1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And what good did his "ehtics" do to the dead krogan?[/quote]

Nothing.  Mordin still has much to answer for.  And he knows it.

But even Mordin has lines he will not cross. Lines we know TIM won't think twice to cross.[/quote]

No, we don't. We really don't.



[quote]
A ticking clock...till the reapers arive.
[/quote]

What do the Reapers have to do with thresher maws, biotic death camps for children, feeding dead admirals to thorian creepers, etc?
[/quote]

Strengthening of human ground armies. (you're gonna need those too when the reaeprs come)
Keeping things secret.


Let's for a second postulate that without Cerberus and their experiments, the galaxy falls to the repers. Woudl you say Cerberus was justified then?

[angry_peon]

What if the galaxy falls  despite  Cerberus (or, also not unlikely given the new context,  because of  Cerberus)? Which is highly likely, because face it, all their experiments had not much to do with directly defeating the Reapers. Nothing that we know of gives us any means of really stopping them.
Delaying them a bit longer here and there, at best.
Besides I still think that TIM does not want to beat them (because he thinks it's impossible) at all, he always ever says "stop the Reapers". I think he wants to stop them from harvesting humanity, by sacrificing the rest of the galaxy, impressing the Reapers and becoming their willing agents and pawns (if you will, replacing the Collectors).
Something along those lines. Something that makes those two things logically compatible:

1. He wanted to defeat the collectors, and resurrected Humanities finest to do so.
2. In ME 3 he does or says something, that results in the player, without a choice, becoming his mortal enemy.

That would make his path similar to Saren's, make logically sense (indoctrination works similar on both), and that he is partly Husk for many years fits nicely in as well.

Puts all those nice, little experiments in a new light, imo.

Modifié par Varhjhin, 31 janvier 2012 - 09:45 .

[CerberusSoldier]

Varhjhin wrote...

What if the galaxy falls  despite  Cerberus (or, also not unlikely given the new context,  because of  Cerberus)? Which is highly likely, because face it, all their experiments had not much to do with directly defeating the Reapers. Nothing that we know of gives us any means of really stopping them.
Delaying them a bit longer here and there, at best.
Besides I still think that TIM does not want to beat them (because he thinks it's impossible) at all, he always ever says "stop the Reapers". I think he wants to stop them from harvesting humanity, by sacrificing the rest of the galaxy, impressing the Reapers and becoming their willing agents and pawns (if you will, replacing the Collectors).
Something along those lines. Something that makes those two things logically compatible:

1. He wanted to defeat the collectors, and resurrected Humanities finest to do so.
2. In ME 3 he does or says something, that results in the player, without a choice, becoming his mortal enemy.

That would make his path similar to Saren's, make logically sense (indoctrination works similar on both), and that he is partly Husk for many years fits nicely in as well.

Puts all those nice, little experiments in a new light, imo.

   



he may be your shepard's moratl enemy but not mine especially after looking up and seeing the Cerberus part in 3. if you know about Cerberus in 3 he is basically Saren 2.0 which is sad but hey video games will never good stories with this crap

[angry_peon]

I was only suspecting this, now you are spreading leak spoilers again. And no, this is not crap writing. Betrayal by an ally (a shady one in this case) is a common motif in any form of story. Think Saruman from LotR.
You only think it is crap writing, because you are butt-hurt that the anti Cerberus guys where right all the time. TIMs betrayal does not surprise me in the least. My intuition always told me not to trust him as far as I could throw him. The hints where all over the place for two games.
I think it's hilarious how you fell for him, just because he has a charismatic voice actor (who said himself he would not trust TIM).

[CerberusSoldier]

no I like stories that do things differently and plus TIM could have been a very interesting character. Its complete crap that Bioware is going back to basically retelling ME 1 all over again with one difference Earth is involved this time . I accept that coming from a actor like him but now me and many others who read the script sees the utter bull crap story ME 3 is

[LPPrince]

So, lets count Cerberus' stupidity in Deception.

[CerberusSoldier]

LPPrince wrote...

So, lets count Cerberus' stupidity in Deception.

   


Oh thats typical BSN always crap on Cerberus well thats fine . last I remeber the clowns at the alliance were spying on Shepard in 2 and making him a pawn for their stupid fear of war game .

