1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Even if the Council was an option, I'd still blow it up.

Besides, Cerberus had their chance to prove that they're capable of handling such technology with that Reaper, and they screwed it up.

[BoboIII]

Personally, I never understood why keeping CB and trusted it with Cerberus is essential to win the reapers...

Firstly, it's primary function is to make new reapers and it's located behind enemy lines. First thought that comes to mind is to destroy it, at least for me...

Now we can argue that it contains useful data, like a gold mine of information about reapers. Someone here compared it to the top line tank factory. This is just part true. The station is fully automated with enslaved maintenance crew who also happens to bring in new raw material and that's it. There are no engineers in the station, no schematics (if there can even be a schematic on the reaper) and everything relevant is operated remotely via 'assuming control' by the reapers. Besides, during SM itself, EDI integrates/hacks station systems and downloads all relevant data. Heck, even on first touchdown EDI already has schematic of whole station so you can plan your mission. At this point, only reason you would want to keep the base intact would be to try to push the 'start' button and let it keep doing what it does. I would rather blow it up, tbh.

Behind the enemy lines. While it's true that on galaxy wide war there are no truly 'enemy lines' at the time of SM my Shepard considered it as such. At that time I had no way of knowing that any other ship can even reach CB as only Normandy had only known IFF at the time. Normandy, and the Reapers. My assessment is that, on reapers invasion, one of the first things they would try to do is to recapture CB. Of course, I can speculate that IFF can be reverse engineered and CB reinforced with fleet in time or it can be blown up later, when reapers actually attack but I would be assuming a lot given the data at the time. Also i can't know that collectors don't have entire fleet of ships just waiting to move in and retake their base or something. Too much is at stake and that particular moment while I'm in could be only chance to take it down. My tactical decision for the upcoming reapers invasion is to blow up only known reaper production facility in the galaxy.

It's also the matter of trust. Do I fully trust TIM? No. He was always keeping something from me, giving me partial info as he saw fit. That doesn't mean I would trust CB with turians or salarians or whatever. I wouldn't. If I would be forced to choose I would probably choose Alliance but that's not really relevant as my choice in any case is to simply destroy it.

At the end, it may sound strange, but keeping the base actually seems like paragon choice to me, like, you know keeping all, saving all, not blowing up things etc.

Just my opinion.

[OrdinaryTenant]

Cerberus was able to replicate/duplicate the Reaper IFF. Before the suicide mission even. It's how TIM exploits the base (or salvages it's remains) after ME2.

In the meantime, all evident resistance is neutralized and blowing the thing isn't exactly hard once you're at the right spot. So worrying about some other Reaper-allied force moving in to retake the base doesn't seem like all that much of a concern to me.

[LetMeW1n]

[quote]Nashiktal wrote...

[quote]LetMeW1n wrote...

Who gives a crab about the lives of everyone in the galaxy. We are all dead meat and bones anyway. Just very optimistic dead meat and bones. Optimistic about of choices, beliefs, those few extra years..

The reapers are right. They are ascending us away from this pointless existence. Just not in a way we would like or even understand. Not while we're still alive.

Lol just saying[/quote]

What? We understand how they are ascending us just fine. The problem is their "ascension" is pathetic. They have managed to survive this long, but their time is over. Their plans have been failing one after another, they lost their vanguard.

They are not gods. Just dangerous machines that can be beaten. They are not the ultimate evolution, there is no such thing. Their failure to adapt will be the cause of their fall.[/quote]

Not a reaper worshipper, lol sorry. Just that the previous post(page 42) was going at it pretty hard and I grabbed the only point I could make out in a simple scan-through and tried to trivialize it. O.o

Back to OP though. An organization with the size and motivations of Cerberus is bound to exist, given our 'individualistic' culture, history of risen and toppled tyrants, slave rebellions(bad example) and capacity for excellence in some  extraordinary individuals you kick it down and another will form in similar galactic situations for us. 

Maybe nowhere in the near future after ME3 though. But they are definitely a necessary evil here, all and all. Pretty much the result of our adaptation as a a society, and how we've survived as a species, and how we are going to in future emergencies. 

