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[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
You're deluded and you see stuff that isn't even there. Your entire "theory" is completely based on your personal biases and speculations. Not a single fact supports your insane "theory" that TIM somehow is Saren version 2.0.

Didn't the devs confirm several times that TIM isn't indoctrinated?

Nevermind that 20 years of "light" indoctrination is impossible.

Well, maybe TIM gets indoctrinated in ME3 (*spoiler*: some parts of the leaked script do hint towards that). But it is indeed an established fact that TIM was not indoctrinated during ME2.

Where is it established if I may ask?

[DJBare]

There should have been an option for my renegade Shepard to continue working with cerburus in ME3, this is the kind of ending I would have liked for my renegade.

As the end battle is completed, Shepard gets knocked unconscious in the final blast, he then wakes up on an operating table in a cerburus facility with TIM's holograph looking down at him, Shepard attempts to get up and realizes he is restrained, TIM looks at Shepard and sincerely thanks him for defeating the reapers, then states, but you have betrayed many along the way, you cannot be trusted, you have proven yourself powerful and a threat to our continued domination, now we are going to remove the implants and study you, to do this we need you awake for the procedure, a laser scalpel starts to move towards Shepard, the screen fades to black amidst screams.

[angry_peon]

Oh I see I've hit a nerve there. No Bioware is not retconning their story to please the crowd, they are telling the story they wanted to tell. The way it should be.
The fact that they don't listen to your ramblnigs does not make
1. The story bad
2. Biwoare suck
3. The game suck
It only makes the story not going as you wished it would. As I said, your problem entirely, because you morally sided with the wrong guys. Simple as that.

You take Biowares decisions as a personal affront because of this, and because of all the people who always told you trusting TIM and Cerberus was wrong, and now yor realize they where correct.

I know I'm right because the normal reaction to a storyline being less complex than whished would be "meh, could have been better" and  "meh, whished I could work with Cerberus more" not that ****load of anger, I see here every day.
And be aware that all that burning hatred really makes my day and provides me with a constant smile on my face both while reading your lines and writing my own.  It's almost as good as seeing TIMs face as he realizes that my Shep used him as a tool to get rid of the Collectors, as I blow up his precioussss.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

There should have been an option for my renegade Shepard to continue working with cerburus in ME3, this is the kind of ending I would have liked for my renegade.

As the end battle is completed, Shepard gets knocked unconscious in the final blast, he then wakes up on an operating table in a cerburus facility with TIM's holograph looking down at him, Shepard attempts to get up and realizes he is restrained, TIM looks at Shepard and sincerely thanks him for defeating the reapers, then states, but you have betrayed many along the way, you cannot be trusted, you have proven yourself powerful and a threat to our continued domination, now we are going to remove the implants and study you, to do this we need you awake for the procedure, a laser scalpel starts to move towards Shepard, the screen fades to black amidst screams.

What the hell would Cerberus need Shep for if they defeated the reapers? They'd have all that lovely repaer tech.
Plus, they are the one that put in all the implats, so there's nothing to gain from Shepard.

[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What the hell would Cerberus need Shep for if they defeated the reapers? They'd have all that lovely repaer tech.
Plus, they are the one that put in all the implats, so there's nothing to gain from Shepard.

Did you even bother reading my "short" story, the renegade will have likely betrayed many along the way, I know mine did, I would never trusts anyone who can betray others so easily, why should TIM trust him?,killing Shepard would be TIM's primary goal in my short story, the pulling of the implants is just to tell Shepard how he's going to die.

[AlexXIV]

Well I wish I could have worked with the Alliance more in ME2. It would really be something if you got to choose to work with Cerberus or the Alliance in ME3. But obviously this kind of thing won't happen. In ME2 we are forced to work with Cerberus and in ME3 against them. The problem is imo that Bioware is telling their story too much and not letting players choose their story. One should assume 'meaningful decisions' are more than about who is your LI or friend or who is just some person who isn't special to you but works with you anyway because the plot demands it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Varhjhin wrote...

Oh I see I've hit a nerve there. No Bioware is not retconning their story to please the crowd, they are telling the story they wanted to tell. The way it should be.
The fact that they don't listen to your ramblnigs does not make
1. The story bad
2. Biwoare suck
3. The game suck
It only makes the story not going as you wished it would. As I said, your problem entirely, because you morally sided with the wrong guys. Simple as that.

I'm sorry, but the story IS bad. Even kids can point out the flaws..Literally. Check you tube.
If it has flaws that even ak id can spot - and find a way to fix - in 5 minutes, then it's terribly sloppy.

Bioware has started to slowly suck..contaminated with EA it seems.

The game as a whole does not suck. Aloutgh wiht ME3, we must wait and see,

I know I'm right because the normal reaction to a storyline being less complex than whished would be "meh, could have been better" and  "meh, whished I could work with Cerberus more" not that ****load of anger, I see here every day.

You don't know poeple or the internet, do you?
Aroudn these parts, that pretty much IS a normal reaction.

