1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

CerberusSoldier wrote...
No killing the 300,000 in order to stop the reapers is fine and I totally agree with that but for Shepard to have to be brought up on charges when in essence its really taking the sword up the butt because the alliance is so afraid of sticking up for humanity and its needs would rather make Shepard pawn so the batarians won't go to war with them .

You know what? I can say that Cerberus just used Shepard to gain control over Reaper technology. As a pawn, if you will. Based on just as much as your accusations are.

By the way, the Alliance committee is actually taking advice from Shepard at the start of ME3. They just took Shepard in to avoid a war.

I have to say, engaging in a war with the batarians a few months before the Reapers invade and endanger the lives of hundreds if not thousands of Alliance personnel just because they shouldn't take advantage of ONE man/woman like that, is pretty f**king stupid.

Any government would pay that price without hesitation.

[BoboIII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BoboIII wrote...
Robocop without a human part is not a robot. Reaper without it's organic part is not a starship. Simple as that. Sure, there are some of base starship elements there, but thats all. Nothing really new. After all, all known technology is actually based on reapers technology. That was their intention.

No, Robocop wihout the human parts IS a robot. The only difference between a robot and robocop was that a human brain controlled the mechanical body. You could replace the brain with a control chip.

Same thing with the reapers. The "shell" is a starhip. The core is the brain.The reaper is technicly a starship. A living one.

And no the the last one. There will be new things. you know, the first car engine and a jet engine are all based on the same principle - combustion. Are you saying they are the same?
Reaper tech is far more advanced than ours. There is undeniable. Prothean tech jumped humanity technologicly by 200 years. Reaper tech could jump it even more.
It is said so in-game.

If that giant facility was building multiple reapers aka multiple starships I would expect to find every kind of technology around. But it wasn't, it was building one reaper, just one. Stil, there wasn't any production line with parts going to be assembled into the reaper. There were tubes with human goo pumping into the reaper.

What part of "you only seen 0.001 of the entire internal volume" escapes you? Have you any idea how long hte game would last if you went all around the base? Heck, you only visited a small part of the Collector Cruiser and it is only a fraction of the size of the base!!

And shipyards generally build ship one by one within a single drydock. Yet they still work on different parts of a single ship at once. Because it's the SMARTEST WAY TO DO IT. Some things just naturaly lead to something.
Serisously, you are arguming some really stupid stuff here.

TIM uses quantum entanglement to comunicate with you. I don't see that as standard remote detonation device. Besides, if there was option to remotely detonate CB I would certainly took it and do the deed from safe distance. Instead, for some reason Shepard activates device and runs out like hell trying to outrun explosion. Why he don't do it remotely, like pragia, I have no idea, I can only assume that for some reason it couldn't be done.

If you choose the option to blow it up, Shepard doesn't wait at all. So it's a moot point.
A remote detonator is a logical possibility and plusible in-universe.

All other options comes with a lot of 'if'.

and takign it out comes also with a lot of if's.
Like "what if there was something of value left?"
"What if we need hte base to win?"
"What if htere are no more collectors?"

As I said - you're jumping the gun. There was no indication any Collector ships were on their way, was there?

Unless I metagaming, I can't justify keeping CB in that particular moment while Shepard is inside.

Funny that's it's exactly hte opposite. I cna't justify blowing it up wihout heavy metagaming.

Was there any indication that collectors ships wasn't on their way, was there? Or reapers? Or that aren't active indoctrination/huskification devices around? Or that Harbringer is uterly stupid and left any sensible data around? That TIM already has IFF's at hand to move in?

If you carefully read all my posts maybe you can understand my reasoning. Everything we further discuss is entering grey areas in which not you and not I can be sure about. I'll wait ME3 for those grey areas to clear up and see wrongs and rights in my way.

You have it your way, I'll have it my way. Peace out.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BoboIII wrote...
Was there any indication that collectors ships wasn't on their way, was there? Or reapers? Or that aren't active indoctrination/huskification devices around? Or that Harbringer is uterly stupid and left any sensible data around? That TIM already has IFF's at hand to move in?

We already knew reapers were on their way. But it was anyones guess as to when they would arrive. And if they did arrive, the base would be insignificant to them.
Were there more collectors inbound? Uknown. Appears they only had one base, so you'd have to wonder where the rest would be.

But you are having a very defeteist attitude. You surrender before you even see the opposition. You don't even TRY to hold the base. Yes, that's jumping the gun.

If there are other Collector assets, where are they? Normandy didn't detect anything on it's way in... there were no other collector ships in system. Even if htere are other collectors ships, they certanly arne't close.


There is advanced technology in that base. Period. That is a fact.
Pieces of advanced tech are treated by everyone as important. No one denies reaper tech can catapult humanity hunders of years ahead. Yet you insist there is nothing in the base of worth. You cannot supprot that argument. Sorry.

[angry_peon]

You have to admit you have cornered yourself a little.
On the one hand you say the base is irrelevant to the Reapers, so there would be time to gather everything from it and destroy it safely.
On the other hand you say there is likely some invaluable tech there, that could seriously harm the Reapers.
The chance that both assumptions hold true are ridiculously slim (as in "close your eyes, pray and hope-slim" the thing you always accuse Paragon players of).

And you are arguing against yourself regarding the absence of Collectors as well. The argument was that there was no threat and Shepard had all the time in the world to set up a remote detonation (which you claimed was possible).
The fact that Shepard does not do so, despite having the time, indicates that it is not possible or very hard to do, so this fact contradicts your claim.
If you want to defend it, you should rather come up with an explanation of why Shepard seems in a hurry (which would be the sole reason for not setting up remote charges, if you assume it is possible). Got it?

Modifié par Varhjhin, 30 janvier 2012 - 07:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Varhjhin wrote...

