1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

I'm just going to write off your very poorly spelled rant as being in denial, since the evidence is there.

They were the ones falling for the Reaper's indoctrination, not Shepard. They were the ones who didn't complete their mission (free hint: when you're supposed to deliver a package to someone, you don't just wrap it up and leave it on a table in your own house and wait for them to come and get it. That defeats the purpose of delivering things) and got themselves killed.

It's just sad when you want to stamp Shepard as being the ****** who always gets and does things wrong, when it's painfully obvious who's fault it was in the first place.

[Peer of the Empire]

DJBare wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you'd had it your way you'd have just blown up the derelict without studying it and then where would you be?

Your argument will have to be better, the only thng required from the "derelict" is the IFF which can be pocketed, then if the choice had been given, blow it up, which is the choice my paragon would have made after seeing the husks and the dragons teeth.

There would have been no IFF, your paragon if given the choice would've blown it up before studying it

[BoboIII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BoboIII wrote...

Personally, I never understood why keeping CB and trusted it with Cerberus is essential to win the reapers...

Firstly, it's primary function is to make new reapers and it's located behind enemy lines. First thought that comes to mind is to destroy it, at least for me...

So you honestly dont' see the advantages there?
It was building a reaper. Think about it or a second. If a repaer was built there, then a machinery to build a repaer is there. Reaper parts. Technology. The best technology reapers have in fact (as it goes into one).

You don't build a F22 in your garage with common equipment.
The CB is a gold mine. It's a bigger find than the prothean cache.

Now we can argue that it contains useful data, like a gold mine of information about reapers. Someone here compared it to the top line tank factory. This is just part true. The station is fully automated with enslaved maintenance crew who also happens to bring in new raw material and that's it. There are no engineers in the station, no schematics (if there can even be a schematic on the reaper) and everything relevant is operated remotely via 'assuming control' by the reapers. Besides, during SM itself, EDI integrates/hacks station systems and downloads all relevant data. Heck, even on first touchdown EDI already has schematic of whole station so you can plan your mission. At this point, only reason you would want to keep the base intact would be to try to push the 'start' button and let it keep doing what it does. I would rather blow it up, tbh.

Since when do you know so much of the CB?
EDI had a basic layout of hte station - which isn't hard with scans. But there's a big difference between a for plan and actual schematics. If you ever held REAL schematics of a veichle or building in hand, you'd know.

You also assume EDI hacked everything there is to hack and got everything there is to get. Which is also unlikely.
Actually, the opposite would be more likely.

Behind the enemy lines. While it's true that on galaxy wide war there are no truly 'enemy lines' at the time of SM my Shepard considered it as such. At that time I had no way of knowing that any other ship can even reach CB as only Normandy had only known IFF at the time. Normandy, and the Reapers. My assessment is that, on reapers invasion, one of the first things they would try to do is to recapture CB. Of course, I can speculate that IFF can be reverse engineered and CB reinforced with fleet in time or it can be blown up later, when reapers actually attack but I would be assuming a lot given the data at the time. Also i can't know that collectors don't have entire fleet of ships just waiting to move in and retake their base or something. Too much is at stake and that particular moment while I'm in could be only chance to take it down. My tactical decision for the upcoming reapers invasion is to blow up only known reaper production facility in the galaxy.

Dude, you can blow up the base with a single small bomb attached to the core. How hard would it be to add a remote control to it?
You cna blow hte base up at ANY TIME without problem.
And mind you, there arne't any reapers there now. Get what you can out of it first before blowing it up.
You are jumping hte gun by a huge margin here.

and by blowing it up you're denying a vital resource ot yourself. A resource that is of insignificant importance to the reaepr war effort, but could make all the difference to yours. Even if hte reaper were to re-capture the base, it hardly affects your chances in the war at all.

Dude, i had actual schematics of building in my hands, actually I make floor designs as proffession. I know that much that you can't know and plan your mission with knowing that you have to go on specific routes and hack specific doors to reach your goal based on general layout plan. You need to have more specific plans and security schematics wich you then dumb down into simple schematic for the sake of mission planing. And that is on first Nomandy touch down on CB. EDI is working during whole mission behind the scene.

Sure, I can't know if EDI downloaded all that can be downloaded but my best hope is that most important info is there. I'm not pretending that no more data could be extracted if CB is kept but considering the risks as I explained in my original post, I'll take the chance and blow it up.

Yes, CB can be destroyed remotly at any time, unless person who needs to press the button is indoctrinated in that particular moment of need. Given the history of indoctrination and reaper tech it's VERY likely to happen. All I know for sure is that I'm there, I learned as much as I can about it and it may very wel be the only chance to take it down. I'll take it.

