1482 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
They're gone. It's done. Don't waste their life in vain. Focus on Reapers.

That was not my question, my question presupposes they still live, you have the power to send them to the pods for the best chance of beating the reapers, it's in your power, you as Shepard are the one making the call, I'll make it easier, they are part of a colony of a couple of thousand, and lets say it's lotions family amongst those colonists, you don't know them, they are complete strangers, no harm in sending strangers to the pods is there?

Modifié par DJBare, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:01 .

[Il Divo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

QFT.
Yet the paragons will never condemn them, or refuse to work with them, or questio ngiving hte CB to them....

Agreed. That's exactly why I think it's so odd that people talk about how they'd like to abandon Cerberus at any point and just go help the Council. Neither organization has a clean slate, but the Council (for some reason) is painted as the morally good fashion by some, despite the Genophage, despite the unfair balance of power they attempt to maintain, the existence of the Spectres, etc.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:05 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

QFT.
Yet the paragons will never condemn them, or refuse to work with them, or questio ngiving hte CB to them....

I think the difference here is that the questionable and damaging action is reactionary in the case of the Council.
The Krogans expanded aggresively and once war started would not be inclined to stop.
Cerberus experiments, however, isn't in response to an actual current threat but rather pushed by fear and hypothetical threats. Their push for quick results, lack of caution and unethical methods do in that light seem to be worse than a reactionary plague that actually prevented a complete genocide.

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
True, but that doesn't change the actions which occurred. Unless you are asserting that TIM's only goal in any of these sick experiments was for fun, I think (based on our interactions with him) we can conclude there's always a greater plan in sight. It may be human-focused, but he has motivation. TIM simply doesn't take the time to mourn over the hard choices, which I think speaks to his resolve more than his cruelty. Ultimately, in terms of actions, we can look at the Salarians and Turians as having caused greater atrocities than all of Cerberus put together.

Advancing a primitive race before their time to fight an enemy you can't defeat, then turning around and infecting them with a sterility plague is getting a tad close to genocide. Even worse, since you're responsible for introducing them to your conflict.

QFT.
Yet the paragons will never condemn them, or refuse to work with them, or questio ngiving hte CB to them....

At the risk of stating the obvious those actions were perpetrated a thousand or more years before the start of the game. Given how short lifespan of the Salarians it really does not make any sense to hold their descendants accountable for their crimes, that said given Mordin's role in the sad history of the st it is fair to hold him accountable for his role in the plague. Unfortunately in the context of the game Mordin is the only show in town so you have to work with him for assignment, on the other hand he did show a proper regard for methodology and didn't jump straight into experiments on sapient beings and his revulsion at the practice does suggest he has some moral principles that guide him.

A second and more important point, is that it's one thing to condemn an illegal organisation for actions committed by some of it's members in accordance to the group's goals; it's another thing entirely to condemn an entire race for the actions of a few of it's members.

Also, I'd still destroy the Collector's Base rather than hand it over to them or the Council, but I'm not all that much of a paragon player.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:15 .

[DJBare]

Il Divo wrote...

Agreed. That's exactly why I think it's so odd that people talk about how they'd like to abandon Cerberus at any point and just go help the Council. Neither organization has a clean slate, but the Council (for some reason) is painted as the morally good fashion by some, despite the Genophage, despite the unfair balance of power they attempt to maintain, the existence of the Spectres, etc.  

While I agree the council are major hypocrites, that unfair balance as you call it is warranted, humanity is a very young species in comparison to the council races, I would not have a teenager join my adult club either.

[Il Divo]

DJBare wrote...

While I agree the council are major hypocrites, that unfair balance as you call it is warranted, humanity is a very young species in comparison to the council races, I would not have a teenager join my adult club either.

And from a certain pov, I can understand that. I'm not against someone wanting to give the Collector Base to the Council; this is a role-playing game, after all: options, options, and more options. And you should be allowed to have/give a reason for your decision. I just take issue when some attempt to paint it as Council = good and Cerberus = evil. In terms of overall scale, the Council's decisions seem to be on a whole different level than Cerberus, in terms of the Genophage alone.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:14 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

QFT.
Yet the paragons will never condemn them, or refuse to work with them, or questio ngiving hte CB to them....