You have to admit you have cornered yourself a little.
On the one hand you say the base is irrelevant to the Reapers, so there would be time to gather everything from it and destroy it safely.
On the other hand you say there is likely some invaluable tech there, that could seriously harm the Reapers.
The chance that both assumptions hold true are ridiculously slim (as in "close your eyes, pray and hope-slim" the thing you always accuse Paragon players of).

Nope. Don't you get it?
It's not important othe reapers because reapers already posses all the tech in the base. And once they come, there will be thousands of reapers running around the galaxy wiht an army of slaves. They won't need the base.
The value of the base to them is minimal. To us it's huge.

And you are arguing against yourself regarding the absence of Collectors as well. The argument was that there was no threat and Shepard had all the time in the world to set up a remote detonation (which you claimed was possible).
The fact that Shepard does not do so, despite having the time, indicates that it is not possible or very hard to do, so this fact contradicts your claim.

No, it doesn't indicate anything. Shep that blows the base is not interested in keeping it. He's there to blow it up. Now. Not later.

Shep that uses the pulse is. And after that the base IS secure, you can install as many bombs as you want.

If you want to defend it, you should rather come up with an explanation of why Shepard seems in a hurry (which would be the sole reason for not setting up remote charges, if you assume it is possible). Got it?

He is in a hurry because there's still Collectors in the base. He doens't want to keep it

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Name ONE thing Cerberus could have done that would have had a better outcome. Just one. Go ahead!

The Collectors were targeting colonies. All the Alliance sent was a few marines and 4 turrets. So what would be your alternative?

Actually give the Alliance time to properly set up those turrets. Might have helped a little. 
That said unlike many experiments this Cerberus mission actually seem justifiable

CerberusSoldier wrote...

The alliance has done bad things like use Shepard as a pawn in killing 300,000 Batarians

What version of Arrival are you playing? And where do I get it, because the one I played didn't actually have the Alliance scheming the destruction of an Batarian colony by using Shepard as a proxy. 
Mine has an Alliance Admiral sending me out there as a personal favor and then have him find out the Reaper arrival and one teams plan to destroy the relay. 

I do wonder if anyone in the Alliance actually knew about this? Though one would think that even they would want proof before given the good doctor cart blanche and pretending they never heard of her plans.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is advanced technology in that base. Period. That is a fact.
Pieces of advanced tech are treated by everyone as important. No one denies reaper tech can catapult humanity hunders of years ahead. Yet you insist there is nothing in the base of worth. You cannot supprot that argument. Sorry.

I'd garner the actual reasoning is that there was nothing in the base that was worth the in several people's eyes percieved threat of keeping it. 

[NotSoIllusiveMan]

Besides, the Reapers would be really dumb if they just let humans steal their tech from their Collector Base without using any indoctrination (just like they did with the scientists who were studying the Derelict Reaper).

Modifié par NotSoIllusiveMan, 30 janvier 2012 - 08:07 .

[CerberusSoldier]

Someone With Mass wrote...

CerberusSoldier wrote...
No killing the 300,000 in order to stop the reapers is fine and I totally agree with that but for Shepard to have to be brought up on charges when in essence its really taking the sword up the butt because the alliance is so afraid of sticking up for humanity and its needs would rather make Shepard pawn so the batarians won't go to war with them .

You know what? I can say that Cerberus just used Shepard to gain control over Reaper technology. As a pawn, if you will. Based on just as much as your accusations are.

By the way, the Alliance committee is actually taking advice from Shepard at the start of ME3. They just took Shepard in to avoid a war.

I have to say, engaging in a war with the batarians a few months before the Reapers invade and endanger the lives of hundreds if not thousands of Alliance personnel just because they shouldn't take advantage of ONE man/woman like that, is pretty f**king stupid.

Any government would pay that price without hesitation.

   



no the alliance cares more about peace with aliens than they do about humanity  in ME thats all it is to it . plus the alliance wants to be buddies with a council who clearly shows in ME 1 they do not give a dam about us humans . yeah sure be a pawn for them since they were too busy sitting on the butts in 2 while the reapers were stealing humans no I am sorry much like the council in 1 I have no use for stupid and do nothing people .   your Shepard may like taking the sword up the butt for them . All I can say the alliance better get the C Sec police ready because My 2 Shepards will go to hell and back to save Earth and humanity and the krogans .  killing 300,000 batarian scum to save Earth is fine with me

[Phaedon]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
* SNIP*
[/quote]


:huh:



This poem makes more sense than your post.....

[/quote]
Actually, that is not my post. However, the poem you seem to quote has less grammatical and spelling mistakes than your usual posts. But here is my actual post, which you yet again, fail to provide a rebuttal towards:
[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you don't want me editing your owrds, don't edit mine.[/quote]
Your imagination is still manufacturing things. You created an all new exchange that you wish would happen. I merely pointed out that you spoke for no one but yourself, and that you certainly didn't prove anything. No one but yourself accepts that anyway. When, however, you talk to yourself and admit that "you have nothing", well that's a bit worrying, I reckon.


[quote][quote]
I am sure that if you tried to read a bit more carefully, you'd see that I specifically called TIM's actions frequently moronic, rather than "treating everyone as a moron". I reckon that you are doing it, when you mask your failures to come back with a proper rebuttal as complete dismissals of the argument. So I'll quote myself again. No problem, I can be very patient.[/quote]

Stupid argument remains stupid.

Aside from ressurecting Shep, no action of TIM can be described as moronic.[/quote]
Logical contradiction.

I accept that X has done stupid things in the past, but there is no reason for X to do stupid things in the future.



[quote]And TIM is after efficiency. He is after results.[/quote]
TIM is his after his own goals, and that's that. He passed valuable intel on humanity just to see how indoctrination works. Saren managed to study indoctrination without a single turian victim, therefore, he is inefficient and moronic.