If CB is meaningless for the reapers it's also meaningless for me. If CB contains any crucial data there would be no way in universe for a single ship with hadfull of crew to take it down. No matter how you put it. By the way, since is operated remotely, all systems can be purged of all data that can be used against reapers at any time.

Anyways, I did my choice and you did yours. Who is right and who is wrong I have no way of knowing for sure till the end of ME3.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

True, but that doesn't change the actions which occurred. Unless you are asserting that TIM's only goal in any of these sick experiments was for fun, I think (based on our interactions with him) we can conclude there's always a greater plan in sight. It may be human-focused, but he has motivation. TIM simply doesn't take the time to mourn over the hard choices, which I think speaks to his resolve more than his cruelty. Ultimately, in terms of actions, we can look at the Salarians and Turians as having caused greater atrocities than all of Cerberus put together.

Advancing a primitive race before their time to fight an enemy you can't defeat, then turning around and infecting them with a sterility plague is getting a tad close to genocide. Even worse, since you're responsible for introducing them to your conflict.

That's also why I'm somewhat skeptical of these claims regarding how Bioware transformed Cerberus in ME2. Not to fall back to the shades of grey analogy, but anyone can be made to look like a villain when painted as such from a certain point of view. That includes Cerberus.

I think it's more than that.  I think it's more like how Anderson described Saren:  :Sometimes a thousand people have to die so a million can live, but only if there's no other way.  Saren doesn't even look for other options"  

The Illusive Man is much the same:  he doesn't seem inclined to look for other alternatives, he just bulls ahead, achieving victory by climbing over a pile of corpses.  Either through maliciously experimenting on unsuspecting and/or unwilling civilians, or through callus disregard for his own people's safety.  Either way, many more people get hurt of killed than are needed.

I certainly don't condone the genophage, but through Mordin, we do see that it was not a decision taken lightly, that other options were in fact weighed before the genophage option was taken as the "least bad".  We can't say the same for the Illusive Man. 

And yes, Cerberus was painted as a villain in the first game.  The second has you working alongside them and attempt to make them seem more morally grey.  They failed at that even as they succeeded with Mordin.  Cerberus experiments were brushed off as "cells going rogue", "mistakes" or not even addressed at all.  Mordin and the genophage was shown as being a necessary (to the Council's eyes) step to stop the krogan.  One can argue fthe morality or necessity from either side.  How does one justify the treatment of Corporal Toombs?  What greater disaster did his suffering prevent?  

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm just going to write off your very poorly spelled rant as being in denial, since the evidence is there.

Oh? I must have missed it then.

They were the ones falling for the Reaper's indoctrination, not Shepard. They were the ones who didn't complete their mission (free hint: when you're supposed to deliver a package to someone, you don't just wrap it up and leave it on a table in your own house and wait for them to come and get it. That defeats the purpose of delivering things) and got themselves killed.

They located, identified and extracted it. That is a big thing in itself. Which you refuse to acknowledge, sicne you don't want to give Cerberus any credit for anything.
You don't know the precautions were taken nor why they failed.

Fact is - no one has a defense agaisnt indoctrination. No one even knew a "dead" reaper could indoctrinate.
If you think Shep could have done better...actuall wait, we know he couldn't. The moron didn't even take the most basic precautions when boarding hte Collector vessel.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If there was no other way to defeat the reapers, I'd do it.
It would destroy me utterly and I would kill myself, but I'd do it.

There's not much to debate here - death of a few hundered or death of several trillions?

See, you skirted again by using "if", the whole argument is centered around the possibility of other options, "if" there is no other way means you are considering other options.

At least your not a hypocrite, just glad your not the president.

I'm glad you're not.
You'd let a highjacked plane filled wiht bio-gas infect  the popualtion rather than shoot it down.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BoboIII wrote...
Sure, I can't know if EDI downloaded all that can be downloaded but my best hope is that most important info is there. I'm not pretending that no more data could be extracted if CB is kept but considering the risks as I explained in my original post, I'll take the chance and blow it up.

Probably not. Thre's multiple terminals and the ssot suculent data would be on te most secure ones.
I doubt even EDI can crack those, given that they are protected by an actual reaper.

Yes, CB can be destroyed remotly at any time, unless person who needs to press the button is indoctrinated in that particular moment of need. Given the history of indoctrination and reaper tech it's VERY likely to happen. All I know for sure is that I'm there, I learned as much as I can about it and it may very wel be the only chance to take it down. I'll take it.