And be aware that all that burning hatred really makes my day and provides me with a constant smile on my face both while reading your lines and writing my own.  It's almost as good as seeing TIMs face as he realizes that my Shep used him as a tool to get rid of the Collectors, as I blow up his precioussss.

And knowing that you being provably wrong (about how logical a decision was) brings a smile on my face.
Adn ther's nothing ME3 can do to chagne that

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What the hell would Cerberus need Shep for if they defeated the reapers? They'd have all that lovely repaer tech.
Plus, they are the one that put in all the implats, so there's nothing to gain from Shepard.

Did you even bother reading my "short" story, the renegade will have likely betrayed many along the way, I know mine did, I would never trusts anyone who can betray others so easily, why should TIM trust him?,killing Shepard would be TIM's primary goal in my short story, the pulling of the implants is just to tell Shepard how he's going to die.

You have a idea that rengeade = evil and trator.
That is not the case.

Even if TIM doesn't trust Shep, he is still usefull. And if he wants to kill him, a bullet to the head will do just fine. Pointelss torture is pointless.

[Iakus]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, we don't. We really don't.[/quote]

Actually, we do.  We see the evidence in both games.  Mordin told that experimenting on sentient beings "species with members capable of calculus) is one rule he never broke.  Cerberus, and TIM have done so numerous times.



[quote]
A ticking clock...till the reapers arive.
[/quote]

What do the Reapers have to do with thresher maws, biotic death camps for children, feeding dead admirals to thorian creepers, etc?
[/quote]

Strengthening of human ground armies. (you're gonna need those too when the reaeprs come)
Keeping things secret.


Let's for a second postulate that without Cerberus and their experiments, the galaxy falls to the repers. Woudl you say Cerberus was justified then?
[/quote]

Meaningless speculation,  It assumes there's no other way to beat the Reapers, and that Cerberus' experiments so far have produced anything that can fight them better than what the Alliance already has.  If anything I'd say Cerberus has weakened the galaxy slightly, just from mortality rates. 

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What the hell would Cerberus need Shep for if they defeated the reapers? They'd have all that lovely repaer tech.
Plus, they are the one that put in all the implats, so there's nothing to gain from Shepard.

Did you even bother reading my "short" story, the renegade will have likely betrayed many along the way, I know mine did, I would never trusts anyone who can betray others so easily, why should TIM trust him?,killing Shepard would be TIM's primary goal in my short story, the pulling of the implants is just to tell Shepard how he's going to die.

You have a idea that rengeade = evil and trator.
That is not the case.

Even if TIM doesn't trust Shep, he is still usefull. And if he wants to kill him, a bullet to the head will do just fine. Pointelss torture is pointless.

No his idea is that renegades are untrustworthy/unstable. Which is kind of within the definition of the word. Someone who thinks that loyality is important won't switch sides whenever it suits him.

[Dave of Canada]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

It might be not caring about moral complexity, but I can't really see anyway in which story integrity is really harmed.

While it does include Cerberus, I'd say making most characters which the Paragon playerbase dislikes into antagonists through indoctrination as harmful to the integrity of the story. A lot of segments feel included simply for pandering.

[CerberusSoldier]

Varhjhin wrote...

Oh I see I've hit a nerve there. No Bioware is not retconning their story to please the crowd, they are telling the story they wanted to tell. The way it should be.
The fact that they don't listen to your ramblnigs does not make
1. The story bad
2. Biwoare suck
3. The game suck
It only makes the story not going as you wished it would. As I said, your problem entirely, because you morally sided with the wrong guys. Simple as that.

You take Biowares decisions as a personal affront because of this, and because of all the people who always told you trusting TIM and Cerberus was wrong, and now yor realize they where correct.

I know I'm right because the normal reaction to a storyline being less complex than whished would be "meh, could have been better" and  "meh, whished I could work with Cerberus more" not that ****load of anger, I see here every day.
And be aware that all that burning hatred really makes my day and provides me with a constant smile on my face both while reading your lines and writing my own.  It's almost as good as seeing TIMs face as he realizes that my Shep used him as a tool to get rid of the Collectors, as I blow up his precioussss.

  




Oh please really this company talks all this crap about choice matters but when it comes to ME 2 they spent the whole game beating you over the head with how everyone hates you because you work for Ceberus and you tell me and other renegade players should not be mad. This company has always backed the paragons as it releates to ME . you and the rest of the paragons and anti Cerberus fans got your wish in 3 hell I guess enough crying and moaning and you can get what ever you want . you paragons can basically eat a big fat you know what . Thank God tthat this company has to include the Jedi and Sith in Star Wars TOR . at least with Star Wars they can not screw us Sith fans

[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You have a idea that rengeade = evil and trator.
That is not the case.

If you sided with Cerburus ideals, then you do betray many.

Even if TIM doesn't trust Shep, he is still usefull. And if he wants to kill him, a bullet to the head will do just fine. Pointelss torture is pointless.

He "could" be useful, but this is the guy that just defeated the reapers, TIM would view him as a major threat to his own power, and as I've said, it's all about betrayal, and torture is not a problem for TIM.

[CerberusSoldier]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

It might be not caring about moral complexity, but I can't really see anyway in which story integrity is really harmed.

