1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Even if the Council was an option, I'd still blow it up.

Besides, Cerberus had their chance to prove that they're capable of handling such technology with that Reaper, and they screwed it up.

...but they got you the IFF which allowed you to stop the Collectors.

If you'd had it your way you'd have just blown up the derelict without studying it and then where would you be?

Different situations.

On the dead Reaper they knew what they were looking for, the IFF that would allow ships to pass through the Omega 4 Relay. Worth the risk, and it should have been possible to mitigate the risks given Cerberus knew about indoctrination. Things like keeping it tightly supervised, rotating staff off of the project in short order, monitoring communications. They could have taken scans and schematics from outside the ship and quick forays inside and then withdrawn to go over the plans and target likely spots for examination. When people started complaining about chronic headaches, and began sharing memories or otherwise acting abnormally they should have been pulled out and there findings should have been re-examined offsite.

The Collector Base was immense, active and virtually unreachable. As soon as the Normandy pops out of the relay it's already maneuvering through a graveyard of ships and another ship with another pilot likely wouldn't have made the trip safely. There's no way to know how much of the base was full of indoctrination gear, it's reasonable to assume that it's there to be installed on the infant reaper if it hadn't been built into the bases structure itself. Given how inaccessible the base is, the problems with supervision and logistics that they couldn't work out for the dead Reaper would have been amplified.

[BoboIII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes CB can be used for building ships but is it worth it's questionable. CB is not shipyard, no matter how it seem so, it's a reaper production line. It happens that reapers are also ships but how long it would take to reingeneer whole production line to build reapers that work without it's organic component? We don't even know how reapers exactly function in the first place. Not to mention that whole repurposing team would most likely end up indoctrinated long before they are even remotely finish with their work. Or simply turned into husks.

CB is a shipyard. Reapers are starships.

By the way, you missing my point with EDI. I'm not assuming EDI would mine all data that there is. I'm assuming Harbringer would delete all relevant data before releasing control. What EDI mined till then it's VERY likely it's all data that can be mined from CB.

Why could he wait? Wouldn't he delete any relevant data the second Sheps team reacehd the base?
If anything, it's far more likely EDI didn't get anything of value at all.
and hte mroe data is deleted, the more the base itself becoems valubale.

Besides, in our time you can learn a lot about a product by examining it's production line, indeed. But we are talking about ME universe. When you have schematic of new sniper gun, you put it in your omni tool and you get brand new sniper gun. If you don't have schematic, you can have all the time in world to examine your omni tool but you will not learn anything about that sniper gun. Maybe it's not that simple but I hope you see my point.

Since when do we produce guns from the omni-tool?

Omni-tool are capable of producing small, simple things IIRC.
you sure as hell arne't building a ship with it.

By destroying CB, besides all I mentioned before, I'm also avoiding possible scenario in which Cerberus team gets indoctrinated and continues collectors work on building a human reaper...

In which case Cerberus would call you in or send commandos or blow hte base..or any of the other hunderd ways to deal with it. But ways to deal with reapers...we have....erm....none?


Not to mention that Cerberus doesn't have a giant abducting ship, and that it couldnt' even compelte a huma nreaper in any sensible time frame.

You may call CB a shipyard and reapers starships. It doesn't change the fact that CB is producing reapers and reapers are part organic part machines. You can't just remove organic part from a reaper, place Joker inside and drive it around. It's not that simple. We are talking about concept and technology we have yet to understand before we can even start talking about building reaper shell ships. Given the history of studiying any working reaper technology, indoctrination is more likely thing to happen before we grasp in the concept.

Harbringer deleting all relevant data and EDI not gaining anything is not out the question at all. If you keep the base, data still wont be there.

Omni tool analogy is ment for comparision. Maybe guns are not made by omni tools but are made by some machine that works on omni tool concept. You have machine, you load schematic in it, machine produces gun. Without schematic there is no gun and no way of studying the gun. Same as if you have 3D printer. You design 3D model on the computer, connect printer to a computer, send to print, printer makes real 3D model out of block of raw material. If you want to study that 3D model you either need the model itself or design from the computer. Examining printer will get you nowhere. Examining printer connected to a wiped computer will also get you nowhere. Unless you like that printer and want to use it for making your own designs. If thats the case, go ahead, use it. I don't need it, I have my own 3D printer and IF i managed to get any relevant data from the computer before it was wiped out, I'll use it on my printer without being concerned about any side effects and whatnot from the system I'm not familiar with.