Indoctrination doesnt' happen instantly. It takes days..weeks. the second the reapers arrive, you can blow it up. It is impossible for someoen to be indoctrinated so fast. Also, backups.
If you really want to blow it up, no one can stop you. Not even the reaeprs.

If CB is meaningless for the reapers it's also meaningless for me. If CB contains any crucial data there would be no way in universe for a single ship with hadfull of crew to take it down. No matter how you put it. By the way, since is operated remotely, all systems can be purged of all data that can be used against reapers at any time.

It's meaningles to the reapers, it's not meaningles to us. Because it doesn't have the same importance and gravitas.
For the reapers - of what use is it to them once they arrive. Thousands of reapers going around, killing everyone. They don't need the base at that point. There is no real benefit for them.

For us there is a huge benefit, in capturing all the nice tech. And mind you not just data - but actual working examples. Those are worth far more than just data.
And manufacturing equipment. Can't forget that.

Caputing te plans for a F22, capturing plans + manufactuing equipment....not the same. Not even close. For once, you'd spend a lot of time trying to re-create the manufacturing tech alone - jsut to build one F22.

Not to mention that blueprintd/plans are never compelte as they often depend on other components that aren't included into plans.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...

I think it's more than that.  I think it's more like how Anderson described Saren:  :Sometimes a thousand people have to die so a million can live, but only if there's no other way.  Saren doesn't even look for other options"  

The Illusive Man is much the same:  he doesn't seem inclined to look for other alternatives, he just bulls ahead, achieving victory by climbing over a pile of corpses.  Either through maliciously experimenting on unsuspecting and/or unwilling civilians, or through callus disregard for his own people's safety.  Either way, many more people get hurt of killed than are needed.

I certainly don't condone the genophage, but through Mordin, we do see that it was not a decision taken lightly, that other options were in fact weighed before the genophage option was taken as the "least bad".  We can't say the same for the Illusive Man.

You can't say he didn't weight other options either. You assume too much.

Mordin and the genophage was shown as being a necessary (to the Council's eyes) step to stop the krogan.  One can argue fthe morality or necessity from either side.  How does one justify the treatment of Corporal Toombs?  What greater disaster did his suffering prevent?

So they say. But then again, if i did commit genocide, I'd to try to convince everyone it was necessary.
The US told Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary. The fire bombing of germany was necessary.

[Iakus]

Dangit, post got eaten.  Okay, abreviated version:

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
 For information, among other things, how thresher acid worked..  Ergo "torture"[/quote]Ergo umpalumpah, if you want to selectively hear things. The information they were seeking isn't something Toombs knew and they were getting him to divulge until he told them.

Ergo, unethical science experiment, not interrogation.[/quote]

That's a very narrow definition of torture:
tor·ture   /ˈtɔrtʃər/ Show Spelled [tawr-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing. noun 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty. 2. a method of inflicting such pain. 3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone. 4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony. 5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
verb (used with object) 6. to subject to torture. 7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me. 8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips! 9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms. 10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).



[quote]
If you frame the problem as 'we need to see how well a cutting-edge military unit would do when taken by surprise, just like our colony', foreknowledge would risk the objective but total casualties wouldn't be an intent. 

The desired end state could be 'modern tactics and equipment make Thresher Maws a negligable threat.' The Cerberus trap could well have wanted a victory by the Akuze group.[/quote]

So instead of running simulations, observing the area, studying the threshers from a distance to see what they're capable of, they stake out fifty human marines like goats to see how they react.

But they're rooting for the marines, so it's okay.


[quote]
What lie?  He was injected with thresher venom.  To see what would happen.  That's not nice.
[/quote]And we're back to assigning intent without knowledge. There is a difference between open ended 'cause stimuli, see what happens' with no idea what follows versus a targetted experiment with predicted intents. [/quote]

Toombs disagrees.  Either way, he's getting injected with thresher venom against his will.  Cerberus' intentions matter not at all to him.


[quote]
[quote]
So Cerberus will kidnap you and kill you painfully over several years of unethical medical experimentation.  But they have a really really good reason for it?

Yeah that's much better than someone who'll do the same thing just for the lolz:mellow:[/quote]An American soldier will blow up your house. A terrorist will blow up your house. The reasons behind it are what distinguish the two.[/quote]

Either way, you're homeless.