Anything about efficiency and results is pulled out of thin air. It is your personal interpretation of the character, and is unprovable, as there is any source that conclusively proves such wild claims.



[quote]Your redicolous[/quote]
This is the fourth time you get this word wrong. I have pointed it out to you, Spell Check has pointed out to you. Why continue to do it, regardless of the big red line under it?

[quote]ideathat he wants to build a human reaper is unsupportted. It is stupid. It doesn't fit TIM, it doesn't FIT Cerberius..it doesn't fit ANYONE. No one would do that...no one.[/quote]
Wrong.

Not only has he not denied the idea that he could do it, not only have you accepted in your previous post that he would do it, but you have also accepted that he has done stupid things in the past, without his judgement being clouded. As a result, it is a logical anticipation for TIM to repeat his stupid line of action, especially when he is desperate, and he is race, towards he is supposedly so devoted towards is one step from extinction.




[quote]It just a too big, too long, too impractical waste of resources. And even if he wanted to, he couldn't. A human reaper would need millions of humans.[/quote]
Further logical contradiction. Genetic goo does not instill intelligence or power to the Reapers. You have, yourself said that you may be giving a criminal group a big dreadnaught. The danger that the Reapers pose is maintained in their synthetic components.



[quote]You fail to turn on your brain on a regular basis.[/quote]
Oooh, another failure to address a portion of my post, turned into a desperate half-arsed insult here, try again:

[quote]
[quote]You can't just say "X is an idiot so Y is exactly what he would do!". that's bollocks and you know it.
You know what? Anderson is an idiot. Hence I postulate he will shoot Shepard in the back. According to oyu, this makes perfect sense. [/quote]

No, it makes no sense, but that is alright, because you seem to have failed to read properly through my posts again. Morons are not bad people. They don't stab you in the back, not necessarily. Where did I say that TIM would stab you in the back because he is moronic? These are your own words, not mine. I certainly don't attribute his complete untrustworthiness to his potentically low intelligence.

I specifically said that just because it seems moronic to you, it doesn't seem that TIM won't do it.
In fact, I pointed out that TIM has indulged in even more far fetched and immature ideas. It's like giving thousands of dollars to an overexcited eleven year old on Christmas Eve. People can do stupid things if they have the means to do it.[/quote] 


And no, really, you have managed to mistake gravity for magnetism the last time you were desperate. I can't wait where this will get you this time.


[quote]You got nothing. There's no reason for TIM to build a human reaper. And your logic is broken that I can use it to attack anyone. Like I did with Anderson. Didn't Grayson get loose because of him? Even tough he knew about the reapers. Tell me that isn'tmoronic! So by that logic, Anderson is a moron. Hence he MUST do moronic thing in the future.
Also, since Shep did stupid thing, he's a moron too.
See how easy it is?[/quote]
First off, I edited your post to make it somewhat readable. Use SpellCheck in the future.

I actually like how you failed to answer to my post and just repeat your previous point. It's OK, it's always fun to see you not even try to backtrack but just repeat the same thing again and again.

1) If you do a stupid thing once, it is likely that you will do it again, yes.

2) TIM did more than one stupid things. He has a record in that sort of stuff. In fact, fanatical ultranationalism is stupid by itself.

3) Anderson helped plan the raid. He didn't take a part in it, and he didn't issue any orders.

4) Even if they had known that TIM could indoctrinate people, they'd think that he'd be smart enough to not use it on the human hostage. They would be wrong. However, they knew nothing of the sort. Grayson was considered a harmless hostage during the entirety of the operation, and as such, the fact that Grayson went loose is certainly not their mistake, as it was their very goal.

5) Anderson didn't get "Grayson loose".


6) People who show repeat reading comprehension issues, both while reading books and online may be stupid.

7) TIM's problem is not merely his stupidity. I don't assume that stupid people will backstab me. That would be you, and your pathological fear towards people who you consider to have lower intelligence than you.

8) You clearly make no attempt at reading or thinking. TIM is stupid AND ruthless AND not loyal at all. Therefore, not trustworthy. Instead, you just blame Anderson for being potentially stupid. Better luck next time.


[quote]Building a human reaper isn't moronic to me. It IS moronic. On ever level.[/quote]

No more moronic than trying to indoctrinate an entire race just by smooth talking to them, developing overglorified jenisars, learning how to rebuild and rebuilding someone with no investigative skills to investigate the random extinction of human colonies.

If build an HR seems moronic to you, then we can just agree that TIM is a moron.




[quote]Why? Because stabbing Shepard would be illogical and counterproductive.[/quote]
Well, sh*t son, it already happenned.

Yes, TIM is an idiot.
You chose to play with the fire, you got burned.
You were wrong, others were right.
I just wish that it was your hand that was burned not any internal components of your body.


[quote]Just like building a human reaper. And yet you insist TIM would do it - excatly because it's illogical. Hence I insist Anderson would do it. Simply because it's stupid and he CAN do it.[/quote]
No, that's what you think that I am saying, simply because you aren't very good at reading comprehension.

TIM wouldn't do it because he is stupid. He would do it because he is stupid and ruthless and unloyal to Shepard. 

You just seem to not agree that people can be ruthless or unloyal, which falls in line with your utter lack of ethics.





[quote][quote]
Anyway, my argument most certainly stands unanswered.
What makes you think that TIM wouldn't do it? Because it is stupid?
Fanatical ultranationalism is stupid. So what?[/quote] [/quote]
So, you just quoted a portion of my post and didn't even answer it? Lol.




[quote]And like I siad - he didn't needot deny. It's so stupid it warrants no denial.[/quote]
He replied to the question specifically and he said "I'd do anything". So much for warranting no reply, heh.