[angry_peon]

CerberusSoldier wrote...

no I like stories that do things differently and plus TIM could have been a very interesting character. Its complete crap that Bioware is going back to basically retelling ME 1 all over again with one difference Earth is involved this time . I accept that coming from a actor like him but now me and many others who read the script sees the utter bull crap story ME 3 is

I would believe you (and I agree that something a little more unconventional would have been nice), but from you "hate" towards Biowares decision I take there is more to it. You have been wrong and that upsets you. Only natural.
Doesn't make what is a conventional, yet solild story (because it was properly foreshadowed, you just chose to ignore those signs) any worse.
They planned Cerberus/TIM to be badguys from the beginning (portrayal in ME 1 should prove this). Coming full circle in ME 3 is just what most people expected and wanted to happen.
From our perspective that needed twist to it, was that we had to work with them in ME2. That was the inteded "difference" from ususal Bad vs. Good.
Not from your perspective, because you think working for Cerberus in ME2 was the right and desirable thing, and you wanted to continue this.
Not my problem, not Biowares, but yours.

Modifié par Varhjhin, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:53 .

[LPPrince]

CerberusSoldier wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

So, lets count Cerberus' stupidity in Deception.

   


Oh thats typical BSN always crap on Cerberus well thats fine . last I remeber the clowns at the alliance were spying on Shepard in 2 and making him a pawn for their stupid fear of war game .

At the same time as Cerberus(while trying to save humanity) made Shepard their pawn for their quest for power?

Yeah...

That on top of adrenaline junkie, cereal eating, sharpened toothbrush wielding assassins who ****** in vases tells me that Cerberus can be defended just as poorly and exceptionally as they can be attacked.

Ah well. Argument will go nowhere.

We're gonna be killing Cerberus in ME3 anyway, so I'm happy.

*galavants off to the Deception thread*

[angry_peon]

Yeah it is very rewarding when you where against Cerberus from the beginning. Instead of becoming Cerberus' tool you made them yours.
My Shep achieved what he wanted, and TIM/Cerberus can suck it. I LOVE this ending and I am looking forward to the revelation that my intuition about them was right, and I can bring righteous retribution to them.

[Dave of Canada]

LPPrince wrote...

We're gonna be killing Cerberus in ME3 anyway, so I'm happy.

And that's why Bioware is doing it, pleasing the "moral" masses.

Who cares about story integrity or moral complexity.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

We're gonna be killing Cerberus in ME3 anyway, so I'm happy.

And that's why Bioware is doing it, pleasing the "moral" masses.

Who cares about story integrity or moral complexity.

Too bad that Cerberus never had that.

Legion's and Mordin's loyalty missions were closer to moral complexity than TIM ever were.

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, their considerations are wrong.

Cerberus isnt' an issue because they'd use it agaisnt the reapers. They have to to survive.

Indoctrination isn't an issue because IT WILL HAPPEN ANYWAY ONCE THE REAPERS COME.
Now it can happen under a controlled enviroment, in a known location WITH ONLY ONE ENTRACE/EXIT...
Or it can happen en masse at multitude of location during the chaos of war. Which is better?

When do you plan to study indoctrination? During hte most devastating war in the galaxy? When half your popoulation is turned into sleeper agents that sabotage your every attempt at resistance or research? When half of your army has turned against you?

Seriously people. Get some perspecive.

So now the CB is suddenly an indoctrination experiment? I thought it was about all the advanced technology that would give us the needed edge over the Reapers?

Not muhc they can do about it from outside the galaxy, now is there?
Like I said, get what you can and be prepared to blow it up. The point is that many don't even try to get as much as they can.

Yet Harbinger was directly interacting with you throughout the game and we see he has direct access to the Collector Base. 
I think you might be underestimating the Reapers and indoctrination and the problems it can cause.

Dave of Canada wrote...

And that's why Bioware is doing it, pleasing the "moral" masses.

Who cares about story integrity or moral complexity.

It might be not caring about moral complexity, but I can't really see anyway in which story integrity is really harmed.

[BoboIII]

I, as well, always suspected TIM is indoctrinated, not fully indoctrinated but in first stages of indoctrination. From the, like first moment I talked to him. Call it a hunch, intuition, whatever. After that, Cerberus being indoctrinated in ME3 doesn't come as a shocker.

Following all that happens in ME1 and ME2, TIM having visible reaper tech in him, one could at least consider it that he may be indoctrinated. It put things in whole different perspective.

Also, however you put it, some of his actions doesn't make much sense. For instance, his communication with you. On one hand, he is keeping info from you sending you blindly on missions because he is afraid to tip of sensitive info to collectors. On other hand he is speaking with you freely about IFF and SM. Either he feels more then secure with quantum entanglement communication and deliberately lied to you before, for whatever reason, or he deliberately tipping you off to collectors trying to kill you either way.

Or he is so confident in you that no matter what, no matter the odds, you will win. And his plan to beat the reapers is to send you into dark space to kill them off. Thank you, but no thank you.

