is whole nother thing....

[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
BILLIONS of Krogan died. Wrex talk about mountains of dead babies. THIS IS WORSE THAN ANYTHING CERBERUS EVER DID.  Yet oparagon will gladly ignore it  or handwave it.

Huh no, the paragon action is to disagree with Mordin and the Salarians over the genophage, paragon Shepard will convince Mordin what they did was wrong while the renegade will agree with their actions, I can only assume you missed some dialogue.

[jaza]

jaza wrote...

DJBare wrote...

jaza wrote...
I acknowledged that in my first post, thank you.

What I was saying is that we would be able to retake the base when/if he captures it.

In the mean time while you are preparing to take back the base it's already being used, a bit late for the poor suckers already being experimented on huh?

Without the base the entire galaxy will likely become just another footnote on the Reapers "Wall of Harvested Galaxies".

A bit bad for all those billions of innocent life forms huh?

Gonna answer my post, DJBare?

Oh and Dean_the_Young, if you're still here: Were you the one who wrote Renegade Reinterpretations?

Modifié par jaza, 29 janvier 2012 - 09:46 .

[Omilophile]

I don't think anyone here denies all the extremely helpful things Cerberus has done, but a few good deeds should not acquit them of the evils they have committed. Paul Grayson's forced augmentation with Reaper tech was going way too far (as were several other things). Justify it however you want, but you have to draw the line somewhere. "Results at any cost" is pointless and amoral. If we get rid of everything that makes us human, then we might as well just give up and die, because humanity is already extinct.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Reaper have a mass effect core that outperforms the biggest DN's. You really think it would be easy to move it?
and installing all those thrusters would take a lot of time (look at Arrival).
And as far as I recall, the derelict reper was only recently discovered.

As for lab - setting up some walkways and brining in some equipment into a starship is really not a big deal. You don't need heavy security measures to place a lapton and some railings into a alien starship that already has corridors and rooms.
Tinkering with the biggest and most powerfull Ezoo core of alien design is whole nother thing....

You know those days or weeks they probably spent setting those labs up, complete with airlocks and everything? Yeah, they could have just spent that time finding a way to deactivate the Reaper's systems while having their own replacement for the core that keeps it from falling into the brown dwarf which they can also use to move it.

If people in Mass Effect can move asteroids that are bigger than mass relays or bigger than the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs, they can move a Reaper.

[Omilophile]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You do relaise we "torture" animals on a daily basis for a lot less than a wonder-gel that can save millions of lives?

First of all, no we don't. Most animals used for food or other useful products are treated better because they need a healthy specimen in order to get the highest quality yields.

Secondly, even if we did torture animals, we can do that. We're at the top of the food chain. Torturing animals is not even close to being as bad as torturing people, so don't EVEN compare the two. 

Modifié par Omilophile, 29 janvier 2012 - 10:01 .

[DJBare]

jaza wrote...

Gonna answer my post, DJBare?

I did not answer your post because it "assumes" keeping the base is the only way to win, as my paragon said to garrus, to paraphrase "we do it the right way not the easy way", but you know, this argument has become pretty much moot after a dev clearly says there is no win for the reapers, so both paragon and renegade approaches will win, the difference is how they will be percieved by the survivors.

[SykoWolf]

(SPOILER). They work for the FU*KING reapers in ME3, nothing good about that!!! They even turned some of there soldiers into husks!!!

[Omilophile]

jreezy wrote...

Omilophile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You do relaise we "torture" animals on a daily basis for a lot less than a wonder-gel that can save millions of lives?

First of all, no we don't. Most animals used for food or other useful products are treated better because they need a healthy specimen in order to get the highest quality yields.

Secondly, even if we did torture animals, we can do that. We're at the top of th food chain. Torturing animals is not even close to being as bad as torturing people, so don't EVEN compare the two. 

This sounds..."wrong" would be the best word to describe it. Yeah that's it, wrong.

I'm sorry, are you implying we're not at the top of the food chain, or that it's wrong to torture animals? Not trying to be a dick, just honestly can't tell since you made that whole thing bold...

[jaza]

DJBare wrote...

jaza wrote...

Gonna answer my post, DJBare?

I did not answer your post because it "assumes" keeping the base is the only way to win, as my paragon said to garrus, to paraphrase "we do it the right way not the easy way", but you know, this argument has become pretty much moot after a dev clearly says there is no win for the reapers, so both paragon and renegade approaches will win, the difference is how they will be percieved by the survivors.

I suppose it won't matter if this "right way" results in billions dead?