But they can't exist forever, or even in relatively peaceful times as their methods are probably too harsh for the consequences. Hopefully we'll get a better utopia than the reapers did.






[/quote]

[BoboIII]

OrdinaryTenant wrote...

Cerberus was able to replicate/duplicate the Reaper IFF. Before the suicide mission even. It's how TIM exploits the base (or salvages it's remains) after ME2.

In the meantime, all evident resistance is neutralized and blowing the thing isn't exactly hard once you're at the right spot. So worrying about some other Reaper-allied force moving in to retake the base doesn't seem like all that much of a concern to me.

TIM appareantly was able to replicate IFF but at the time I was in I didn't know that. If he was able to do it even before SM it just means he was feeding me with another lie sending me in as only I can do it etc. I can only conclude that he was trying to kill me sending me in alone (one ship against unknown). But it's really irelevant, I made my decision with given info at the time. If TIM lost CB cose of that, it's his fault as he could be straight with me in the first place.

All evident resistance that we know of is neutralized. We have no idea how many collectors are out there, how many ships are there or even if CB is their only base of operation.

Anyways, as with all tactical decisions, time will tell. It's easy to be general after the battle. I think I made the right call but yours could be better. I have no way of knowing anything for sure

[LetMeW1n]

Not sure why they are the enemy in ME3 though. Is it as simple as indoctrination or the illusive man thinking he had made a deal with the reapers? Sorry wasnt able to find any ideas without reading spoilers

[DJBare]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you'd had it your way you'd have just blown up the derelict without studying it and then where would you be?

Your argument will have to be better, the only thng required from the "derelict" is the IFF which can be pocketed, then if the choice had been given, blow it up, which is the choice my paragon would have made after seeing the husks and the dragons teeth.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

Not going to answer sentence by sentence. I can agree that it is like the Ilos situation. When Shep kidnapped the Normandy. But it is a bit different. Shep is more or less forced into service of Cerberus, a supposed terrorist or at least illegal organisation. Shep's brough back from the dead and before he's even got time to figure out what is going on he just accepts a mission for TIM who claims stuff of which Shep has no clue if they are even true. You don't even get the choice to say 'TIM, **** you. I am not going to lift a finger for you.'. Ilos was Shep's decision without anyone telling him what to do. But this is different. TIM could have sent Shep on god knows what mission and have Shep ending up being part of one of the many atrocities they caused in the past and thus really become an outlaw. Especially bad considering the posibility what kind of implants he has or what surprises the new Normandy may hold that Shep knows nothing about.
 
The first thing after you return from the dead would usually be to get up to date, meet people you know/trust, etc. Not just jump on a mission for the shadiest person in the galaxy without really much info. I mean Shep was out for 2 years. How did he even know it was a colony and not a secret alliance project/base. I don't know it seems pretty silly to just rush into things with next to no information. Not that it would be unlike Shepard, but still. I assume if you return from the dead after 2 years you first want to know what exactly is going on.

Something that always bothered me is that the first thing you do is not going back to the Council. Because that would be logical. I would go to the Council, to Liara. See how things are etc. Get the big picture. But when we eventually get to do that we are already considered 'Cerberus'. As in not really trustworthy. At least by the Council/Alliance. And when we learn that it's thanks to TIM's rumor spreading we again just accept it with a shrug. More or less. There are so many points in the game I would like to say goodbye TIM, was nice meeting you. But obviously you can't.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 29 janvier 2012 - 04:47 .

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Even if the Council was an option, I'd still blow it up.

Besides, Cerberus had their chance to prove that they're capable of handling such technology with that Reaper, and they screwed it up.

...but they got you the IFF which allowed you to stop the Collectors.

Actually they failed to get you the IFF.  Shepard had to go retrieve it.

[BoboIII]

LetMeW1n wrote...

Not sure why they are the enemy in ME3 though. Is it as simple as indoctrination or the illusive man thinking he had made a deal with the reapers? Sorry wasnt able to find any ideas without reading spoilers

I always believed that TIM did what he believed is right thing to do. I also always believed that he is in first stage of indoctrination. He has some of reaper tech in him after all...