[quote]
If you intend to make an absolute 'anyone who does this is evil', that's your perogative. But I'm not convinced you'll hold that equally: you've yet to utter one word about the Council, who reserves the right to do anything and everything Cerberus has done legally and has set up the institutions to do it. Torture, lawless and unethical sciences and even slavery, assassinations, bioweapons on enemies... the Council system makes caveats to allow these things, and they do happen. And in great scale than Cerberus.[/quote]

I haven't mentioned the Council because this is a thread about Cerberus.  But if you want my opinion:

The Council is an arrogant, self-absorbed, apathetic organization that's stagnating politically, technologically, and culturally.  They are the only check on the power of the Specters, and given Saren, Tela Vasir, and the  more renedouche Shepards, they can't even be bothered with that responsibility.  As long as the status quo is maintained, they're content to just hang out on the Citadel fat, dumb and happy.

However, the bad stuff the Council has perpetuated is largely due to them not standing up and doing their jobs.  The bad stuff perpetuated by Cerberus is in fact, them doing their jobs.


[quote]
It does, however, distinguish him from the Joker or any of the nihilist villains who might just like to watch the world burn. The question is always 'is it worth it to work with them', and that depends on their objectives and desires.[/quote]

Intentions matter.  But so do actions.  Otherwise intentions are just lip service to justify atrocities.

"It all seemed harmless"
[quote]
Cerberus didn't work with Shepard in ME2 because it was the end of the world. The Collectors were not an existential threat. No one else viewed them as a significant threat at all. We still considered them a problem worth making unpleasant allies for.[/quote]

And if Cerberus made no bones about what they've done in the past, but presented them as necessary actions, I could respect that.  If not agree.

I always thought Cerberus agents and TIM in particular should have been more like the Operative in Serenity:

"I'm a monster.  What I do is evil.  I have no illusions about it.  But it must be done"

The problem is, with Cerberus, we have no idea why they do these things.  Why lure marines into thresher nests?  Why experiment on the suvivor?  Why leave a team on board a partially-functioning Reaper without safeguards against indoctrination?  Why have at least two projects "gone rogue" when the Illusive Man maintains personal oversight on all active projects?

Cerberus is trying to present themselves as morally grey but all I see is a lot of needless death and, yes, torture.

[Iakus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You can't say he didn't weight other options either. You assume too much.

If the game wants me to to see him as morally grey, but not show the reasoning behind torturous experiments and murder he allowed to happen (and perhaps ordered), how am I supposed to arrive at that conclusion?  I can only operate on the evidence presented to me.  

If I see a guy with a bloody knife standing over a corpse, show me that he isn't the killer.

So they say. But then again, if i did commit genocide, I'd to try to convince everyone it was necessary.
The US told Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary. The fire bombing of germany was necessary.

And you can have several conversations with Mordin where Shepard can doubt the necessity of the genophage.  And finally even Mordin admits that it's "ethically difficult"

The point isn't that the genophage is or isn't a good thing.  I find it a great example of a "morally grey" action.  And part of it is because we see multiple sides of the debate.  We hear the resoning behind the choice, and detractors as well.

With Cerberus, we hear precious little of that regarding their actions.

[BoboIII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BoboIII wrote...
Sure, I can't know if EDI downloaded all that can be downloaded but my best hope is that most important info is there. I'm not pretending that no more data could be extracted if CB is kept but considering the risks as I explained in my original post, I'll take the chance and blow it up.

Probably not. Thre's multiple terminals and the ssot suculent data would be on te most secure ones.
I doubt even EDI can crack those, given that they are protected by an actual reaper.

Yes, CB can be destroyed remotly at any time, unless person who needs to press the button is indoctrinated in that particular moment of need. Given the history of indoctrination and reaper tech it's VERY likely to happen. All I know for sure is that I'm there, I learned as much as I can about it and it may very wel be the only chance to take it down. I'll take it.

Indoctrination doesnt' happen instantly. It takes days..weeks. the second the reapers arrive, you can blow it up. It is impossible for someoen to be indoctrinated so fast. Also, backups.
If you really want to blow it up, no one can stop you. Not even the reaeprs.

If CB is meaningless for the reapers it's also meaningless for me. If CB contains any crucial data there would be no way in universe for a single ship with hadfull of crew to take it down. No matter how you put it. By the way, since is operated remotely, all systems can be purged of all data that can be used against reapers at any time.

It's meaningles to the reapers, it's not meaningles to us. Because it doesn't have the same importance and gravitas.
For the reapers - of what use is it to them once they arrive. Thousands of reapers going around, killing everyone. They don't need the base at that point. There is no real benefit for them.

For us there is a huge benefit, in capturing all the nice tech. And mind you not just data - but actual working examples. Those are worth far more than just data.
And manufacturing equipment. Can't forget that.

Caputing te plans for a F22, capturing plans + manufactuing equipment....not the same. Not even close. For once, you'd spend a lot of time trying to re-create the manufacturing tech alone - jsut to build one F22.