Even if you consider that production line is bound to have parts in it waiting to be assembled as it would be normal with any production line, this is not exactly the case. Normal production line is ment for serial production and has products in various stages of building along the line itself. This is not the case with CB, at least not at the point when you are there. CB is producing one reaper. There are no reapers in various stages of production along the line. It's just one reaper in production. Even if line exists as we understand it, it would be empty. If parts are not directly syntesized on the reaper, they are produced there on spot and build into it right away. All that assuming if thats how it works and not by some reaper thech - human goo mix that is pumped in the reaper and purposed there.

Possible Cerberus scenario is just that, one possible scenario. Yes, there is many possible ways to deal with it and there are none to deal with reapers that we know of. But, I have yet to see how is keeping CB way to deal with them. In best case scenario it may be an asset, not very meaningfull in the big picture, nothing more.

[General User]

Been awhile since I busted out this old chestnut. Ahem... here goes:

Cerberus is the symptom, the Council is the disease!

[Heimdall]

BoboIII wrote...

In best case scenario it may be an asset, not very meaningfull in the big picture, nothing more.

Exactly!  This human understands.

Also, worst case, something like the invasion comic happens.  Apparently that happens anyway, but from Shepard's view this is how the decision to destroy the base makes sense.

[Peer of the Empire]

Goneaviking wrote...

Everyone who joins Cerberus can be expected to be familiar with its reputation. There is reason to believe they're aware they're joining what has been designated a terrorist group and one that has done reprehensible things. There's a reason joining a terrorist group, or providing support to them, is an illegal act and that's because it's a choice to take part in their illegal operations even if you don't take direct action.

By contrast Salarians and Turians have no choice about their group membership. They're born into their families and raised among their communities. At times they agree with their leadership and sometimes they oppose it, but they never make a choice to join a species that created or implemented the genophage.

So yes. I'd support punishing everyone in Cerberus, they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

You are too trusting.  How do you know Cerberus's reputation is accurate, and not propaganda from humanity's enemies, foreign and domestic?

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 30 janvier 2012 - 12:47 .

[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm glad you're not.
You'd let a highjacked plane filled wiht bio-gas infect  the popualtion rather than shoot it down.

Incorrect, I would have it shot down, if there was no other option, but I can think of at least one way to divert the aircraft , you act like keeping the collector base is the only option, there are always other options even when you cannot see them.

I'd bet my collectors edition if this was put to a world wide vote the majority would vote to destroy the base, not because of any moral reason but because they'd fear their loved ones could end in it.

[Iakus]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

iakus wrote...
Especially with this dialogue at the end of the Suicide Mission:

TIM:  This base is a gift.  We can't just destroy it
Shepard:  You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper
TIM: My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.

"At any cost?"  That's certainly not a denial.

The important part is bolded.

You know he could just have said his goal is to save the galaxy from the Reapers. Which would be the same effect, since the Reapers are a threat to the whole galaxy. That he says humanity speaks volumes. It is like he says 'I would preferably sacrifice non human species'. This line of thought is exactly why Shepard can unite the galaxy and TIM cannot.

I'm certain TIM would have no compunction of smoothying a few million asari or turians to make some CerbeReapers to face the Reaper fleet.

And even if for some reason it has to be humans, you really think TIM would shrink away from a few million human deaths to "protect humanity"?

[KotorEffect3]

I just hope TIM gets what is coming to him in ME 3.

[Kaiser Shepard]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I just hope TIM gets what is coming to him in ME 3.

His own personal harem? Yeah, I hope so too.

[Heimdall]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I just hope TIM gets what is coming to him in ME 3.

His own personal harem? Yeah, I hope so too.

I thought he already had one

[DJBare]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I just hope TIM gets what is coming to him in ME 3.

Who do you think the end boss is going to be, hey, they had a baby human reaper, I would not put it past Bioware to create a smartly dressed smoking reaper.

[someone else]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I don't really understand the assumption that there is data there to begin with.

good point - makes saving the CB not such a big deal - if there's data there, someone who's at least human will get it, if not a waste of time.    The CB at best holds a only piece of the solution...