[quote]No, they can't. Youre talking aout of your a**.[/quote] 
Cute.

But have another go at trying to reply to my post:

[quote]
I insist that TIM may very go for it, firstly, because he didn't deny that option, and secondly because a lot of similar projects could be described as "wastes of resources, inefficient, ineffective, illogical and stupid."[/quote] 

[quote][quote]
Anyway, I explained my reasons. Now explain why you think that they won't do it. They have gone for such "wastes of resources" in the past, that is well established. Is it simply because you love TIM almost as passionately as you do Cerberus?[/quote]

No it isn't established. A human reaper is NOT conductive to their goal, is NOT practical, is NOT feasable, does NOT bring results fast, etc, etc - it is everying people like TIM should HATE.[/quote]
Aha!

Contra-di-ction time! 

You have just admitted, twice, that TIM has done stupid things on the past. Therefore, it is established that TIM has gone for such "wastes of resources". Your personal interpretation of the antagonist matters not. What matters is that you claim that TIM will not go for it. Simply because it is a waste of resources. When in fact, in the very same post, you accept that TIM has gone for such "wastes of resources" in the past.

As a result, the "it's a waste of resources so he won't do it" argument is invalid and self-contradictive.


[quote]
Either way it has been established once more that Project Lazarus was what you would consider a "waste of resources". As such, any other "waste of resources" may very well end up in the canonical timeline of the MEverse, be it an exception to the rule or not.[/quote]

I wouldnt' call researching tech to brign back dead a "waste".
Slecting Shep might have been tough...[/quote][/quote]
And I wouldn't call creating a super duper dreadnaught a waste of resources by itself. It's all a matter of context. Researching how to bring back the dead for a SINGLE person, and having him or her find out who is abducting human colonies, regardless of their lack of investigative skills.

Now, that's what I call a huge waste of resources.


[quote]
Slecting [/quote]
What.




[quote]TI catapulted hte understanding of geth[/quote]
Source?

[quote]and proved they CAN be controlled. I'd say that is a big plus. And triyng to control Gethis not stupid.[/quote]
It proved the exact opposite, which is why the whole concept of the Project Overlord was stupid.
Only a mathematical savant was able to communicate with them. Not a machine, a human. This is well established, as they had to tie up David and force him to relay orders. The problem with humans, however, you see, is that they need to sleep.

If a machine couldn't replicate David's thought process, no one could. And since David  is a single person, David needs to sleep, or he'll go gaga, coockoo. Which he did.

[quote]
No, the project was goign very well IT's not moronic. [/quote]
HOLY BATMAN. What an amazing argument you got there. Let's close our ears, slip into denial and repeat what Lotion said:

"No, the project was going very well! IT'S not moronic!"
"No, the project was going very well! IT'S not moronic!" 
"No, the project was going very well! IT'S not moronic!" 
"No, the project was going very well! IT'S not moronic!" 
"No, the project was going very well! IT'S not moronic!" 

Let us also not provide any further argumentantion, because otherwise, we won't fall under the trope of the fanatical propaganda-driven blackshirts. Anyway, here is the portion of my post you failed to reply towards:

[quote]I need not. Again, you seem to have serious problems comprehending written text. Never did I accuse TIMmy and co. of unleashing a human wrecking ball across the galaxy. What I did, rather, was them establishing connection with the Reapers, which, hint, hint, gave them a LOT of intel about humanity.[/quote]

[quote]But then agian, I assume you will categorize everythingCerberus does as moronic, out of some compulsive need to do so to justify your broken viewpoint..[/quote]
By all means, I will indeed admit that Cerberus are master morons, seeing as they chose to give to the Reapers all that they needed to know about humanity. Stupid, untrustworthy and unloyal. Yep.





[quote]So it is your fantasy.[/quote]
No, I specifically said that I have as many masochistic fantasies, as much as you are skillfull at reading.

[quote]Dont' use things that never happened as proof. but wihout that oyu got nothing I guerss.
There never was a "human repaer" project. There is no indication there ever will be one.[/quote]
Yeah, just as I said, as skillful as you are at reading.

[quote]
What I do, however, is point out potential projects which TIM didn't deny in expressing interest towards and compare them to other (failed) Cerberus projects, further demolishing your idea of "moronic" and "waste of resources". [/quote]

It is funny, because you ask me for indications and to stop speculating, while quoting the same post that addresses both of those.

[quote]Yoiu have demolished nothing - except your own credibility.[/quote]
Magnetism.




[quote][quote][quote]
Reapers >>>> Cerberus
Priorities... Dude... You could learn a bit about that.[/quote]

Aha! So you then accept that TIM could fancy making a single Reaper? I mean, your post is supposed to be a reply to that specific portion of my post. A single Reaper who has no chance against a single Reaper fleet?[/quote]

No, I dont' accept your delusional fantasiees.[/quote]
That is OK. I will keep quoting your post until you explain what you meant. 

Well, not really. I know what you mean, I just want to see you desperately trying to get out of the hole you have dug. There's your post, go explain it.

[quote][quote][quote]
According to you, all that TIM does is affirm that he'd put his own goals before anything else.[/quote]

so do you apprently. So what? His goal is to defeat the reapers.[/quote]

Source? All I have heard is about advancing humanity. He definitely doesn't want to destroy the Reapers, actually. And don't accuse me of metagaming. We are discussing TIM's "morality" and his record of failures.[/quote]

And his record is good enough.[/quote]
His record of failures? Of course.

Anyway, I'll be requoting my post, because, once again, you have utterly failed at replying towards it:

[quote][quote]
According to you, all that TIM does is affirm that he'd put his own goals before anything else.[/quote]

so do you apprently. So what? His goal is to defeat the reapers.[/quote]

Source? All I have heard is about advancing humanity. He definitely doesn't want to destroy the Reapers, actually. And don't accuse me of metagaming. We are discussing TIM's "morality" and his record of failures.