Indoctrination is subtle. Indoctrinated people truly believe they are doing everything for their own, their species and whole galaxy benefit. Saren truly believed that he was doing the right thing. At the point people realize they are indoctrinated its to late to opose it, unfortunately.

So, i think TIM's indoctrination comes full out in ME3 or right before it. After that it's easy to imagine that majority of Cerberus is indoctrinated and that they believe they are doing the right thing, be it deal with reapers or whatever else.

Or we see some other explanation in M3

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Even if the Council was an option, I'd still blow it up.

Besides, Cerberus had their chance to prove that they're capable of handling such technology with that Reaper, and they screwed it up.

...but they got you the IFF which allowed you to stop the Collectors.

Actually they failed to get you the IFF.  Shepard had to go retrieve it.

They didn't bring it to your doorstep, but they did find it, identify it and extratc it. That is no small feat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
They're gone. It's done. Don't waste their life in vain. Focus on Reapers.

That was not my question, my question presupposes they still live, you have the power to send them to the pods for the best chance of beating the reapers, it's in your power, you as Shepard are the one making the call, I'll make it easier, they are part of a colony of a couple of thousand, and lets say it's lotions family amongst those colonists, you don't know them, they are complete strangers, no harm in sending strangers to the pods is there?

If there was no other way to defeat the reapers, I'd do it.
It would destroy me utterly and I would kill myself, but I'd do it.

There's not much to debate here - death of a few hundered or death of several trillions?

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

...but they got you the IFF which allowed you to stop the Collectors.

If you'd had it your way you'd have just blown up the derelict without studying it and then where would you be?

Again with the "If you had done so there, then you must do that with this thing as well, even though they are two very different scenarios" bull****.

If it was their goal to locate and retrieve the IFF, I doubt they'd have to go through that much work with establishing tech labs, airlocks and all that crap to do it.

Their goal seemed to be to examine the Reaper for whatever technology there is, just like with the Collector base if they acquire it. And they failed that. Horribly.

They didn't even retrieve the IFF fro TIM. Shepard had to go into the Reaper, shoot through their reanimated corpses and get the IFF himself and then disable the Reaper's core to get out, resulting in it crashing into a brown dwarf. That could have been avoided if the Cerberus crew had retrieved the IFF in the first place.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 29 janvier 2012 - 05:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

No they are not, they are preparing to take advantage of the situation no matter the cost, to become the dominant species in the galaxy, I guess you think their experiments will stop once the reapers have been defeated?

Can you prove they won't?
Seriously, what has Cerberus been doing for the last 20 years? Looks for a way to strengthen humantiy
When did Jack Harper start Cerberus? After finding out about the reapers.

TIM knows the reapers are coming. And we know he knows. If you dont' belive TIM does what he does to stop the reapers, whom do you belive at all?
Why do you belive the turian/Salarians unleashed the genophage because they had no choice? Sez who? Maybe they did it to preserve their positions as galactic superpowers?

Ican go on, but you are being awfully hypocritical.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

It still proves the slarian/Turial leadership si willing and able to commit attrocities bigger than anything Cerberus did.

And you going ot punish everyone in Cerberus for what TIM allegeldy does?

[OrdinaryTenant]

BoboIII wrote...

OrdinaryTenant wrote...

Cerberus was able to replicate/duplicate the Reaper IFF. Before the suicide mission even. It's how TIM exploits the base (or salvages it's remains) after ME2.

In the meantime, all evident resistance is neutralized and blowing the thing isn't exactly hard once you're at the right spot. So worrying about some other Reaper-allied force moving in to retake the base doesn't seem like all that much of a concern to me.

TIM appareantly was able to replicate IFF but at the time I was in I didn't know that. If he was able to do it even before SM it just means he was feeding me with another lie sending me in as only I can do it etc. I can only conclude that he was trying to kill me sending me in alone (one ship against unknown). But it's really irelevant, I made my decision with given info at the time. If TIM lost CB cose of that, it's his fault as he could be straight with me in the first place.

All evident resistance that we know of is neutralized. We have no idea how many collectors are out there, how many ships are there or even if CB is their only base of operation.