Not to mention that blueprintd/plans are never compelte as they often depend on other components that aren't included into plans.

You have a point. To a some degree. If I want to build F22 i need plans and manufacturing facility for it for sure. But if I want to find a weak spot on F22 to take it down i don't need to build one, schematics are all I need. In CB case, I don't want, even remotly, to build one reaper.

As for nice tech. There probably is a lot of nice tech there, collector tech, which most likely don't represent reaper tech or it's greatly simplified and adapted to collectors. During entire mission I didn't saw any reaper part lying around or had any indication that there could be any except the baby reaper itself. Given how technology and production in ME universe works, reaper parts are most likely produced via some kind of omni-tool like procedure on spot or directly sintesized in the reaper itself, based on the blueprints in the system.

Those blueprints are either downloaded by EDI or deleted by Harbringer if blueprints where there at all, considering that Harbringer could very well remotely upload data for specific part when it's needed and delete it right after it's done. Either way, I have relevant data or relevant data aren't there at all, especially after Harbringer releases control. Reapers may be arogant and what not, but they are not that stupid to leave any relevant data in the hands of enemy just like that.

Do I need baby reaper to study weak spots on an actual reaper? Don't think so. It's missing it's outer shell for instance. It would be like studiying human body to find it's weak spots not considering that in actual combat that human body will also be protected by armour and kinetic barriers... Besides I gunned it down on foot, not exactly what I would expect from an actual reaper.

Besides, there is no indication before or during a mission that CB can be used for manufacturing anything else then a reaper and that by blending live specimen into a goo.

Thats my reasoning, mind you. It's not a canon, it's just my take on it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...
Either way, you're homeless.

Then there is no difference between the genophage and whatever Cerberus did?

And if Cerberus made no bones about what they've done in the past, but presented them as necessary actions, I could respect that.  If not agree.

I always thought Cerberus agents and TIM in particular should have been more like the Operative in Serenity:

"I'm a monster.  What I do is evil.  I have no illusions about it.  But it must be done"

Doesn't he?

He mentiones taking calculated risks. He did say "No one wants/likes to make these kind of decisions".
Doesn't that imply he doesn't like it himself?

At no point does he claim to be a paragon of morality...

Why leave a team on board a partially-functioning Reaper without safeguards against indoctrination?

How do you know that there weresn't safeguards, only they failed?
Are you forgetting that no one knows almost anything about indoctrination?

 Why have at least two projects "gone rogue" when the Illusive Man maintains personal oversight on all active projects?

Stranger things have happened in Real Life. TIM is jsut one man, running an entire organization.
There is no perfect oversight. There will be cracks.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]BoboIII wrote...

You have a point. To a some degree. If I want to build F22 i need plans and manufacturing facility for it for sure. But if I want to find a weak spot on F22 to take it down i don't need to build one, schematics are all I need. In CB case, I don't want, even remotly, to build one reaper.[/quote]

And with what you're gonna take it down?
The 'mahinery there can be used for many things. Faster and more efficient shipbuilding? Wouldn't that be a huge boon

And mind you - you can learn a lot about the F22 from that machinery alone. And even more about general shipbuilding.

[quote]
As for nice tech. There probably is a lot of nice tech there, collector tech, which most likely don't represent reaper tech or it's greatly simplified and adapted to collectors. During entire mission I didn't saw any reaper part lying around or had any indication that there could be any except the baby reaper itself. Given how technology and production in ME universe works, reaper parts are most likely produced via some kind of omni-tool like procedure on spot or directly sintesized in the reaper itself, based on the blueprints in the system.[/quote]

The base is enormeous.
Did you see how small the Collector ship was in comparison? During the entire missioon, you didn't even see 0.01% of the entire thing.

And mind you - a full repeaer was built there. Not just the core.


[quote]
Either way, I have relevant data or relevant data aren't there at all,[/quote]

How the hell do you know that?
I doubt EDI picked up even a 10th of data in the base. And I know a thing or two about data mining.


[quote]
Reapers may be arogant and what not, but they are not that stupid to leave any relevant data in the hands of enemy just like that.[/qutoe]

By that logic, EDI should have found nothing, no? They would have purged the data as soon as the Normandy arrived.

[quote]
Do I need baby reaper to study weak spots on an actual reaper? Don't think so. It's missing it's outer shell for instance. It would be like studiying human body to find it's weak spots not considering that in actual combat that human body will also be protected by armour and kinetic barriers... Besides I gunned it down on foot, not exactly what I would expect from an actual reaper.[/quote]

It's outer shell was being built there too...