[quote]
You aren't backtracking out of this one so easily, ol' boy. So, according to you, there is a logical point in life. I want to hear it. Because it doesn't exist. Everyone will end up dead anyway, sooner or later, it doesn't matter. We are after all, just a few particles of mass, according to your...ethics. The wanna-be consequentialist one.[/quote]

I don't need to backtrack, because youre not making any sense. Find me a quite where I specificly say that there is a logical point in life. You won't. But it doesn't matter.
You are again, using philospohical bulls*** to justify your genocide.[/quote]
I'll do that exactly.

You accuse us of having "messed up morals", specifically replying to the notion that "It's better to die fighting than turn into your worst enemy". Of course, you are again, full of sh*t. The only value of life is given to it by ethics.

[quote][quote]
If you are still not getting it, I am simply sniping at your "morals".
People aren't born with price tags hanging from their ears. Every human value is crafted by ethics. Do you think that Human Rights existed forever? No. Moral people made them. To maintain what they wisely valued as right, and to protect others towards who they felt empathy.[/qujote]

And interesting that YOU are the one assiging value and judging people - deciding if they are "worthy" to live or not. Not me. [/quote]
But, alas, Lotion, I find it more intriguing that you are not assigning values to people.

I, and anyone else who believes in ethics, have assigned an equal value towards all people, considering all as equally worthy. You on the other hand, see every human as nothing but your personal toys, them holding no value at all, only existing to help you succeed in your goals.

Our lives are by themselves, of no value at all. We will eventually all die, anyway.
Our lives have value because we choose to give them one. And when we choose to value our lives, we choose the way of self-respect and respect towards the lives of others. We don't kill people unless we can avoid it, we don't brainwash anyone, and we sure as hell don't control an entire race to do our own bidding.

And yet, it is you who compares humans to bacteria.
Creatures of no importance, past their own survival.
There are worse things in life, than in death, and to think the opposite is a direct effect of cowardice upon facing your own mortality.


[quote]I'm not making any value judgments. I'm not saiyng that Timmy should die because the galaxy doesn't conform to my morals.[/quote]
And that is you, but it is not me.

No one talked about killing TIM, unless absolutely necessary,  but rather of stopping him from claiming any more lives. That needed to happen since ME2, and the revelations of ME3 make this even more important. And, hey if TIM even redeems himself through actual remorse, everyone is a winner.

What you, however, do, is dumb down TIM's hundreds if not thousands of direct victims as a mere difference in opinion, further showing what a monstrosity you have turned yourself into.

[quote]You are the one who casts out and proclaim millions of women and children (even those unborn) as worthless. Their lives are worthless. Their future is worthless. Their culture is worthless. Just because they are trying to survive. Yes, that's their big crime. Survival.[/quote]
Maybe in your wildest dreams. The mere choice of people dumbing down themselves to flesh and bones and nothing else doesn't make them immoral or even criminal. They are as worthy of saving as everyone else.

And we are talking about you personally here. You dismiss morals completely, yet you claim to be more than flesh and bone. You are lying to yourself.

Just as you are lying to yourself and everyone else when you proclaim that ethical people consider other people worthless. You have just accused them of actually putting "value" and "worthiness" to people, when they should not, and then you go ahead and accuse them of considering everyone but them as "worthless".

Let's see you backtrack out of this one, big boy.

[quote][quote]
Ethics. Yes.
Next time you think that it's bad that people act on their morals, and the world needs to be saved, regardless if we become as monstrous, or even worse than our enemies, please bang your head in the wall until you suffer a mind-changing concussion.[/quote]

Become as monstrous? Loosing all worth?
You already have become a monster. A monster willing to sacrifice anyone and anything for your own piece of mind. 

Don't talk to me about ethics. You couldn't recognize them if they ran you over in a dreadnought.[/quote]
Dreadnoughts can't run over people. They are in space.

You dismiss any worth of the human life, and then accuse moralists of assigning worthiness to people, equally.
You certainly need someone to sit down by you and teach you some basic ethics.

Your irrational fear of death is the one which has rendered you incapable of understanding that it is worse to convict millions of people to a life of suffering, without any respect to any life but their own , than keeping them alive for a few more decades.



[quote][quote]
You'd cause amusement either way. To read a post discarding clean and pure "logic" which attacks your belief that people shouldn't act on what they feel right and recognize it as an amoralist worldview is beyond hillarious.
[/quote]

There's is nothing clean and pure in what you said. And neither do you describe my belief correctly.

[/quote][/quote]
It's OK Lotion. You aren't very good at reading, so I'll just quote myself again and again.

[quote]
You'd cause amusement either way. To read a post discarding clean and pure "logic" which attacks your belief that people shouldn't act on what they feel right and recognize it as an amoralist worldview is beyond hillarious. [/quote]


Since you can clearly not get this into your head, for the second time in a row, I'll just explain that "discard" stands for "abolish". Not "support". Regardless of what you wish I was saying.

[/quote]

[angry_peon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Nope. Don't you get it?
It's not important othe reapers because reapers already posses all the tech in the base. And once they come, there will be thousands of reapers running around the galaxy wiht an army of slaves. They won't need the base.
The value of the base to them is minimal. To us it's huge.

And you are telling me that the Reapers do not care that we now posses tech, of which they very well know would give us a huge boost? Come on, Sovereign is personally controlling that base, if he does not care we find dangerous stuff, that would be beyond stupid. My Shepard does not think the Reapers are that stupid... 
(which brings me to another detail: You always accuse people of jumping to conclusions. Yet you claim that there are parts for a complete Reaper there, not only the Larva, despite nothing in the game supporting this fact. So how did you reach this conclusion?)
Besides, all it would take would be one Reaper to go there and kill everything, why the hell would they NOT do that, I ask you?