I think the difference here is that the questionable and damaging action is reactionary in the case of the Council.
The Krogans expanded aggresively and once war started would not be inclined to stop.
Cerberus experiments, however, isn't in response to an actual current threat but rather pushed by fear and hypothetical threats. Their push for quick results, lack of caution and unethical methods do in that light seem to be worse than a reactionary plague that actually prevented a complete genocide.

I don't think the dead krogan babies care....

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...
At the risk of stating the obvious those actions were perpetrated a thousand or more years before the start of the game. Given how short lifespan of the Salarians it really does not make any sense to hold their descendants accountable for their crimes, that said given Mordin's role in the sad history of the st it is fair to hold him accountable for his role in the plague. Unfortunately in the context of the game Mordin is the only show in town so you have to work with him for assignment, on the other hand he did show a proper regard for methodology and didn't jump straight into experiments on sapient beings and his revulsion at the practice does suggest he has some moral principles that guide him.

Does it matter? It shows Turans, Salrians and other as capable and willingto commit attrocitires greater than anything cerbeus did.
And yet you paragons want to give the CB to them.
And then demand for everyone to get along, while you yourselves refuse to do so.

Krogans have far more reason to hate Turians/salrains then Shep has to hate Cerberus.
Quarian and Geth have a far better reason to distrust eachother than Shep has to distrust Cerberus.

But I guess their reasoning doesn't matter - Shep is the only one who matters, right?

Also, I'd still destroy the Collector's Base rather than hand it over to them or the Council, but I'm not all that much of a paragon player.

Waste a precious resource like that...bloody brilliant.

[Il Divo]

Goneaviking wrote...

At the risk of stating the obvious those actions were perpetrated a thousand or more years before the start of the game. Given how short lifespan of the Salarians it really does not make any sense to hold their descendants accountable for their crimes, that said given Mordin's role in the sad history of the st it is fair to hold him accountable for his role in the plague. Unfortunately in the context of the game Mordin is the only show in town so you have to work with him for assignment, on the other hand he did show a proper regard for methodology and didn't jump straight into experiments on sapient beings and his revulsion at the practice does suggest he has some moral principles that guide him.

However, the bolded is exactly what the genophage does in function. It makes no distinction between "good Krogan" and "bad Krogan". If it weren't for the fact that they have such long life spans, they would be utterly obliterated at this point.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...
While I agree the council are major hypocrites, that unfair balance as you call it is warranted, humanity is a very young species in comparison to the council races, I would not have a teenager join my adult club either.

Unfortunartely, the old guard doesn't seem any wiser or different in behaviour than that teen.

[Vhaius]

Their leader is a Chainsmoking puppetmaster, with glowing eyes.

[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

No they are not, they are preparing to take advantage of the situation no matter the cost, to become the dominant species in the galaxy, I guess you think their experiments will stop once the reapers have been defeated?

[Someone With Mass]

Il Divo wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

At the risk of stating the obvious those actions were perpetrated a thousand or more years before the start of the game. Given how short lifespan of the Salarians it really does not make any sense to hold their descendants accountable for their crimes, that said given Mordin's role in the sad history of the st it is fair to hold him accountable for his role in the plague. Unfortunately in the context of the game Mordin is the only show in town so you have to work with him for assignment, on the other hand he did show a proper regard for methodology and didn't jump straight into experiments on sapient beings and his revulsion at the practice does suggest he has some moral principles that guide him.

However, the bolded is exactly what the genophage does in function. It makes no distinction between "good Krogan" and "bad Krogan". If it weren't for the fact that they have such long life spans, they would be utterly obliterated at this point.  

The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

[Someone With Mass]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

No they are not, they are preparing to take advantage of the situation no matter the cost, to become the dominant species in the galaxy, I guess you think their experiments will stop once the reapers have been defeated?

I am curious to know how injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom is going to help at all against the Reapers. 

[incinerator950]

Someone With Mass wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

No they are not, they are preparing to take advantage of the situation no matter the cost, to become the dominant species in the galaxy, I guess you think their experiments will stop once the reapers have been defeated?

I am curious to know how injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom is going to help at all against the Reapers. 