[quote]
Besides, there is no indication before or during a mission that CB can be used for manufacturing anything else then a reaper and that by blending live specimen into a goo.
[/quote]

Why should it? A shipyard can be used ot make all kinds of ship. And mind you - that's what a CB is. A giant shipyard.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You can't say he didn't weight other options either. You assume too much.

If the game wants me to to see him as morally grey, but not show the reasoning behind torturous experiments and murder he allowed to happen (and perhaps ordered), how am I supposed to arrive at that conclusion?  I can only operate on the evidence presented to me.  

If I see a guy with a bloody knife standing over a corpse, show me that he isn't the killer.

Except that tehy don't.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
You ASSUME TIM doesn't search for options. But there is no evidence to confirm it.

With Cerberus, we hear precious little of that regarding their actions.

True, TIM doesn't debate with you there.
But if that's the case why automaticly assume the worst?

bottom point, there is no evidence for or against.

[Iakus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then there is no difference between the genophage and whatever Cerberus did?

Probably not to the krogan, no.

Doesn't he?

He mentiones taking calculated risks. He did say "No one wants/likes to make these kind of decisions".
Doesn't that imply he doesn't like it himself?

At no point does he claim to be a paragon of morality...

He'd probably have to take fewer risks if he took better care of his personel 

And no, he doens't claim to be a great moral leader.  But he does claim to care about humanity.  The body count he leaves, without any mitigating circumstances, say otherwise.

 How do you know that there weresn't safeguards, only they failed?
Are you forgetting that no one knows almost anything about indoctrination?

Because no safeguards are mentioned?

And based on the recordings, the operatives were acting weird for some time before they got husklified.  No one thought to retrieve them?  Replace them with bots?  Heck for all we know TIM deliberately left them there to see what would happen.

Stranger things have happened in Real Life. TIM is jsut one man, running an entire organization.
There is no perfect oversight. There will be cracks.

Of course there will be cracks.  But the reason only a dozen operations max are in place at a given time is because TIM thinks that's how many he an personally oversee.  And of those dozen, Overlord was decimated by their own project and Lazarus was nearly wiped out by a single rogue agent.  Those are substantial cracks.

[BoboIII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BoboIII wrote...

You have a point. To a some degree. If I want to build F22 i need plans and manufacturing facility for it for sure. But if I want to find a weak spot on F22 to take it down i don't need to build one, schematics are all I need. In CB case, I don't want, even remotly, to build one reaper.

And with what you're gonna take it down?
The 'mahinery there can be used for many things. Faster and more efficient shipbuilding? Wouldn't that be a huge boon

And mind you - you can learn a lot about the F22 from that machinery alone. And even more about general shipbuilding.

As for nice tech. There probably is a lot of nice tech there, collector tech, which most likely don't represent reaper tech or it's greatly simplified and adapted to collectors. During entire mission I didn't saw any reaper part lying around or had any indication that there could be any except the baby reaper itself. Given how technology and production in ME universe works, reaper parts are most likely produced via some kind of omni-tool like procedure on spot or directly sintesized in the reaper itself, based on the blueprints in the system.

The base is enormeous.
Did you see how small the Collector ship was in comparison? During the entire missioon, you didn't even see 0.01% of the entire thing.

And mind you - a full repeaer was built there. Not just the core.

Either way, I have relevant data or relevant data aren't there at all,

How the hell do you know that?
I doubt EDI picked up even a 10th of data in the base. And I know a thing or two about data mining.

Reapers may be arogant and what not, but they are not that stupid to leave any relevant data in the hands of enemy just like that.[/qutoe]

By that logic, EDI should have found nothing, no? They would have purged the data as soon as the Normandy arrived.

Do I need baby reaper to study weak spots on an actual reaper? Don't think so. It's missing it's outer shell for instance. It would be like studiying human body to find it's weak spots not considering that in actual combat that human body will also be protected by armour and kinetic barriers... Besides I gunned it down on foot, not exactly what I would expect from an actual reaper.

It's outer shell was being built there too...

Besides, there is no indication before or during a mission that CB can be used for manufacturing anything else then a reaper and that by blending live specimen into a goo.

Why should it? A shipyard can be used ot make all kinds of ship. And mind you - that's what a CB is. A giant shipyard.

Yes CB can be used for building ships but is it worth it's questionable. CB is not shipyard, no matter how it seem so, it's a reaper production line. It happens that reapers are also ships but how long it would take to reingeneer whole production line to build reapers that work without it's organic component? We don't even know how reapers exactly function in the first place. Not to mention that whole repurposing team would most likely end up indoctrinated long before they are even remotely finish with their work. Or simply turned into husks.