Anyways, it's a matter of personal opinion/assessment/hunch/whatever. It can't be proved or disproved. We will see how it plays out and what is explanation if there will be any for Cerberus being indoctrinated in ME3.

Modifié par BoboIII, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:57 .

[angry_peon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

And that's why Bioware is doing it, pleasing the "moral" masses.

Who cares about story integrity or moral complexity.

No, moral complexity was provided when we had to work with the monster in ME 2, to safe lives that where endangered right now.
It is also provided by showing that not all Cerberus agents are bad people (that's why I am also not keen to kill their soldiers in ME3, I just want to take TIM out)
Some of you have screwed morals and think they were actually doing good work over all, but you are wrong.
Bioware clearly sees it that way, and always portrayed Cerberus accordingly. As I said, you fell for TIMS charismatic portrayal. He told you he wants to stop the Reapers at any cost.
Your brain painted a picture where Cerberus provided the only way to crush them.
In reality he talked about submitting to them, and saving humanity at the cost of all other lives or something similar. And for that goal he really worked hard.

No, for me working for Cerberus was cringeworthy, moraly difficult, enough, and now I just want TIM to pay for everything he did and tried to do.

Now just admit you were wrong, which is morally much more comlpex than reveling in edgy, gritty, grimdark pseudorealism (if the Reaper threat was real, we were screwed, simple as that), and go with it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Varhjhin wrote...

What if the galaxy falls  despite  Cerberus (or, also not unlikely given the new context,  because of  Cerberus)? Which is highly likely, because face it, all their experiments had not much to do with directly defeating the Reapers. Nothing that we know of gives us any means of really stopping them.

Then we're all dead anyway... And at least Cerberus tried.

Besides I still think that TIM does not want to beat them (because he thinks it's impossible) at all, he always ever says "stop the Reapers". I think he wants to stop them from harvesting humanity, by sacrificing the rest of the galaxy, impressing the Reapers and becoming their willing agents and pawns (if you will, replacing the Collectors).

Actually he wants to save humantiy from the reaeprs. His own words.
If he can take control over the reaeprs to stop them - even better. That gives humanity and unprecedented advantage.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, their considerations are wrong.

Cerberus isnt' an issue because they'd use it agaisnt the reapers. They have to to survive.

Indoctrination isn't an issue because IT WILL HAPPEN ANYWAY ONCE THE REAPERS COME.
Now it can happen under a controlled enviroment, in a known location WITH ONLY ONE ENTRACE/EXIT...
Or it can happen en masse at multitude of location during the chaos of war. Which is better?

When do you plan to study indoctrination? During hte most devastating war in the galaxy? When half your popoulation is turned into sleeper agents that sabotage your every attempt at resistance or research? When half of your army has turned against you?

Seriously people. Get some perspecive.

So now the CB is suddenly an indoctrination experiment? I thought it was about all the advanced technology that would give us the needed edge over the Reapers?

It is. But if there is indoctrination equipment in there, then it cna be used to study that too.

Indoctrination is the reaeprs most powerfull weapon after all.

Not muhc they can do about it from outside the galaxy, now is there?
Like I said, get what you can and be prepared to blow it up. The point is that many don't even try to get as much as they can.

Yet Harbinger was directly interacting with you throughout the game and we see he has direct access to the Collector Base. 
I think you might be underestimating the Reapers and indoctrination and the problems it can cause.

He HAD direct acess. You kill off all the Collectors and the Collector general. The base is yours for the taking.
If you capture an enemy asset, you use it against him. You milk the sucker dry.
You don't run away like a pansy before the enemy even shows up.

It might be not caring about moral complexity, but I can't really see anyway in which story integrity is really harmed.

LOl...please...ME2 is so full fo bad writing it's hilarious. ME3 is looking much worse.

[AlexXIV]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

We're gonna be killing Cerberus in ME3 anyway, so I'm happy.

And that's why Bioware is doing it, pleasing the "moral" masses.

Who cares about story integrity or moral complexity.

Too bad that Cerberus never had that.

Legion's and Mordin's loyalty missions were closer with moral complexity than TIM ever were.

As often people confuse excuses for ruthless powerstruggle to moral ambiguity. Just because people have excuses for their crimes doesn't make them morale complex. Just very good liars maybe.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

BoboIII wrote...
Also, however you put it, some of his actions doesn't make much sense. For instance, his communication with you. On one hand, he is keeping info from you sending you blindly on missions because he is afraid to tip of sensitive info to collectors. On other hand he is speaking with you freely about IFF and SM. Either he feels more then secure with quantum entanglement communication and deliberately lied to you before, for whatever reason, or he deliberately tipping you off to collectors trying to kill you either way.