Anyways, as with all tactical decisions, time will tell. It's easy to be general after the battle. I think I made the right call but yours could be better. I have no way of knowing anything for sure

True enough, things might have gone differently if TIM had informed us that some form of backup or support was available.  Mind you I would not expect that support to be combat military in nature in the first place, after all if TIM had a force capable to taking on the Collectors in his back-pocket the whole time, what would have been the point of flying around the galaxy playing nursemaid to a bunch of dysfunctional weirdos with guns?

I always thought of the "Suicide Mission" as more of a recon mission myself.  With the primary objective being to stop the Collector attacks if at all possible, and the secondary objective or rescuing the Normandy crew, again, if at all possible.  After all know one knew what was on the other side of the O4 before Shepard went through. If it had been a whole planet or star-system with billions (or even trillions) of Collectors the Normandy by itself couldn't have done much anyway. 

Modifié par OrdinaryTenant, 29 janvier 2012 - 05:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't think the dead krogan babies care....

And Cerberus experimetns IS a reponse to an actual threat - the reapers. They push for quick results and use unethical methods because they know the Reapers could be knocking at Earths porch tomorrow.

That neglects that a lot of the experiments we see in game aren't in response to the Reaper threat. 
As far as I know (as someone who doesn't have the comics and books) there is reviving Shepard, Overlord and Paul Grayson getting indoctrinated. 

The Subject Zero experiments, blowing up an Eezo core in orbit, Threser Maws, Thorian Creepers and Rachni. All of these aren't a direct response to the Reaper threat. Yet these seem to be handled with handled with the same disregard for caution and methodology and using unwilling human test subjects. 

It just looks like Cerberus doesn't care about ethics or caution even when there isn't a threat to react to.

Reapers use ground troops. So better ground troops are also an asset agasint the reapers.
Not the most usefull one, but still..


Thorian Creepers - attempt to counter indoctriation?
Rachnni - cheap, expendable foor soldiers
etc....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Even if the Council was an option, I'd still blow it up.

Besides, Cerberus had their chance to prove that they're capable of handling such technology with that Reaper, and they screwed it up.

Shepard screwed it up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BoboIII wrote...

Personally, I never understood why keeping CB and trusted it with Cerberus is essential to win the reapers...

Firstly, it's primary function is to make new reapers and it's located behind enemy lines. First thought that comes to mind is to destroy it, at least for me...

So you honestly dont' see the advantages there?
It was building a reaper. Think about it or a second. If a repaer was built there, then a machinery to build a repaer is there. Reaper parts. Technology. The best technology reapers have in fact (as it goes into one).

You don't build a F22 in your garage with common equipment.
The CB is a gold mine. It's a bigger find than the prothean cache.

Now we can argue that it contains useful data, like a gold mine of information about reapers. Someone here compared it to the top line tank factory. This is just part true. The station is fully automated with enslaved maintenance crew who also happens to bring in new raw material and that's it. There are no engineers in the station, no schematics (if there can even be a schematic on the reaper) and everything relevant is operated remotely via 'assuming control' by the reapers. Besides, during SM itself, EDI integrates/hacks station systems and downloads all relevant data. Heck, even on first touchdown EDI already has schematic of whole station so you can plan your mission. At this point, only reason you would want to keep the base intact would be to try to push the 'start' button and let it keep doing what it does. I would rather blow it up, tbh.

Since when do you know so much of the CB?
EDI had a basic layout of hte station - which isn't hard with scans. But there's a big difference between a for plan and actual schematics. If you ever held REAL schematics of a veichle or building in hand, you'd know.

You also assume EDI hacked everything there is to hack and got everything there is to get. Which is also unlikely.
Actually, the opposite would be more likely.

Behind the enemy lines. While it's true that on galaxy wide war there are no truly 'enemy lines' at the time of SM my Shepard considered it as such. At that time I had no way of knowing that any other ship can even reach CB as only Normandy had only known IFF at the time. Normandy, and the Reapers. My assessment is that, on reapers invasion, one of the first things they would try to do is to recapture CB. Of course, I can speculate that IFF can be reverse engineered and CB reinforced with fleet in time or it can be blown up later, when reapers actually attack but I would be assuming a lot given the data at the time. Also i can't know that collectors don't have entire fleet of ships just waiting to move in and retake their base or something. Too much is at stake and that particular moment while I'm in could be only chance to take it down. My tactical decision for the upcoming reapers invasion is to blow up only known reaper production facility in the galaxy.