No, it doesn't indicate anything. Shep that blows the base is not interested in keeping it. He's there to blow it up. Now. Not later.

Shep that uses the pulse is. And after that the base IS secure, you can install as many bombs as you want.

That argument was not mine. I was just pointing out that you didn't help your case, by stating there was no imminent threat at the time.

Modifié par Varhjhin, 30 janvier 2012 - 08:49 .

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Why do you want to survive?
Becase life is precious. You only got one.
Or simply...just because. No explanation is necessary.

Hence why your earlier posts are senseless.

Is that also why you are repeating what I am saying?

Life isn't precious because you are born with a price tag.
Life is precious because billions of us accept it as precious.
If you accept your life as precious, you must also accept the lives of everyone as equally precious.
If you don't care "if others die in the process" of your own survival, you may as well not care if you don't survive.

Then why don't you accept the lives of everyone in the galaxy to be more precious than you ease of mind?

It was once said that there can only be three motives for the actions of men. Actual proft, ease of mind, and adherence to morals. If anything, the latter is more easily compared to a compulsive drive, rather than one that delivers profit.  Philosophy aside, expression of collective empathy and psychological hedonism are irrelevant towards one another.

You claim that paragon choices doom anyone, or the idea that all men have value, and all are of equal value, is messed up. Well, that is rather messed up by itself, but either way, the very base of your claim is non-existant. Not a single paragon action directly dooms anyone. They can pick up a rifle and fight, for they have the freedom of will, which you have, in the past, supported of removing of various races.

To assert that protecting not only lives, but their value as well, is wrong, and accusing Shepard, who holds little power until he or she collects more by him or herself is ridiculous.

You constantly maintain that people shouldn't have equal value, as you wish to directly remove their lives or freedom of choice to accomplish your goals. Now, what is your excuse for that?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Name ONE thing Cerberus could have done that would have had a better outcome. Just one. Go ahead!

The Collectors were targeting colonies. All the Alliance sent was a few marines and 4 turrets. So what would be your alternative?

Actually give the Alliance time to properly set up those turrets. Might have helped a little. 
That said unlike many experiments this Cerberus mission actually seem justifiable

Since when does Cerberus control the collectors? They strike when they want.

And the turrets were suppsoed to be on-line... But for some reason aren't.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is advanced technology in that base. Period. That is a fact.
Pieces of advanced tech are treated by everyone as important. No one denies reaper tech can catapult humanity hunders of years ahead. Yet you insist there is nothing in the base of worth. You cannot supprot that argument. Sorry.

I'd garner the actual reasoning is that there was nothing in the base that was worth the in several people's eyes percieved threat of keeping it. 

Which is also bollocks.

Super-advanced teach isn't worth it? When the entire galaxy is about to be destroyed?

Advantages of advanced tech are shown in game. They are mentioned by other characters. Like hte prothean chance on mars.
More logical characters (like Morodin and Legion) advocate keeping it.
(Yet because of writer stupidity they change their tune later.)

There is NOTHING in the game to indicate the base is worthless.

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra never get into any positions of power

[Phaedon]

It just dawned upon me:

Soldiers! Don't give yourselves to brutes — men who despise you — enslave you — who regiment your lives — tell you what to do — what to think or what to feel! Who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men — machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don't hate! Only the unloved hate — the unloved and the unnatural!


Hah.

[BoboIII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BoboIII wrote...
Was there any indication that collectors ships wasn't on their way, was there? Or reapers? Or that aren't active indoctrination/huskification devices around? Or that Harbringer is uterly stupid and left any sensible data around? That TIM already has IFF's at hand to move in?

We already knew reapers were on their way. But it was anyones guess as to when they would arrive. And if they did arrive, the base would be insignificant to them.
Were there more collectors inbound? Uknown. Appears they only had one base, so you'd have to wonder where the rest would be.

But you are having a very defeteist attitude. You surrender before you even see the opposition. You don't even TRY to hold the base. Yes, that's jumping the gun.

If there are other Collector assets, where are they? Normandy didn't detect anything on it's way in... there were no other collector ships in system. Even if htere are other collectors ships, they certanly arne't close.


There is advanced technology in that base. Period. That is a fact.
Pieces of advanced tech are treated by everyone as important. No one denies reaper tech can catapult humanity hunders of years ahead. Yet you insist there is nothing in the base of worth. You cannot supprot that argument. Sorry.

You know what? I agree with everything you said here. Actually never claimed differently. Except, even if it would be true, it's hard for me to grasp that all collectors are there in the base, with their only ship and few oculus as defence. I would expect they are all around galaxy doing their thing when they receive distress call from CB. Since i have only Nomandy (one ship) waiting for unknown amount of enemy ships to come trough O4 relay and then to try to escape doesn't sound like a good plan. Can't even rely on my stealth system as it's already proven that it doesn't work against collectors.

Can I sit right by the O4 relay waiting for Cerberus reinforcements with remote detonation control in hand for the worst case scenario? Yes, I can. Was that an option? No. Did TIM even tell me he can send reinforcement? No he didn't. He was busy giving his speech about Cerberus and humanity.

That's one of my main reasons to destroy the base and efectively get rid of collectors threat. Maybe I did jump the gun but there it is, it's done. CB is not only source of reaper technology anyway.

Btw, something of worth is not same as something esential. Is there something of worth there? Sure it is. Is it esential to beat the reapers? I'll consider that reapers are milions years old inteligent beings and that they don't hold means of their destruction on some remote station in the hands of their enslaved race, even if they never thought we could reach it.