As to Cerberus - there's nothing in human experience absolutely evil - apart from our various versions of satan - the national socialists party [forum edited out the common name] laid the foundation for space exploration and spurred research into nuclear physics, various ethic mafias have provided their respective groups societal clout and influence denied them by the ruling elites, Mao and Stalin dragged backward, poverty-ridden agrarian civilizations to modernity, new levels of economic wealth and global importance - on the side of "good", it is so difficult to see Churchill's logic in refusing to divert bombers from the main effort to take out the rail lines to Auschwitz?

Cerberus is no different - for all its evil, it has been the prime move behind the alliance efforts against Saren, the Geth and Sovereign, spearheaded by Shepard and the Normandy, and its essential role in ME 2 is more critical - even if Cerberus "opposes" Shepard in ME3, it is beyond debate the Shepard and the galaxy would not have gotten to that point without TIM's commitment and Cerberus' actions.

Modifié par someone else, 30 janvier 2012 - 01:51 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

I think it's more than that.  I think it's more like how Anderson described Saren:  :Sometimes a thousand people have to die so a million can live, but only if there's no other way.  Saren doesn't even look for other options"  

See, I never liked that line because it frames the issue incorrectly. It's not a matter of whether another potential route exists; it's a matter of whether there is a reasonable chance of the other way succeeding. If we have a one in a million chance of saving a million lives with no casualties, that's being incredibly unrealistic. In those circumstances, you're still far better off in sacrificing the thousands.

The Illusive Man is much the same:  he doesn't seem inclined to look for other alternatives, he just bulls ahead, achieving victory by climbing over a pile of corpses.  Either through maliciously experimenting on unsuspecting and/or unwilling civilians, or through callus disregard for his own people's safety.  Either way, many more people get hurt of killed than are needed.

See above. The only thing which separates TIM from Mordin is that he's not willing to allow his heart to bleed all over the table in front of Shepard. TIM has never painted himself as a saint, is aware that his methods are questioned by others, and takes those actions anyway.  I don't need TIM to break down and explain to me how painful these actions are for him.

I certainly don't condone the genophage, but through Mordin, we do see that it was not a decision taken lightly, that other options were in fact weighed before the genophage option was taken as the "least bad".  We can't say the same for the Illusive Man. 

And yes, Cerberus was painted as a villain in the first game. The second has you working alongside them and attempt to make them seem more morally grey. They failed at that even as they succeeded with Mordin. Cerberus experiments were brushed off as "cells going rogue", "mistakes" or not even addressed at all. Mordin and the genophage was shown as being a necessary (to the Council's eyes) step to stop the krogan. One can argue fthe morality or necessity from either side. How does one justify the treatment of Corporal Toombs? What greater disaster did his suffering prevent?

It's pretty much shown the second that we are provided a motivation for Cerberus which extended farther than "world domination". It was shown by their efforts to aid Shepard with the Collectors. The issue is that you're asking for TIM to explain each individual act which you have taken issue with, and that's simply not in the cards given his character. TIM emphasizes one very important aspect to Shepard; his goal is to advance human interests. He's aware that there are costs as well, but is committed to his position, no different than Mordin. That he doesn't talk about how all the alternate options he could have taken doesn't indicate that it didn't happen. As with any leader, he must consider the most efficient course of action.

 However much of the justification is implicit in the experiment; Subject Zero's experiments had the end goal of improving human biotics, the use of David was intended as a means to control the Geth and AI, etc.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 30 janvier 2012 - 03:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LetMeW1n wrote...
And I'm inclined to support the genophage in peacetime, too. It's a sterility plague, no dead krogan babies or fetuses. Sure, it was the salarians' fault for uplifting the krogan, and instead the krogan are paying for it now, but genophage is justifiable in peacetime. And cos I'm inclined to believe mordin when he says "sustainable population"

Not according to Wrex....

[incinerator950]

DJBare wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I just hope TIM gets what is coming to him in ME 3.

Who do you think the end boss is going to be, hey, they had a baby human reaper, I would not put it past Bioware to create a smartly dressed smoking reaper.

I honestly want a Reaper with a top hat, a Cigar, and a monocle.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

It still proves the slarian/Turial leadership si willing and able to commit attrocities bigger than anything Cerberus did.

And you going ot punish everyone in Cerberus for what TIM allegeldy does?

Everyone who joins Cerberus can be expected to be familiar with its reputation. There is reason to believe they're aware they're joining what has been designated a terrorist group and one that has done reprehensible things. There's a reason joining a terrorist group, or providing support to them, is an illegal act and that's because it's a choice to take part in their illegal operations even if you don't take direct action.