By the way, you missing my point with EDI. I'm not assuming EDI would mine all data that there is. I'm assuming Harbringer would delete all relevant data before releasing control. What EDI mined till then it's VERY likely it's all data that can be mined from CB.

Besides, in our time you can learn a lot about a product by examining it's production line, indeed. But we are talking about ME universe. When you have schematic of new sniper gun, you put it in your omni tool and you get brand new sniper gun. If you don't have schematic, you can have all the time in world to examine your omni tool but you will not learn anything about that sniper gun. Maybe it's not that simple but I hope you see my point.

By destroying CB, besides all I mentioned before, I'm also avoiding possible scenario in which Cerberus team gets indoctrinated and continues collectors work on building a human reaper...

Anyways, as I mentioned before, my decision to destroy CB may turn as complete mistake. It's a mistake I'll have to live with it with no looking back as my reasoning with given info and circumstances at a time seems solid, at least from my point of view.

Modifié par BoboIII, 29 janvier 2012 - 09:14 .

[Iakus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
You ASSUME TIM doesn't search for options. But there is no evidence to confirm it.

Cerberus is trying to convince me their actions are necessary.

The burden of proof is on them.

True, TIM doesn't debate with you there.
But if that's the case why automaticly assume the worst?

bottom point, there is no evidence for or against.

I assume the worst because I saw Cerberus experimenting on husks, thorians, and rachni.  I saw two Alliance bases destroyed and a listening post almost wiped out by rachni that got lose.

I saw a unit of marines wiped out by a thresher maw trap and met the survivor of another such trap who was subsequently experimented on for years afterwards

I found an Alliance admiral assassinated and his corpse dumped into a pen of creatures Cerberus was testing.

My crew includes a young woman who was taken from her family as an infant and exposed to cruel, torturous conditions for years in an attempt to create a powerful biotic.  And it turns out she wasn't even getting the worst of the treatment.

I also encountered a Cerberus scientist who exposed his own autistic brother to brutal tests in an attempt to create a weapon against the geth.

So yeah, I'm inclined to assume the worst .  If Cerberus can't be bothered to fill in the details, I'll have to draw my own conclusions.  Those conclusions aren't good.

Especially with this dialogue at the end of the Suicide Mission:

TIM:  This base is a gift.  We can't just destroy it
Shepard:  You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper
TIM: My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.

"At any cost?"  That's certainly not a denial.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...
Especially with this dialogue at the end of the Suicide Mission:

TIM:  This base is a gift.  We can't just destroy it
Shepard:  You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper
TIM: My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.

"At any cost?"  That's certainly not a denial.

The important part is bolded.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yes CB can be used for building ships but is it worth it's questionable. CB is not shipyard, no matter how it seem so, it's a reaper production line. It happens that reapers are also ships but how long it would take to reingeneer whole production line to build reapers that work without it's organic component? We don't even know how reapers exactly function in the first place. Not to mention that whole repurposing team would most likely end up indoctrinated long before they are even remotely finish with their work. Or simply turned into husks.

CB is a shipyard. Reapers are starships.

By the way, you missing my point with EDI. I'm not assuming EDI would mine all data that there is. I'm assuming Harbringer would delete all relevant data before releasing control. What EDI mined till then it's VERY likely it's all data that can be mined from CB.

Why could he wait? Wouldn't he delete any relevant data the second Sheps team reacehd the base?
If anything, it's far more likely EDI didn't get anything of value at all.
and hte mroe data is deleted, the more the base itself becoems valubale.

Besides, in our time you can learn a lot about a product by examining it's production line, indeed. But we are talking about ME universe. When you have schematic of new sniper gun, you put it in your omni tool and you get brand new sniper gun. If you don't have schematic, you can have all the time in world to examine your omni tool but you will not learn anything about that sniper gun. Maybe it's not that simple but I hope you see my point.

Since when do we produce guns from the omni-tool?

Omni-tool are capable of producing small, simple things IIRC.
you sure as hell arne't building a ship with it.

By destroying CB, besides all I mentioned before, I'm also avoiding possible scenario in which Cerberus team gets indoctrinated and continues collectors work on building a human reaper...

In which case Cerberus would call you in or send commandos or blow hte base..or any of the other hunderd ways to deal with it. But ways to deal with reapers...we have....erm....none?


Not to mention that Cerberus doesn't have a giant abducting ship, and that it couldnt' even compelte a huma nreaper in any sensible time frame.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 29 janvier 2012 - 11:22 .

