1482 réponses à ce sujet

[KotorEffect3]

daqs wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dear lord, the horrible formating..
And a looong post.

Pot, meet kettle.

this

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Since when does Cerberus control the collectors? They strike when they want.

And the turrets were suppsoed to be on-line... But for some reason aren't.

Since they lured them to that colony...? That's the point isn't through Cerberus' manipulations they lure the Collectors that way. Though there was indeed some delay with the turrets, so I guess that mostly nulifies my original point

Advantages of advanced tech are shown in game. They are mentioned by other characters. Like hte prothean chance on mars.
More logical characters (like Morodin and Legion) advocate keeping it.
(Yet because of writer stupidity they change their tune later.)

There is NOTHING in the game to indicate the base is worthless.

I never said it was worthless. 
I just said the point is that some people consider the risk of the base either being in the sole hands of Cerberus or the risk of the Reapers using it's continued existence to their own advantage (spying and indoctrinating) or both to not weigh up to the base's worth.
Not to mention that it is just as much bollocks to think the Reapers would be okay with us getting all that technology if it really was as useful against them as people keep suggesting or if they didn't have some things in place to turn it to their advantage. 

[angry_peon]

General User wrote...

What do you mean by "we"?

Us... You know, the humans.

[General User]

Varhjhin wrote...

General User wrote...

What do you mean by "we"?

Us... You know, the humans.

Ah!  I thought so! 

Just musin' but the thing about there being a "we" or an "us" mean there is always going to be a "them."  Thus illustrating at least the beginnings of a good bit of the Cerberus mindset.

[angry_peon]

General User wrote...
Ah!  I thought so!  
Just musin' but the thing about there being a "we" or an "us" mean there is always going to be a "them."  Thus illustrating at least the beginnings of a good bit of the Cerberus mindset.

...

No.

[Iakus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And what good did his "ehtics" do to the dead krogan?

Nothing.  Mordin still has much to answer for.  And he knows it.

But even Mordin has lines he will not cross. Lines we know TIM won't think twice to cross.

A ticking clock...till the reapers arive.

What do the Reapers have to do with thresher maws, biotic death camps for children, feeding dead admirals to thorian creepers, etc?

[ParagonForLife]

iakus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And what good did his "ehtics" do to the dead krogan?

Nothing.  Mordin still has much to answer for.  And he knows it.

But even Mordin has lines he will not cross. Lines we know TIM won't think twice to cross.

A ticking clock...till the reapers arive.

What do the Reapers have to do with thresher maws, biotic death camps for children, feeding dead admirals to thorian creepers, etc?

Exactly Cerberus will do anything to achive there goal if the Illusive man was given the choice of killing 1 billion humans for Cerberus to have control over the galaxy he whould do it cause he doesnt care about sacrifices as long as hes not the one that has to make them hes fine with letting others die for his ideals but he wont defend them himself

[angry_peon]

@ Luc0s
That and it depends on the scale. I was talking about a point in the past (from MEs current timeframe) where we humans united (and there where also cases of "us and them" from my POV "us" Europeans united with "them", the rest of the world).
I also clearly stated that I would like to see the same ammount of cooperation and unity on a larger scale.

Modifié par Varhjhin, 30 janvier 2012 - 10:28 .

[General User]

Luc0s wrote...

General User wrote...

Varhjhin wrote...

General User wrote...

What do you mean by "we"?

Us... You know, the humans.

Ah!  I thought so! 

Just musin' but the thing about there being a "we" or an "us" mean there is always going to be a "them."  Thus illustrating at least the beginnings of a good bit of the Cerberus mindset.

It's only natural for humans to think in groups. It's perfectly normal to think in terms of "we" and "us" versus "they" and "them". It has nothing to do with Cerberus.

When you watch soccer, it's "us" (your country's football team) versus "them" (the teams from the other countries).

When you're on vacation with your friends, it's "us" (you and your friends) and "them" (the foreign boys).

When you're part of a political party, it's "us" (your political party) versus "them" (any other political party).

When you follow a religion, it's "us" (your religion) versus "them" (any other religion).

When you're part of a galactic community, it's "us" (your species) versus "them" (any other species).


You get the point.

Oh but you're wrong! 