Dude, you can blow up the base with a single small bomb attached to the core. How hard would it be to add a remote control to it?
You cna blow hte base up at ANY TIME without problem.
And mind you, there arne't any reapers there now. Get what you can out of it first before blowing it up.
You are jumping hte gun by a huge margin here.

and by blowing it up you're denying a vital resource ot yourself. A resource that is of insignificant importance to the reaepr war effort, but could make all the difference to yours. Even if hte reaper were to re-capture the base, it hardly affects your chances in the war at all.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shepard screwed it up.

They screwed up, because they didn't deliver the IFF to TIM or Shepard. Had they done that, Shepard wouldn't have had gone into that Reaper to begin with.

Besides, they're the ones who all got indoctrinated and turned into husks, resulting in the whole problem
to begin, since Shepard went there to retrieve the IFF and because the science team didn't respond.

They set the events in motion that lead to the loss of one of the greatest discoveries in mankind's history, not Shepard.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you'd had it your way you'd have just blown up the derelict without studying it and then where would you be?

Your argument will have to be better, the only thng required from the "derelict" is the IFF which can be pocketed, then if the choice had been given, blow it up, which is the choice my paragon would have made after seeing the husks and the dragons teeth.

Seems that "blow up any usefull resource cause I?m too afraid to try and make use of it" is your default reponse to everything.

You have a giant floting proof of reaper existance... a treasure trove of technology that could turn the tide fo war and catapult your race hunderds of years ahead.....and you blow it up???

Ever tough of...ya know...showing it to the council? Or calling the news agencies of the galaxy and show it to them (because the council is stupid and would probably try to cover it up)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

...but they got you the IFF which allowed you to stop the Collectors.

If you'd had it your way you'd have just blown up the derelict without studying it and then where would you be?

Again with the "If you had done so there, then you must do that with this thing as well, even though they are two very different scenarios" bull****.

If it was their goal to locate and retrieve the IFF, I doubt they'd have to go through that much work with establishing tech labs, airlocks and all that crap to do it.

Their goal seemed to be to examine the Reaper for whatever technology there is, just like with the Collector base if they acquire it. And they failed that. Horribly.

They didn't even retrieve the IFF fro TIM. Shepard had to go into the Reaper, shoot through their reanimated corpses and get the IFF himself and then disable the Reaper's core to get out, resulting in it crashing into a brown dwarf. That could have been avoided if the Cerberus crew had retrieved the IFF in the first place.

Tech labs and airlocks are pretty much NECESSARY. And those thigns are modular and easy to install. I odnt' know what drug's you're on really....

Tehy didn't fail. Tehy found hte IFF. A small device within a 2KM long reaper. That's troughly 40 million m^3 to sift trough. Filled with other devices. Alien devices. Which oyu have to examine determine the purpose. And then find a way to extract safely.
The Cerberus team did everything except gift wrap it and send it shep via post. You find it all ready for you.

The only faliure there is Sheaprd..and you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shepard screwed it up.

They screwed up, because they didn't deliver the IFF to TIM or Shepard. Had they done that, Shepard wouldn't have had gone into that Reaper to begin with.

Tehy found it and extracted it and placed it on a nice pedistal for Sheaprd.
you deliberately ingore how monumental that task was in itself...

Besides, they're the ones who all got indoctrinated and turned into husks, resulting in the whole problem
to begin, since Shepard went there to retrieve the IFF and because the science team didn't respond.

Because shepard is immune to indoctrination and could have done a lot better? Yeah sure.
I like you. You funny.

They set the events in motion that lead to the loss of one of the greatest discoveries in mankind's history, not Shepard.

No, Shep set the evetns by blowing the ezoo core.

[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If there was no other way to defeat the reapers, I'd do it.
It would destroy me utterly and I would kill myself, but I'd do it.

There's not much to debate here - death of a few hundered or death of several trillions?

See, you skirted again by using "if", the whole argument is centered around the possibility of other options, "if" there is no other way means you are considering other options.

At least your not a hypocrite, just glad your not the president.