Mind you, I see your points. It's nothing new for me. I thought them all long before posting here. Weighed them along with all my points expressed here against multiple possible scenarios. It always, following logically most likely things, comes down to the fact that, at time I'm in, I don't have enough info to justify keeping it as tactical decision. I don't feel good about it but it's too risky for a vague chance for gaining anything in any reasonable time.

You see it differently, which is fine. I respect your reasoning and choice.

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

You constantly maintain that people shouldn't have equal value, as you wish to directly remove their lives or freedom of choice to accomplish your goals. Now, what is your excuse for that?

The needs of my tribe before the needs of yours.

You are 4 or 5 thousand years behind sociological and biological evolution, I am afraid.

The revolution of information has established it well to the point of supranational, global empathy, you see. We have evolved out of feeling empathy only for our other humans of the same nation for quite some time, kingdoms, even more. City states? Clans? Heh. Well, at least most anthropologists agree that tribal empathy is among the very first stages of that evolution.

I'd wager evolution is wiser than you.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 janvier 2012 - 09:00 .

[General User]

The "revolution of information" has also made it easier to hate and steal from one another. For every example of global empathy you can point to there is another of global antipathy and/or apathy guided and shaped by the same forces. 

There is no reaons to think the MEverse would be any different in this regard, indeed it is demonstrably quite the same (Garrus actually makes a comment along these lines on Omega).

Like Admiral White Haven once said: "Historical truths do not change, only the context within which they are applied."

Modifié par General User, 30 janvier 2012 - 09:14 .

[angry_peon]

Yes humanity is as powerful as it is in the ME universe, because we all united under one banner and work together. Trying to do the same on the larger scale, is not stupid at all. It is the next logical step.

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You wish, Phaedon.

It is not a matter of debate, but of a fact.

You clearly did not follow the same Internet and discuss with the same people off and online as I did when situations such as the shooting on Norway, or the revolution at Egypt, to name some recent ones. Supranational empathy occurs as we speak, and has been occuring for dozens of decades.

Not that I've seen. Empathy isn't the reason for tribalism either: it's resources. As long as there isn't enough for everyone, as long as different needs exist, tribalism will exist. It is a fundamental part of the human condition with its origins right down the roots of the evolutionary tree. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

It matters not what you think. Ethnogenesis and tribalism are well documented, with collective empathy being noted, in the creation of "tribes" not only with humans, but dogs and elephants also.

I'd wager you don't understand what evolution it is.

It isn't some force that thinks or does anything really. All it is is adaptation.

I'd wager you aren't aware of what a metaphor is.

At the times when human population was at its lowest, we were divided, wheras, when the opposite occured, the larger the unions were. To take a step back in collective empathy and in the creation of supranational unions, is one step back in evolution (scratch that, several), and therefore, survival.

I'll gladly return tomorrow to note your amusing attempts at proving that humans are not social animals, or that "we were better off as tribes".

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 janvier 2012 - 09:16 .

[General User]

Varhjhin wrote...
Yes humanity is as powerful as it is in the ME universe, because we all united under one banner and work together. Trying to do the same on the larger scale, is not stupid at all. It is the next logical step.

What do you mean by "we"?

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
Actually, that is not my post. However, the poem you seem to quote has less grammatical and spelling mistakes than your usual posts. But here is my actual post, which you yet again, fail to provide a rebuttal towards:[/quote]

Dear lord, the horrible formating..
And a looong post.

And you seem to mistaken me with someone. I rebutted everything you dished out.



[quote]
 When, however, you talk to yourself and admit that "you have nothing", well that's a bit worrying, I reckon.[/quote]

I never admitted to anyhing. How about you stop lying for 5 seconds?




[quote]
TIM is his after his own goals, and that's that. He passed valuable intel on humanity just to see how indoctrination works. [/quote]

You reffer to Grayson experiment? Or hte Horizon? Of which BOTH are reasonable.

[quote]
Saren managed to study indoctrination without a single turian victim, therefore, he is inefficient and moronic.[/qutoe]

Wait..first TIM is a xenophobe... and you complain because he wants ot kill aliens...and now you complain that he doesn't kill aliens?
Which one is it?



[quote]Anything about efficiency and results is pulled out of thin air. It is your personal interpretation of the character, and is unprovable, as there is any source that conclusively proves such wild claims.[/quote]

Nope. It's actually how his character is described.



[quote]
This is the fourth time you get this word wrong. I have pointed it out to you, Spell Check has pointed out to you. Why continue to do it, regardless of the big red line under it?[/quoteg

Because it bothers you.



[quote]
Not only has he not denied the idea that he could do it, not only have you accepted in your previous post that he would do it, but you have also accepted that he has done stupid things in the past, without his judgement being clouded. As a result, it is a logical anticipation for TIM to repeat his stupid line of action, especially when he is desperate, and he is race, towards he is supposedly so devoted towards is one step from extinction.[/quote]

Stop lying. I accepted nothing.

He didn't have to deny it. The idea that he would build a human reaper is as sensible as the idea of Anderson dancing on the presedium in a tutu after setting himself on fire.

I already proved tat building a human reaper accomplished nothing. That he can get the same thing faster and mroe efficient and in a more simpler way. .. Which if he was desperate, woul be even MORE attractive.
Building a human reaper is not only borderline impossible, but it's also a logistical nightmare that Cerberus just can't pull off.

So no. You got no proper argument other than your BASELESS fears.






[quote]
[quote]It just a too big, too long, too impractical waste of resources. And even if he wanted to, he couldn't. A human reaper would need millions of humans.[/quote]
Further logical contradiction. Genetic goo does not instill intelligence or power to the Reapers. You have, yourself said that you may be giving a criminal group a big dreadnaught. The danger that the Reapers pose is maintained in their synthetic components.[/quote]

Wut? What danger? them havign a DN? Big deal. Cerberus is in the bed wit the alliance anyway...and I don't care if they get a DN as long as they use it agaisnt the reapers.