Take all the scenarios you cite, especially the last one as it comes nearest to Cerberus' situation, as long as the "them"'s are honorable, peaceful, and interested in things like "peaceful commerce" and "scientific cooperation" then peaceful coexistence with "them"'s is not only possible, but highly preferable.

But if, however, the "them"'s are greedy, cruel, jealous, murderous, etc., etc., then responding in kind is, though not really an admirable response, at least a completely natural one.  Thus you get an organization like Cerberus.

[Gold Dragon]

When you're part of a galactic community, it's "us" (your species) versus "them" (any other species).

Not really.  Elysium is made up of several species, btw...

And talk of hot topics..... This one is truly smoking!

Modifié par A Golden Dragon, 30 janvier 2012 - 10:56 .

[AlexXIV]

Us and them basically boils down to known and unknown. Strangers are them and family is us. It's a mere question of learning to know 'them' so they can be part of the 'us'. As some people already stated several times in discussions like this, the danger of aliens is not that they are so different from us. It's that 'we' are so much alike. However I think the proper course of action in the long run is to understand each other. I mean we all know how things work. You meet someone, never knew the person before. You talk, start to like each other, become friends, family, whatever. I think most conflicts that exist in our world origin from fear of the unknown. Be it religion, culture, language ... whatever 'they' do different than 'us'.

[General User]

"That's the way things are but not the way things have to be." (I'm not sure the source on that quote, but that's how I'd put it)

And therein lies my fundamental disagreement with Cerberus. They don't think we're ultimately any better than the aliens, I do.

[ParagonForLife]

General User wrote...

"That's the way things are but not the way things have to be." (I'm not sure the source on that quote, but that's how I'd put it)

And therein lies my fundamental disagreement with Cerberus. They don't think we're ultimately any better than the aliens, I do.

being human doesnt make you better  we all make mistakes 

[Peer of the Empire]

AlexXIV wrote...

Us and them basically boils down to known and unknown. Strangers are them and family is us. It's a mere question of learning to know 'them' so they can be part of the 'us'. As some people already stated several times in discussions like this, the danger of aliens is not that they are so different from us. It's that 'we' are so much alike. However I think the proper course of action in the long run is to understand each other. I mean we all know how things work. You meet someone, never knew the person before. You talk, start to like each other, become friends, family, whatever. I think most conflicts that exist in our world origin from fear of the unknown. Be it religion, culture, language ... whatever 'they' do different than 'us'.

Or, people get to know you and realize they just don't like you or want to be like you.

[AlexXIV]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Us and them basically boils down to known and unknown. Strangers are them and family is us. It's a mere question of learning to know 'them' so they can be part of the 'us'. As some people already stated several times in discussions like this, the danger of aliens is not that they are so different from us. It's that 'we' are so much alike. However I think the proper course of action in the long run is to understand each other. I mean we all know how things work. You meet someone, never knew the person before. You talk, start to like each other, become friends, family, whatever. I think most conflicts that exist in our world origin from fear of the unknown. Be it religion, culture, language ... whatever 'they' do different than 'us'.

Or, people get to know you and realize they just don't like you or want to be like you.

You can't have one billion friends anyway.

[RiouHotaru]

 Honestly, regardless of what anyone's personal beliefs are, I know this much:

In ME3, both Paragons and Renegades will be able to achieve an optimal outcome on the basis on their principles.

The keeping of or destruction of the Collector Base will likely play an impact, but not an outstandingly significant one (thank god!)

And that's perfectly cool with me.  ME1 and 2 have both allowed me to achieve optimal results by being either a Paragon or a Renegade, and I'd like that trend to remain.

That way both sides can have their cake and eat it too.



...Unless someone is going to be an idiot and argue one side shouldn't be able to win because they made X decision in Y manner, and then I'll whap you over the back of the head, Agent Gibs-style! 

[General User]

Us and Them
And after all we're only ordinary men

I meant only that you were wrong with regards to these concepts having nothing to do with Cerberus.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
I just said the point is that some people consider the risk of the base either being in the sole hands of Cerberus or the risk of the Reapers using it's continued existence to their own advantage (spying and indoctrinating) or both to not weigh up to the base's worth.

Well, their considerations are wrong.

Cerberus isnt' an issue because they'd use it agaisnt the reapers. They have to to survive.