[LetMeW1n]

Lol.. Yeah yeah, the CB(any sg here, btw?) should be saved, but in general i think Cerberus employs methods too extreme, secretive, unaccountable and irresponsible to be relevant anytime the reapers or the Batarian haegonomy(how do you spell this?) aren't invading. Not a terrorist group, of course, but that's also why they still exist and managed to get this big.

And I'm inclined to support the genophage in peacetime, too. It's a sterility plague, no dead krogan babies or fetuses. Sure, it was the salarians' fault for uplifting the krogan, and instead the krogan are paying for it now, but genophage is justifiable in peacetime. And cos I'm inclined to believe mordin when he says "sustainable population"

Maybe cultural genocide(no more all-out krogan wars, reformists like wrex), but not genocide genocide. Cerberus' methods should not exist at all, only that their methods can be justified during wartime. Other times, an organization of that clout can't be expected to remain honest. Not without any checks and balances, accountability and no qualms about doing real ****. It should not existed, but only in this context(reapers) im glad they do

Modifié par LetMeW1n, 29 janvier 2012 - 11:55 .

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

It still proves the slarian/Turial leadership si willing and able to commit attrocities bigger than anything Cerberus did.

And you going ot punish everyone in Cerberus for what TIM allegeldy does?

Everyone who joins Cerberus can be expected to be familiar with its reputation. There is reason to believe they're aware they're joining what has been designated a terrorist group and one that has done reprehensible things. There's a reason joining a terrorist group, or providing support to them, is an illegal act and that's because it's a choice to take part in their illegal operations even if you don't take direct action.

By contrast Salarians and Turians have no choice about their group membership. They're born into their families and raised among their communities. At times they agree with their leadership and sometimes they oppose it, but they never make a choice to join a species that created or implemented the genophage.

So yes. I'd support punishing everyone in Cerberus, they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

[Heimdall]

I don't really understand the assumption that there is data there to begin with. I mean, if Harbinger has learned anything from EDI's intrusion into the Collector ship he would have initiated a purge of relevant data the moment he realized Shepard was going to kill everything in the base.

In all likelihood, what EDI downloads during the fight is all there is to get.

Also, Reaper parts, weren't Reaper's supposed to be built from the organic goo of sentient species? Wasn't that the whole point of showing that in ME2?

On the subject of schematics, is it not so that Reapers are each unique, so each would have a unique schematic? Wouldn't the Collector base only have a schematic for the human Reaper if it had any schematics at all? What knowledge of Reaper structure could be gained that could not be gained on the Derelict Reaper? Either way the researchers have a very finite time limit before they become indoctrinated.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

iakus wrote...
Especially with this dialogue at the end of the Suicide Mission:

TIM:  This base is a gift.  We can't just destroy it
Shepard:  You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper
TIM: My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.

"At any cost?"  That's certainly not a denial.

The important part is bolded.

You know he could just have said his goal is to save the galaxy from the Reapers. Which would be the same effect, since the Reapers are a threat to the whole galaxy. That he says humanity speaks volumes. It is like he says 'I would preferably sacrifice non human species'. This line of thought is exactly why Shepard can unite the galaxy and TIM cannot.

[Heimdall]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes CB can be used for building ships but is it worth it's questionable. CB is not shipyard, no matter how it seem so, it's a reaper production line. It happens that reapers are also ships but how long it would take to reingeneer whole production line to build reapers that work without it's organic component? We don't even know how reapers exactly function in the first place. Not to mention that whole repurposing team would most likely end up indoctrinated long before they are even remotely finish with their work. Or simply turned into husks.

CB is a shipyard. Reapers are starships.

They are quite different from any sort of starship we've seen.  Their constructed from genetic goo.

[LetMeW1n]

I do agree that ways must be seeked constantly on how to end the genophage peacefully, through, on moral grounds. But in practality it can't be. Just as the keystone, okeer and maybe even wrex thinks, the genophage is a curse but they can live with it. I'm seeing a new krogan culture here, much more peaceful for the rest of us too.

But the salarians got to admit they owe them big time, a debt they have to admit and repay soon, maybe after the reapers. Just like how Cerberus has to end then. Anyway maybe in birth rate can be adjusted a bit higher, in my opinion.. Account for how the krogan like to kill themselves every now and then.

Edit: Genophage was during galaxy wide krogan rebellions as well, so by my reasoning, justified. But that debt has to be repaid in full in peacetime

Edit2: Err, that sounded wrong. I mean, this peaceful, if not very underhanded way to end the war was justified, but the salarians and turians should admit it is their fault instead of the krogans'

Modifié par LetMeW1n, 30 janvier 2012 - 12:23 .