The Reapers will be utterly convinced that Humanity is insane, and leave the Galaxy for another cycle. 

[OrdinaryTenant]

DJBare wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Agreed. That's exactly why I think it's so odd that people talk about how they'd like to abandon Cerberus at any point and just go help the Council. Neither organization has a clean slate, but the Council (for some reason) is painted as the morally good fashion by some, despite the Genophage, despite the unfair balance of power they attempt to maintain, the existence of the Spectres, etc.  

While I agree the council are major hypocrites, that unfair balance as you call it is warranted, humanity is a very young species in comparison to the council races, I would not have a teenager join my adult club either.

Do you mean humanity is a more recent entrant onto the galactic stage?  I think there's something to that.  Of course, on the other side of that coin you could just as easily say our fresh perspective and relative lack of "historical baggage" in the galaxy at large is a strong mark in humanity's favor.  Probably a bit of both.

It's just that, entrenched systems like the Citadel Council jealously guard their own power and rarely welcome newcomers.  So given that the Citadel Council has done or endorsed some pretty horrible things over the years, so I wouldn't be so quick to cast them in any sort of superior role.

I think the best analogy is a wolf pack.  The old Council are the "alphas" and humanity is the up-and-comer.  I guess Cerberus would be the "fangs" of the wolf.  That's how I see it.

Modifié par OrdinaryTenant, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:38 .

[Izhalezan]

Someone With Mass wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

No they are not, they are preparing to take advantage of the situation no matter the cost, to become the dominant species in the galaxy, I guess you think their experiments will stop once the reapers have been defeated?

I am curious to know how injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom is going to help at all against the Reapers. 

It's futuristic Tiger blood.

[DJBare]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I am curious to know how injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom is going to help at all against the Reapers. 

I wonder how many unethical scientists will be clamouring to work for cerburus/, and all those aliens they will be able to experiment on, how about making a few more like David, ya know, just hook up more unwilling organics to machines, remember, I said unethical, the restraints would be lifted on illegal experiments with cerburus running the show, unethical scientists don't need a reason to see how bad bad can get.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

One question would be why is something the business of a Council Spectre if it is not the business of the Council. [/quote]For the same reason Shepard got all those side quests in ME1: the Spectres are free to do as they please when not on a Council mission. Whether that entials private corruption or a public agenda or personal motivations.

[quote]
It's not like the meeting between Shepard and the Council is official. At least I don't consider them to be. So basically Shep doesn't get support from his superiours, not even inofficial. At best they look the other way so Shep can do whatever he wants. [/quote]Which, all things considered with a celebrity like Shepard, is actually quite a lot to ask for.
[quote]
I don't understand either why Udina and Anderson seem to not care about the abductions of colonies when in ME1 Udina asks for Council support for human colonies.[/quote]They do care, even if Udina may not believe the Reaper angle. They're just not in a position to do much for Shepard.

Besides that Udina appeared for all of a minute as forced antagonism, the Human Councilor is responsible for trying to get the Council to look into the abductions. The Paragon Council dismisses them until much later, when it sends the STG: the Renegade Council moves sooner, finally getting the Citadel Fleet to take part in the investigation. Meanwhile the Alliance is doing what it can, as revealed in Arrival pre-Suicide Mision.

[quote]
My problem in ME2 is that the Alliance/Council are basically inactive. They go dormant like the Reapers or something. The only thing they do is sending the VS to Horizons with what result? None really. They didn't trust Shepard to begin with because of Cerberus, send the VS to investigate and the result is that nothing happens. The VS sees what Collectors do to the colonies, sees how Shep saves half the colony while the VS him or herselfs probably hides under a rock or something but ... what is the consequence? That the VS is disappointed that Shep works with Cerberus. [/quote]If you listen to the news reports or play Arrival before the Suicide Mission, you'd realize this isn't true. Plus, we already know from the James Vega trailer (with the boxing match) that part of Vega's trauma involved action in regards to the Collectors.

Horizon was the Council and Alliance's first successful investigation. 


[quote]
What exactly is the problem there? Why does nobody care about Collectors, Reapers, human colonies?[/quote]They do once they confirm them, they weren't able to confirm them, the colonies chose to leave Citadel space and the Alliance and go to a dangerous place on their own volition and so fewer other species care.