Indoctrination isn't an issue because IT WILL HAPPEN ANYWAY ONCE THE REAPERS COME.
Now it can happen under a controlled enviroment, in a known location WITH ONLY ONE ENTRACE/EXIT...
Or it can happen en masse at multitude of location during the chaos of war. Which is better?

When do you plan to study indoctrination? During hte most devastating war in the galaxy? When half your popoulation is turned into sleeper agents that sabotage your every attempt at resistance or research? When half of your army has turned against you?

Seriously people. Get some perspecive.

Not to mention that it is just as much bollocks to think the Reapers would be okay with us getting all that technology if it really was as useful against them as people keep suggesting or if they didn't have some things in place to turn it to their advantage. 

Not muhc they can do about it from outside the galaxy, now is there?
Like I said, get what you can and be prepared to blow it up. The point is that many don't even try to get as much as they can.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
[quote]and proved they CAN be controlled. I'd say that is a big plus. And triyng to control Gethis not stupid.[/quote]
It proved the exact opposite, which is why the whole concept of the Project Overlord was stupid.
Only a mathematical savant was able to communicate with them. Not a machine, a human. This is well established, as they had to tie up David and force him to relay orders. The problem with humans, however, you see, is that they need to sleep.[/quote]

Fallacy. David lost control because his stupid brother didn't let him sleep. That is a compeltely separate problem.
Yet you want it to roll into one.
Wether you want to admit it or no, David DID control the Geth. Hence, why the experiment did work.



[quote]
I need not. Again, you seem to have serious problems comprehending
written text. Never did I accuse TIMmy and co. of unleashing a human
wrecking ball across the galaxy. What I did, rather, was them
establishing connection with the Reapers, which, hint, hint, gave them a
LOT of intel about humanity.
[/quote]

Your'e talking abotu Grayson?
What do you think Sovereign was doing? Or Collectors...who were dealing with the Shadow Broker.
If oyu think the reapers already didn't have al ot of intel on humantiy, you are in serious denail.





[quote][quote]
Reapers >>>> Cerberus
Priorities... Dude... You could learn a bit about that.[/quote]

Aha! So you then accept that TIM could fancy making a single Reaper? I mean, your post is supposed to be a reply to that specific portion of my post. A single Reaper who has no chance against a single Reaper fleet?[/quote]

No. Why do you keep asking that? Do you honestly hope I will agree wiht your dellusions?

Reapers are a endlessly bigger problem that Cerberus. Cerberus can wait. The reapers should be the focus. We're gonna need every resource we can muster. That includes Cerberus. What's so hard to understand here?

Yet you insist on wasting resources left and right...




[quote]
Well, not really. I know what you mean, I just want to see you desperately trying to get out of the hole you have dug. There's your post, go explain it.[/quote]

What hole? You got a serious perspective issue. Man, I can  barely see you down there...




[quote][quote]
so do you apprently. So what? His goal is to defeat the reapers.[/quote]

Source? All I have heard is about advancing humanity. He definitely doesn't want to destroy the Reapers, actually. And don't accuse me of metagaming. We are discussing TIM's "morality" and his record of failures.[/quote]

Source is the game. He clearly states:

"My goal is to save humanity from the reaeprs. At any cost. I never hid htat from you."

and given that everyhing he does is conductive to fighting the reapers.... His record of wanting to fight the reapers is clear as day.





[quote]
You accuse us of having "messed up morals", specifically replying to the notion that "It's better to die fighting than turn into your worst enemy". Of course, you are again, full of sh*t. The only value of life is given to it by ethics.[/quote]

Except you don't become the enemy. It's all in your sick mind.

You claim the value to life is given by ethichs? Why don't you value the life of everyon in the galaxy then? You have clearly said  that if they use method X to survive (which could be the ONLY method) they are not worth to live. Thy should all die. Every man, woman, child.
Surviving is never a crime.

And if you want to argue that teh only value to life is given by ehtics...whos' ethics? Ethics are subjective..variable. Cannot be measured.
Life in itself isn't. Life has value in itself. Because you only have on. Because life is potential.




[quote][quote]
And interesting that YOU are the one assiging value and judging people - deciding if they are "worthy" to live or not. Not me. [/quote]
But, alas, Lotion, I find it more intriguing that you are not assigning values to people.