1) most of the things Cerberus done are secret or kept quiet by their respective governmnes

2) Like in RL, peopel have different views on the subject. I wouldn't be surprised many consider what they hear from the Alliance/Council as imperial propaganda

3) Anyone who joins the Alliance/Turian military should also be familiar with it's reputation, no?

4) Legality is irrelevant.

So yes. I'd support punishing everyone in Cerberus, they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

Would oyu support exterminating the entire Turian/Salarian military and government?



But it doesn't matter. The whole issue remains hypocritical. Shep aksing others to set aside their hatered and grievances, but he refuses to do the same. There's no way around it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

iakus wrote...
Especially with this dialogue at the end of the Suicide Mission:

TIM:  This base is a gift.  We can't just destroy it
Shepard:  You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper
TIM: My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.

"At any cost?"  That's certainly not a denial.

The important part is bolded.

You know he could just have said his goal is to save the galaxy from the Reapers. Which would be the same effect, since the Reapers are a threat to the whole galaxy. That he says humanity speaks volumes. It is like he says 'I would preferably sacrifice non human species'. This line of thought is exactly why Shepard can unite the galaxy and TIM cannot.

Bollocks. Of course he sez humanity. He is human. It's only natural.
He doesn't say anything about not saving the other species, so don't put words in his mouth.

You are acting as if wanting to save humanity is a crime.
Also, Shepa is a raging hypocrite...If he can unite the gaalxy it's because of his magic persuasion power, not anything sensible or anything that would work in RL.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes CB can be used for building ships but is it worth it's questionable. CB is not shipyard, no matter how it seem so, it's a reaper production line. It happens that reapers are also ships but how long it would take to reingeneer whole production line to build reapers that work without it's organic component? We don't even know how reapers exactly function in the first place. Not to mention that whole repurposing team would most likely end up indoctrinated long before they are even remotely finish with their work. Or simply turned into husks.

CB is a shipyard. Reapers are starships.

They are quite different from any sort of starship we've seen.  Their constructed from genetic goo.

PART of the CORE is constructed from goo.
Everything esle is "normal" starship. MEtals, wires, corridors, rooms, engines, weapons, etc....

[incinerator950]

Call it Destiny or Plot Armor.

[ParagonForLife]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

It still proves the slarian/Turial leadership si willing and able to commit attrocities bigger than anything Cerberus did.

And you going ot punish everyone in Cerberus for what TIM allegeldy does?

Everyone who joins Cerberus can be expected to be familiar with its reputation. There is reason to believe they're aware they're joining what has been designated a terrorist group and one that has done reprehensible things. There's a reason joining a terrorist group, or providing support to them, is an illegal act and that's because it's a choice to take part in their illegal operations even if you don't take direct action.

1) most of the things Cerberus done are secret or kept quiet by their respective governmnes

2) Like in RL, peopel have different views on the subject. I wouldn't be surprised many consider what they hear from the Alliance/Council as imperial propaganda

3) Anyone who joins the Alliance/Turian military should also be familiar with it's reputation, no?

4) Legality is irrelevant.

So yes. I'd support punishing everyone in Cerberus, they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

Would oyu support exterminating the entire Turian/Salarian military and government?



But it doesn't matter. The whole issue remains hypocritical. Shep aksing others to set aside their hatered and grievances, but he refuses to do the same. There's no way around it.

 
Cerberus has a goal that cant be achived without millions dying Cerberus thinks that blood is the messure of victory and that there must be sacrifices 
Sacrifice 1000 people to save millions seems like a worthy trade off Sacrifice millions to save hundreds of millions still seem like a good trade? how about sacrificing a billion to save billions you keep doing that you will run out of people to sacrifice you do your best to save everyone thats why I didnt like Arrival at all I whould have let the reapers come but Bioware likes RPG games where they force events 

[Lotion Soronarr]

BoboIII wrote...

You may call CB a shipyard and reapers starships. It doesn't change the fact that CB is producing reapers and reapers are part organic part machines. You can't just remove organic part from a reaper, place Joker inside and drive it around. It's not that simple.

Actually it is.
Not much different than removing the wheel out of the car and replacing it with a computer...or something.
It's just a matter of connecting proper input and outputs...and that is IF you are using all default repaer stuff, and don't simply replace the entire engine controls with your own.