[quote]
In my opinion just to give the stage to Cerberus. It makes no sense that nobody aside from Cerberus cares. Anderson is the fricken councilor now. Honeslty, Shepard knows the whole alliance lead. Udina, Anderson, Hackett, the soon-to be Spectre VS. They believe him about the Reapers, send him to extra missions (Arrival) but they don't do ANYTHING to help. [/quote]They don't do anything to help Shepard. They are involved in parallel efforts against the Collectors.

[quote]What is Shepard to them, really? All they have against Shep is a rumor placed by TIM that Shep 'is with Cerberus'. [/quote]And the fact that Shepard is with Cerberus. Flies in their ships, takes their pay, eats their cereal, and everything.

The Alliance recognizes there's a problem, but they don't trust Cerberus to not be implicit in it. Which isn't unreasonable. So they investigate, which is reasonable, but either don't find anything because they arrive too late or because of Collector interference. When they are able to confirm the nature of the problem on Horizon, the Council is pressured to get involved on its in, the Alliance begins evacuating and reorganing exposed colonies for defensive purposes, and so on.


[quote]
Then you fly with your Cerberus vessel right into the Citadel. You dock at the Citadel. With a Cerberus vessel, Cerberus logo, Ai on board, probably Geth on board, etc. Why is the ship not confiscated. Explain that. [/quote]Cerberus may not have had a public logo before, the Alliance and Council don't know there's an AI on board, and Legion is seen as a trophy bot and not a real Geth.

On top of that, Shepard is a firebomb politically, and Cerberus is in just the right place politically to make a confrontation involving Shepard too toxic. Not to mention Shepard has certain VIPs at the top looking out for him.

[quote]
Because Shep's a spectre? Spectre status doesn't mean anything. Or they would not treat you like a double agent.
I mean at one side they don't trust you and then again they do.[/quote]This is pretty natural. Shepard is a compromised asset: Shepard may or may not be acting on his own will, but then again may and simply being misled. Both are potential, as is the fact that Shepard is right. Hedging the bets is easier.

[quote]
If they WANT you to work with Cerberus they can just say so. It's an official meeting and everyone taking part probably has highest security priority. Why not just say Shep, we want you to stop the Collectors with Cerberus, but don't trust them so do what you have to do and get the hell out. But instead they act as if it's Shepard's choice and Shepard's business. [/quote]Because that is what it is. As the Council wasn't able to prove the Reapers to their own satisfaction, any linking to the Collectors is irrelevant. The Human colonies are considered a Human concern as long as non-Council Space colonies are the only ones hit.

[quote]
I never ****ing chose to work with Cerberus. [/quote]But Shepard did. Just like Shepard chose to throw Ash/Kaiden out of the Beacon's path and got the whole Prothean Beacon in the mind. Just like Shepard chose to commit treason and pursue Saren to Illos, rather than wait to be able to move again legally. Just like Shepard chose to drop an asteroid on a Mass Relay.

[quote]
I mean if I was Councilor, especially Anderson, I would be curious. Why is Shep not dead. Why is he working with Cerberus. How did it happen, etc. I mean in the real world. If a CIA agent returns after his superiors thought he was dead, what would happen? Would they just let him go to whatever he thinks has to do or would they make hearing, etc. What happens in ME3, the hearing, should have happened in ME2. Guys, Shepard is back. Let's not treat it like nothing happened and it doesn't concern us. But no, they decide that it is somehow not their business, they give Shepard leave to do whatever he wants as long as he stays in the Terminus and then give him an assignment to deal with the missing research team. And when then 300000 slavers die in the Terminus it is suddenly an issue because Shepard was there.
[/quote]You can thank Hackett for that. 

[quote]
Sorry but nothing of this makes sense. If you can't see that ok, but that's not how politics work, that's not how military work, it's not even how companies work. It is just a silly story that doesn't even try to make sense. I can easily believe that Bioware is making up the story as they go, because it reads exactly like that. What do I care what I said yesterday, today we have a new idea and we are not looking back.[/quote]Actually, you're looking at the results of an internal power struggle in a consensus political field.