I, and anyone else who believes in ethics, have assigned an equal value towards all people, considering all as equally worthy. You on the other hand, see every human as nothing but your personal toys, them holding no value at all, only existing to help you succeed in your goals.[/quote]

It's actualy you who are doing that. Because I'm not judging people. I'm not assigning them a value. You are. With your own words.
I do not judge and condem the entire galaxy and all generations and children and innocents to death because it offens MY moral compas.
You put your own moral, your own ego above the lives of everyone in the galaxy. In that you are giving them worth. They are ALL worth less than your oppinion.



[quote]
Our lives are by themselves, of no value at all. We will eventually all die, anyway.
Our lives have value because we choose to give them one. And when we choose to value our lives, we choose the way of self-respect and respect towards the lives of others. We don't kill people unless we can avoid it, we don't brainwash anyone, and we sure as hell don't control an entire race to do our own bidding.

And yet, it is you who compares humans to bacteria.
Creatures of no importance, past their own survival.
There are worse things in life, than in death, and to think the opposite is a direct effect of cowardice upon facing your own mortality.[/quote]

When did I compare humans to bacteria?
There are worse things in life..like turning into an amoral monster like you. To hold your own beliefs above everything and everyone... the worst of the religious fanatics wouldbe proud of you..

And you might belive that our lifes by themselves are of no value, and only we give them avlue. But that's BS. Because that means a life has only as much value as a person dictates. If you choose to give the life of person A value X, and someone else choose the value Y, which is it?



[quote]
[quote]I'm not making any value judgments. I'm not saiyng that Timmy should die because the galaxy doesn't conform to my morals.[/quote]
And that is you, but it is not me.[/quote]

That is you. You keeop saying "if we use unethical means to survive, we dont' seserve to live. We're better off dead."
You'd let ther reapers win, because you - oh mighty arbiter of morality - are not satisfied with the populace.


[quote]
No one talked about killing TIM, unless absolutely necessary,  but rather of stopping him from claiming any more lives. That needed to happen since ME2, and the revelations of ME3 make this even more important. And, hey if TIM even redeems himself through actual remorse, everyone is a winner.[/quote]

And we're trying to stop the reaerps from caliming mroe lives.


[quote]
What you, however, do, is dumb down TIM's hundreds if not thousands of direct victims as a mere difference in opinion, further showing what a monstrosity you have turned yourself into.[/quote]

Necessary evil. And things that we can deal with later once the reaeprs are defeated.
I notice how you ingore the TRILLIONS of dead krogan and millions of death quarians. The attrocities of everyone else in the galaxy.



[quote]
And we are talking about you personally here. You dismiss morals completely, yet you claim to be more than flesh and bone. You are lying to yourself.[/quote]

I don't dismiss morals. I just refuse to put my personal morals above everyone else in the galaxy. I'm not that egoistical.

I'd sell my soul to the devil to save the galaxy. You wouldn't. You' rather let the entire galaxy burn than leave your comfort zone.


[quote]
Just as you are lying to yourself and everyone else when you proclaim that ethical people consider other people worthless. You have just accused them of actually putting "value" and "worthiness" to people, when they should not, and then you go ahead and accuse them of considering everyone but them as "worthless".[/quote]

Your words, not mine.
I'm not the one who said that humanity isn't worth saving if it does X.
That's all you.

Lets see YOU backtrack out of this one.



[quote][quote]
Become as monstrous? Loosing all worth?
You already have become a monster. A monster willing to sacrifice anyone and anything for your own piece of mind. 

Don't talk to me about ethics. You couldn't recognize them if they ran you over in a dreadnought.[/quote]
Dreadnoughts can't run over people. They are in space.

You dismiss any worth of the human life, and then accuse moralists of assigning worthiness to people, equally.
You certainly need someone to sit down by you and teach you some basic ethics.

Your irrational fear of death is the one which has rendered you incapable of understanding that it is worse to convict millions of people to a life of suffering, without any respect to any life but their own , than keeping them alive for a few more decades.[/quote]

You're the last person on the planet to teach ethics to anyone.

You dimsiss worth to human life and assing worthiness on the base of your narrow criteria.

Your ego and self-righteousness renders you incapable of understanding that it's not your place to judge; nor is it your place to decide for them if life is worth living or not. But who cares, right? Kill em all, becauise I don't like it so no one must like it!

[Lotion Soronarr]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

daqs wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dear lord, the horrible formating..
And a looong post.

Pot, meet kettle.

this

Nobody asked you drone-boy.