[quote]
I specifically said that just because it seems moronic to you, it doesn't seem that TIM won't do it.
In fact, I pointed out that TIM has indulged in even more far fetched and immature ideas. It's like giving thousands of dollars to an overexcited eleven year old on Christmas Eve. People can do stupid things if they have the means to do it.[/quote] 

And I pointed out that just because it seems moronic to you, it doesn't mena that Anderson wouldn't do it. Or Garrus. Or Shepard. Or whomever. I cna make up BS theries wiht no proper support jsut as well as you can.






[quote]
I actually like how you failed to answer to my post and just repeat your previous point. It's OK, it's always fun to see you not even try to backtrack but just repeat the same thing again and again.[/quote]

Learning from the master... namely you.
You repeat the smae thing, ignore half the arguments and handwave the rest.


[quote]
1) If you do a stupid thing once, it is likely that you will do it again, yes.[/quote]

Not really. And not all things are equally stupid and for the same reason.
And you cna use that reasoning on ANYONE who EVER did anything stupid...and postuate that he will do something even more stupid.
By your logic, everyone would make a human reaper. Even you. You did stupid things. Hence, you'd build a human reper. And the beauty of this logic is that you can't prove me wrong.. Prove to me you wouldn't do it. Go on.


[quote]
2) TIM did more than one stupid things. He has a record in that sort of stuff. In fact, fanatical ultranationalism is stupid by itself.[/quote]

Nah. Me and Saphra already went trough this several times.

[quote]
3) Anderson helped plan the raid. He didn't take a part in it, and he didn't issue any orders.[/quote]

Doesn't matter. He knew hte reapers and coming and that Cerberus was agaisnt them. Stupid.


[quote]
6) People who show repeat reading comprehension issues, both while reading books and online may be stupid.[/quote]

You show repeated reading comprehension issues...


[quote]
7) TIM's problem is not merely his stupidity. I don't assume that stupid people will backstab me. That would be you, and your pathological fear towards people who you consider to have lower intelligence than you.[/quote]

Lol...the irony of you callign me out on pathological fear.
You're not the one to talk..


[quote]
8) You clearly make no attempt at reading or thinking. TIM is stupid AND ruthless AND not loyal at all. Therefore, not trustworthy. Instead, you just blame Anderson for being potentially stupid. Better luck next time.[/quote]

TIM is not stupid. He is rutless (which is a handy trait). He is loyal to humanity.
Therefore, he is trustworthy as an ally.



[quote]
No more moronic than trying to indoctrinate an entire race just by smooth talking to them, developing overglorified jenisars, learning how to rebuild and rebuilding someone with no investigative skills to investigate the random extinction of human colonies.

If build an HR seems moronic to you, then we can just agree that TIM is a moron.[/quote]

No, we can't.




[quote]
Well, sh*t son, it already happenned.

Yes, TIM is an idiot.
You chose to play with the fire, you got burned.
You were wrong, others were right.
I just wish that it was your hand that was burned not any internal components of your body.[/quote]

What happened?

I'm not wrong, I'm right. I know your fragile mind can't take it and you are forced to dwell ever deeper in self-denial to preserve the shattered remains of your dellusions. But hey, we all got ot have a hobby, no?



[quote]
TIM wouldn't do it because he is stupid. He would do it because he is stupid and ruthless and unloyal to Shepard. 

You just seem to not agree that people can be ruthless or unloyal, which falls in line with your utter lack of ethics.[/quote]

Dont' talk to me about ethics. you have proven you have none with our hypocrisy and double-stanard. And willignes to kill off the eniter galaxy for your petty ego.



[quote]
[quote]And like I siad - he didn't needot deny. It's so stupid it warrants no denial.[/quote]
He replied to the question specifically and he said "I'd do anything". So much for warranting no reply, heh.[/quote]

Geez, you like putting things out of context, don't you?
Sorry bub, but that's not an admission, no matter how much you want it to be.




[quote]
No it isn't established. A human reaper is NOT conductive to their goal, is NOT practical, is NOT feasable, does NOT bring results fast, etc, etc - it is everying people like TIM should HATE.[/quote]
Aha!

Contra-di-ction time! 

You have just admitted, twice, that TIM has done stupid things on the past. Therefore, it is established that TIM has gone for such "wastes of resources". Your personal interpretation of the antagonist matters not. What matters is that you claim that TIM will not go for it. Simply because it is a waste of resources. When in fact, in the very same post, you accept that TIM has gone for such "wastes of resources" in the past.

As a result, the "it's a waste of resources so he won't do it" argument is invalid and self-contradictive.[/quote]

nope.

Again, your flawed logic postulates that a narrative necessity (brinign shepard back) with otehr pay-offs (medical technology) is so stupid, then anything else goes.
your'e basicly saying: "TIM put a 60W lightbulb in a 40W socket - he so stupid. He will stick his finger in a socket next!"

Even if I were to agree that Lazarus is somewhat stupid, one stupid action does not mean another, far mroe stupider, is sure to follow. you are basicly using a No Limits fallacy. and those never work.




[quote]
And I wouldn't call creating a super duper dreadnaught a waste of resources by itself. It's all a matter of context. Researching how to bring back the dead for a SINGLE person, and having him or her find out who is abducting human colonies, regardless of their lack of investigative skills.

Now, that's what I call a huge waste of resources.[/quote]

The tech that was used to bring Shep back isnt' magicly gone...
If you find out how to brign one man back, you can bring more


I'll adress the rest of your..."argumets" later..

[Aimi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dear lord, the horrible formating..
And a looong post.

Pot, meet kettle.