People like the Council don't recognize the Reaper threat, and don't consider the Terminus their problem and don't want to get involved. They'd bring in Shepard if it weren't too much trouble.

People like Udina may not recognize the Reaper threat, but they do care about the Human colonies but can't act on their own without more to push the Council with. They're more sympathetic to the idea of Shepard being allowed to investigate.

People like Hackett and Anderson, who believe in the Reaper threat, aren't able to do much on their own but are doing what they can to let Shepard continue to act freely by obstructing people like the Council from obstructing Shepard.




Things don't make sense because you're anthromorphizing a political system as a single viewpoint, not the output of a lot of conflicting viewpoints.



[quote]
You know, TIM would never have revived Shepard. And know why? Because Shepard wouldn't work with him. [/quote]Rather disputed by the canon, but hey.

[quote]
But TIM doesn't concern with the question whether Shepard will screw him over. Because the plot says so.
[/quote]Shepard never had much to screw him over with.

Besides that Shepard agreed to work with Cerberus before TIM sent the expensive toys. even if Shepard takes the toys it's not as terrible a loss as you might believe. The people in Shepard's cell were always expendible (as is the nature of a suicide mission team), and the two biggest losses would have been Miranda (who could be recovered later) and EDI (who might be recreated later, and who doesn't have much info on Cerberus). The Normandy? It itself would likely simply be repurposed... such as in a Collector investigation.

TIM's primary goal was met by Shepard simply being returned from the dead. Everything else was gravy.



[quote]
Shepard is not taking the Normandy to the Citadel to let the Alliance have it, pick it apart, unlock the AI, etc. Because that would be the reasonable thing to do.[/quote]No, that would be what you want to do. Shepard believes in the Collector threat, however, and how the Council and Alliance aren't going to be good at it. Just like Shepard didn't believe that biding his time with the Council about Ilos was reasonable.

[quote]
Shepard just believes TIM that they did nothing to him.[/quote]No line in the game argues this. Many lines allow Shepard to show reservation about Cerberus.

[quote]
TIM said in Shep's reconstruction they didn't put any drones or anything into him and who are we to not believe him? He is a reasonable guy after all. [/quote]Besides the corroboration of Miranda, who will never dispute it even if flipped, and the availability of checks by Mordin and Chakwas, or the engineering expertise of Tali?


[quote]
I mean there is no reason to let the alliance check on all the implants etc, we just assume everything is ok. And the Normandy.[/quote]There are reasons not to, however. Like being free to address the Collector and Reaper threat, rather than in a cell for seven monthes and then released only to find the best toys taken away.

[quote]Well there is certainly no need to let the Alliance check the systems and AI if TIM has put any suprises in there. After all TIM is, as I said, quite the trustworthy guy.[/quote]Since that is exactly what happens once Shepard returns to the Alliance... your attempt at flippancy is a flop.

[quote]
Are you really telling me that what Shep does after his revival makes sense? It only makes sense for a Renegade Shep who never thought much of the Alliance or Council anyway and who would rather trust TIM. I mean Shep could as well be a running time bomb and TIM holding the trigger without anyone even thinking of it. Same with the Normandy. They have a ****ing illegal AI on board and all they do about is giving Shepard a line that shows that he doesn't like AIs but then we go over to business as usually because obviously we have no options to remove the AI or whatever.[/quote]
Shepard making a partnership with Cerberus makes sense. People not trusting Shepard after making a partnership with Cerberus makes sense. Shepard not destroying everything on board and killing half the crew in the name of player agency after agreeing to a partnership makes sense in the context of a partnership.

Things could be handled better, but the premise of Cerberus cooperation is not a fatal flaw like the not believing in Collectors was. Many of your concerns and objections are actually met in the game, while plenty of means to mitigate your other fears (like a bomb in the stomach) have multiple explanations for being resolved without needing to be raised.


[quote]
Sorry but after ME1 the story just stopped making sense. I don't know what else to say if you can't see that. [/quote]
That you confuse a plot you didn't want and like for a plot that has internal consistency.

[quote]
Shepard should have returned to the alliance, [/quote]The Alliance wasn't addressing the Reaper problem or the colonies now.