Harbringer deleting all relevant data and EDI not gaining anything is not out the question at all. If you keep the base, data still wont be there.

teh machinery will. Working exampels of tech will. you cna extract data from those.

Omni tool analogy is ment for comparision. Maybe guns are not made by omni tools but are made by some machine that works on omni tool concept.

Again - how do you know?

You have machine, you load schematic in it, machine produces gun. Without schematic there is no gun and no way of studying the gun. Same as if you have 3D printer. You design 3D model on the computer, connect printer to a computer, send to print, printer makes real 3D model out of block of raw material. If you want to study that 3D model you either need the model itself or design from the computer. Examining printer will get you nowhere. Examining printer connected to a wiped computer will also get you nowhere. Unless you like that printer and want to use it for making your own designs. If thats the case, go ahead, use it. I don't need it, I have my own 3D printer and IF i managed to get any relevant data from the computer before it was wiped out, I'll use it on my printer without being concerned about any side effects and whatnot from the system I'm not familiar with.

And if that printer is 100 times more advanced then yours? You'd still consider it nothing?
You might have your own printer, but this one is a lotbetter.

It's like saying "who needs thanix, we have our own guns!"

Even if you consider that production line is bound to have parts in it waiting to be assembled as it would be normal with any production line, this is not exactly the case. Normal production line is ment for serial production and has products in various stages of building along the line itself. This is not the case with CB, at least not at the point when you are there. CB is producing one reaper. There are no reapers in various stages of production along the line. It's just one reaper in production. Even if line exists as we understand it, it would be empty. If parts are not directly syntesized on the reaper, they are produced there on spot and build into it right away. All that assuming if thats how it works and not by some reaper thech - human goo mix that is pumped in the reaper and purposed there.

Do you know how shipyards work? Different parts of a ship are produced simountaniously and put together. It's called efficiency. If reaper do it one-by-one then they are retarded.

Did you ever see a carrier being built? It look like some  took a lightsaber and hacked a normal carrier into neat slices....

Possible Cerberus scenario is just that, one possible scenario. Yes, there is many possible ways to deal with it and there are none to deal with reapers that we know of. But, I have yet to see how is keeping CB way to deal with them. In best case scenario it may be an asset, not very meaningfull in the big picture, nothing more.

The CB is a source of info. We may find a weakness. OR new technology. Better weapons .Better shields. Defense agaisnt indoctrination. an off switch. Lots of possiblities.
The CB gives you a good CHANCE to find something usefull.
Destrying it gives you nothing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm glad you're not.
You'd let a highjacked plane filled wiht bio-gas infect  the popualtion rather than shoot it down.

Incorrect, I would have it shot down, if there was no other option, but I can think of at least one way to divert the aircraft , you act like keeping the collector base is the only option, there are always other options even when you cannot see them.

Oh? What other way?

And if there is another option, what is it? Dont' tell me tehre is one if you can't name it.

Details, details...I want em.

I'd bet my collectors edition if this was put to a world wide vote the majority would vote to destroy the base, not because of any moral reason but because they'd fear their loved ones could end in it.

Then the "majority" is raging idiots.

[ParagonForLife]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm glad you're not.
You'd let a highjacked plane filled wiht bio-gas infect  the popualtion rather than shoot it down.

Incorrect, I would have it shot down, if there was no other option, but I can think of at least one way to divert the aircraft , you act like keeping the collector base is the only option, there are always other options even when you cannot see them.

Oh? What other way?

And if there is another option, what is it? Dont' tell me tehre is one if you can't name it.

Details, details...I want em.

I'd bet my collectors edition if this was put to a world wide vote the majority would vote to destroy the base, not because of any moral reason but because they'd fear their loved ones could end in it.

Then the "majority" is raging idiots.

umm  contact the Council and the Alliance and tell them what you found and if they dont show then ill blow it up rather then have Cerberus have it

[incinerator950]

ParagonForLife wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

It still proves the slarian/Turial leadership si willing and able to commit attrocities bigger than anything Cerberus did.

And you going ot punish everyone in Cerberus for what TIM allegeldy does?

Everyone who joins Cerberus can be expected to be familiar with its reputation. There is reason to believe they're aware they're joining what has been designated a terrorist group and one that has done reprehensible things. There's a reason joining a terrorist group, or providing support to them, is an illegal act and that's because it's a choice to take part in their illegal operations even if you don't take direct action.