Not necessarily.

Rember that the Collector cruiser was a trap.
If the Collectors suspected anything, they would have packed up. There's a number of ways one can reveal his card. Shepard beign too cautious could have tipepd them off.
He was more concered with something Shep could do, then a information leak...at least that how I see it.

[Someone With Mass]

AlexXIV wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

We're gonna be killing Cerberus in ME3 anyway, so I'm happy.

And that's why Bioware is doing it, pleasing the "moral" masses.

Who cares about story integrity or moral complexity.

Too bad that Cerberus never had that.

Legion's and Mordin's loyalty missions were closer with moral complexity than TIM ever were.

As often people confuse excuses for ruthless powerstruggle to moral ambiguity. Just because people have excuses for their crimes doesn't make them morale complex. Just very good liars maybe.

I think a closer and a slightly more accurate term would be a moral dilemma, but many other characters and missions have them beat there as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Varhjhin wrote...
No, moral complexity was provided when we had to work with the monster in ME 2, to safe lives that where endangered right now.

Harldy a morally complex game when Paragon path is all sunshine and puppies.
And you are faced withan even greater danger in ME3, yet NOTWyou can't work together to save mroe lives? Where is the sense in that?

Some of you have screwed morals and think they were actually doing good work over all, but you are wrong.
Bioware clearly sees it that way, and always portrayed Cerberus accordingly. As I said, you fell for TIMS charismatic portrayal. He told you he wants to stop the Reapers at any cost.
Your brain painted a picture where Cerberus provided the only way to crush them.
In reality he talked about submitting to them, and saving humanity at the cost of all other lives or something similar. And for that goal he really worked hard.

Wut? Where do you get this rom? Where did TIMever say soemthing liek that?
Don't present your fantasies as fact please.

And yes, Cerberus is attempting to do good work overall.

Now just admit you were wrong, which is morally much more comlpex than reveling in edgy, gritty, grimdark pseudorealism (if the Reaper threat was real, we were screwed, simple as that), and go with it.

:lol::lol:

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
And that's why Bioware is doing it, pleasing the "moral" masses.

Who cares about story integrity or moral complexity.

Too bad that Cerberus never had that.

Legion's and Mordin's loyalty missions were closer with moral complexity than TIM ever were.

As often people confuse excuses for ruthless powerstruggle to moral ambiguity. Just because people have excuses for their crimes doesn't make them morale complex. Just very good liars maybe.

Unfortunately the world is full of such struggle.
As distastefull as many methods are, they are often necessary.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Luc0s wrote...
You're deluded and you see stuff that isn't even there. Your entire "theory" is completely based on your personal biases and speculations. Not a single fact supports your insane "theory" that TIM somehow is Saren version 2.0.

Didn't the devs confirm several times that TIM isn't indoctrinated?

Nevermind that 20 years of "light" indoctrination is impossible.

[CerberusSoldier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Varhjhin wrote...
No, moral complexity was provided when we had to work with the monster in ME 2, to safe lives that where endangered right now.

Harldy a morally complex game when Paragon path is all sunshine and puppies.
And you are faced withan even greater danger in ME3, yet NOTWyou can't work together to save mroe lives? Where is the sense in that?

Some of you have screwed morals and think they were actually doing good work over all, but you are wrong.
Bioware clearly sees it that way, and always portrayed Cerberus accordingly. As I said, you fell for TIMS charismatic portrayal. He told you he wants to stop the Reapers at any cost.
Your brain painted a picture where Cerberus provided the only way to crush them.
In reality he talked about submitting to them, and saving humanity at the cost of all other lives or something similar. And for that goal he really worked hard.

Wut? Where do you get this rom? Where did TIMever say soemthing liek that?
Don't present your fantasies as fact please.

And yes, Cerberus is attempting to do good work overall.

Now just admit you were wrong, which is morally much more comlpex than reveling in edgy, gritty, grimdark pseudorealism (if the Reaper threat was real, we were screwed, simple as that), and go with it.

:lol::lol: 







Oh please if the reapers were any threat at all Bioware would have made them the main focus but oh they need a 2nd enemy to go with the story . Bioware is sucking up to all the cry babies and whiners from ME 2 . thats fine but if Bioware thinks that this hot garabge is on the same level as Star Wars or Star Trek they can think again . this more like lets re do ME 1 only this time include Earth in it and play the ol Earth is danger card that is not even a new idea . hell Ken Johnson told a alien inavsion of Earth called V better than this crap is . but hey paragon and anti Cerberus looks like your crying got a big fat payday .