[quote]
should have ordered to check the Normandy, [/quote]This would have weakened the efforts to work with the alliance established above.

[quote]
check himself and his implants [/quote]Shepard wouldn't have been free to leave in any relevant time.

[quote]
and decided with the Alliance/Council and maybe other Spectres what are the next steps. [/quote]The Alliance/Council position was already apparent, and Shepard's return would not and did not change it.

[quote]
But instead Shepard doesn't care,[/quote]Shepard can care.
[quote]
the Council doesn't care [/quote]About the only part that's correct, but not unreasonable by and large.

[quote]
and the Alliance doesn't care. [/quote]The Alliance does care.

[quote]
The only way this would make sense is when the Alliance/Council have an own project going on. If they knew everything about Shepard, Liara, the SB, Cerberus. I'm curious if we learn more in ME3 why nobody cares about obvious problems/threats in ME2 or if they will just go on like nothing happened.[/quote]It would also make sense if the Alliance and Council didn't believe in the Reapers, and doesn't want to get involved in the Terminus.

Now, while that first one is a shakey premise, as a foundation the rest builds on is not so much.

[Someone With Mass]

DJBare wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I am curious to know how injecting soldiers with thresher maw venom is going to help at all against the Reapers. 

I wonder how many unethical scientists will be clamouring to work for cerburus/, and all those aliens they will be able to experiment on, how about making a few more like David, ya know, just hook up more unwilling organics to machines, remember, I said unethical, the restraints would be lifted on illegal experiments with cerburus running the show, unethical scientists don't need a reason to see how bad bad can get.

Science. It's a hell of a drug.

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't think the dead krogan babies care....

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

That neglects that a lot of the experiments we see in game aren't in response to the Reaper threat. 
As far as I know (as someone who doesn't have the comics and books) there is reviving Shepard, Overlord and Paul Grayson getting indoctrinated. 

The Subject Zero experiments, blowing up an Eezo core in orbit, Threser Maws, Thorian Creepers and Rachni. All of these aren't a direct response to the Reaper threat. Yet these seem to be handled with handled with the same disregard for caution and methodology and using unwilling human test subjects. 

It just looks like Cerberus doesn't care about ethics or caution even when there isn't a threat to react to.

[Il Divo]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

True, but at the same time, we don't answer to each individual Salarian. In keeping with that, we're not giving the Collector Base to the total populations, but to the political powers of the galaxy, in this case the Council vs. Illusive Man.

Remember, much like your Salarian example, not every member of Cerberus is willing to engage in any kind of questionable scientific practice; they're designed into cells, not always aware of each other's existence. Jacob demonstrates that, and just looking at the majority of the Normandy SR2's crew (Gabby and Ken, Kelly, etc), they don't have the same mentality which we have come to associate with the mad scientist.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 janvier 2012 - 03:06 .

[incinerator950]

Il Divo wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

True, but at the same time, we don't answer to each individual Salarian. In keeping with that, we're not giving the Collector Base to the total populations, but to the political powers of the galaxy, in this case the Council vs. Illusive Man.

Remember, much like your Salarian example, not every member of Cerberus is willing to engage in any kind of questionable scientific practice; they're designed into cells, not always aware of each other's existence. Jacob demonstrates that, and just looking at the majority of the Normandy SR2's crew (Gabby and Ken, Kelly, etc), they don't have the same mentality which we have come to associate with the mad scientist.

Agreed

[DJBare]

Il Divo wrote...

True, but at the same time, we don't answer to each individual Salarian. In keeping with that, we're not giving the Collector Base to the total populations, but to the political powers of the galaxy, in this case the Council vs. Illusive Man.

No, you don't get the choice to give it to the council, it's either give to cerburus or blow it up, but personally if I were given that choice, I'd still blow it to hell, emotional?, hell yeah.

[Il Divo]

DJBare wrote...

No, you don't get the choice to give it to the council, it's either give to cerburus or blow it up, but personally if I were given that choice, I'd still blow it to hell, emotional?, hell yeah.

I'm aware. I'm referring to the hypothetical possibility of what happens if we were given a choice between TIM and the Council. My point is that it's not a discussion of entire populations, but of political factions and leaders.