1) most of the things Cerberus done are secret or kept quiet by their respective governmnes

2) Like in RL, peopel have different views on the subject. I wouldn't be surprised many consider what they hear from the Alliance/Council as imperial propaganda

3) Anyone who joins the Alliance/Turian military should also be familiar with it's reputation, no?

4) Legality is irrelevant.

So yes. I'd support punishing everyone in Cerberus, they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

Would oyu support exterminating the entire Turian/Salarian military and government?



But it doesn't matter. The whole issue remains hypocritical. Shep aksing others to set aside their hatered and grievances, but he refuses to do the same. There's no way around it.

 
Cerberus has a goal that cant be achived without millions dying Cerberus thinks that blood is the messure of victory and that there must be sacrifices 
Sacrifice 1000 people to save millions seems like a worthy trade off Sacrifice millions to save hundreds of millions still seem like a good trade? how about sacrificing a billion to save billions you keep doing that you will run out of people to sacrifice you do your best to save everyone thats why I didnt like Arrival at all I whould have let the reapers come but Bioware likes RPG games where they force events 

So you get Billions for Billions, and yet you don't appreciate 300,000 for several hundred trillion a six months of respite and time to confirm what happened?  

Forcing events is necisary, you cannot control fate and time.  If this was any more in your control, the game would stagnate and we'd be purpetually locked in a crummy, romance simulator that reflects Warhammer 40k's pause in the time frame so Gamesworkshop can milk the franchise for more money and crappy BL stories.  

[ParagonForLife]

incinerator950 wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
The salarians seems to be divided about whenever the genophage was right because it keeps the krogans in check or wrong because it's technically a genocide, so I'd say that it's certainly not as bad as everyone of them wanting the krogans to remain in their current state.

It seems to be another case of the few leaders deciding for entire populations and then the populations are punished severely and intolerantly for it. The sins of their fathers and whatnot.

It still proves the slarian/Turial leadership si willing and able to commit attrocities bigger than anything Cerberus did.

And you going ot punish everyone in Cerberus for what TIM allegeldy does?

Everyone who joins Cerberus can be expected to be familiar with its reputation. There is reason to believe they're aware they're joining what has been designated a terrorist group and one that has done reprehensible things. There's a reason joining a terrorist group, or providing support to them, is an illegal act and that's because it's a choice to take part in their illegal operations even if you don't take direct action.

1) most of the things Cerberus done are secret or kept quiet by their respective governmnes

2) Like in RL, peopel have different views on the subject. I wouldn't be surprised many consider what they hear from the Alliance/Council as imperial propaganda

3) Anyone who joins the Alliance/Turian military should also be familiar with it's reputation, no?

4) Legality is irrelevant.

So yes. I'd support punishing everyone in Cerberus, they knew what they were getting into when they signed up.

Would oyu support exterminating the entire Turian/Salarian military and government?



But it doesn't matter. The whole issue remains hypocritical. Shep aksing others to set aside their hatered and grievances, but he refuses to do the same. There's no way around it.

 
Cerberus has a goal that cant be achived without millions dying Cerberus thinks that blood is the messure of victory and that there must be sacrifices 
Sacrifice 1000 people to save millions seems like a worthy trade off Sacrifice millions to save hundreds of millions still seem like a good trade? how about sacrificing a billion to save billions you keep doing that you will run out of people to sacrifice you do your best to save everyone thats why I didnt like Arrival at all I whould have let the reapers come but Bioware likes RPG games where they force events 

So you get Billions for Billions, and yet you don't appreciate 300,000 for several hundred trillion a six months of respite and time to confirm what happened?  

Forcing events is necisary, you cannot control fate and time.  If this was any more in your control, the game would stagnate and we'd be purpetually locked in a crummy, romance simulator that reflects Warhammer 40k's pause in the time frame so Gamesworkshop can milk the franchise for more money and crappy BL stories.  

you got none of this Arrival was the stupidest mission ever you traded 300k lifes for nothing 2 months of nothing did the Council prepare for the reapers? no did the alliance prepare for reapers? no
did anyone prepare for reapers? no Sheppard prepared for the reapers but then agian hes know about them for almost 3 years now so it was worthless nothing was gained if you didnt destroy realy reapers whould have come and attacked you destroy relay reapers come and attack