While it does include Cerberus, I'd say making most characters which the Paragon playerbase dislikes into antagonists through indoctrination as harmful to the integrity of the story. A lot of segments feel included simply for pandering.

   



Its straight up pandering to the paragons they were so mad with 2 looks like bioware fixed that .

[AlexXIV]

iakus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, we don't. We really don't.

Actually, we do.  We see the evidence in both games.  Mordin told that experimenting on sentient beings "species with members capable of calculus) is one rule he never broke.  Cerberus, and TIM have done so numerous times.

A ticking clock...till the reapers arive.

What do the Reapers have to do with thresher maws, biotic death camps for children, feeding dead admirals to thorian creepers, etc?

Strengthening of human ground armies. (you're gonna need those too when the reaeprs come)
Keeping things secret.


Let's for a second postulate that without Cerberus and their experiments, the galaxy falls to the repers. Woudl you say Cerberus was justified then?

Meaningless speculation,  It assumes there's no other way to beat the Reapers, and that Cerberus' experiments so far have produced anything that can fight them better than what the Alliance already has.  If anything I'd say Cerberus has weakened the galaxy slightly, just from mortality rates. 

Well adjusting the genophage kind of throws Mordin's morale compass out of the window. I am not sure how experimenting on sentient beings can be justified easier than the genophage. An entire race brought on the brink of extinction. Not to mention the stillbirths and their psychological/social/diplomatic consequences. I think Cerberus isn't really worse than alien black ops in the past. Which doesn't really justify Cerberus, but let's not pretend the aliens are better.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 janvier 2012 - 02:34 .

[Iakus]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well adjusting the genophage kind of throws Mordin's morale compass out of the window. I am not sure how experimenting on sentient beings can be justified easier than the genophage. And entire race brought on the brink of extinction. Not to mention the stillbirths and their psychological/social/diplomatic consequences. I think Cerberus isn't really worse than alien black ops in the past. Which doesn't really justify Cerberus, but let's not pretend the aliens are better.

Mordin justified it by claiming the genophage doesn't kill, and is not a sterility plague.  Shepard (and the player) can of course disagree with this.

But the destruction of krogan society and the deaths that caused as a result of the genophage are things that haunt Mordin.  Law of unintended consequences and all.

I'm certainly not saying Mordin is a "nice guy"  He's capable of being cold and ruthless when need be.  But I am saying that he is not the moral equivalent of TIM.  Mordin has lines he won't cross.  One may argue that they are not placed appropriately, but they're there.  The Illusive Man, so far as I can see, has no lines to cross.

[AlexXIV]

iakus wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well adjusting the genophage kind of throws Mordin's morale compass out of the window. I am not sure how experimenting on sentient beings can be justified easier than the genophage. And entire race brought on the brink of extinction. Not to mention the stillbirths and their psychological/social/diplomatic consequences. I think Cerberus isn't really worse than alien black ops in the past. Which doesn't really justify Cerberus, but let's not pretend the aliens are better.

Mordin justified it by claiming the genophage doesn't kill, and is not a sterility plague.  Shepard (and the player) can of course disagree with this.

But the destruction of krogan society and the deaths that caused as a result of the genophage are things that haunt Mordin.  Law of unintended consequences and all.

I'm certainly not saying Mordin is a "nice guy"  He's capable of being cold and ruthless when need be.  But I am saying that he is not the moral equivalent of TIM.  Mordin has lines he won't cross.  One may argue that they are not placed appropriately, but they're there.  The Illusive Man, so far as I can see, has no lines to cross.

Well we don't see lines TIM wouldn't cross. But it doesn't mean there are none. Yeah I also think TIM would probably have done the same as Mordin when he was in his place. But Mordin wouldn't probably have done everything TIM did. Then again, they come from a different background and go through different situations. And that people who crossed lines once will do it again applies to both of them. As far as I am concerned Mordin still has to make up for his actions (aka curing the genophage or helping the Krogans to overcome it). And so does TIM.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 janvier 2012 - 02:49 .

[angry_peon]

I'm sorry, but the story IS bad. Even kids can point out the flaws..Literally. Check you tube.
If it has flaws that even ak id can spot - and find a way to fix - in 5 minutes, then it's terribly sloppy.

Bioware has started to slowly suck..contaminated with EA it seems.

Have I said the story was oh so great? No, it is solid enough to provide me with a good gaming experience though.

What I find telling, is that you guys seem so worked up over that one detail (that Cerberus are going to be bad guys) despite not being a plot hole or something else that desevres rightful and objective (meaning other than taste) critizism.
Why should TIM be plot-immune to be a traitor? Who says this is wrong or right? It is Bioware's story and they wanted him to be a bad guy. They provide him with a motivation (saving humanity at cost of all freedom and the rest of the galaxy), and that motivation has been successfully used throughout history of story-telling (like in Half Life 2, where Dr. Breen made pretty much the same deal with the Combine, Half Life 2's story was decent enough, no?).
I think it is atually a neat device, that adds some dramatic weight to TIM. He really thinks he is saving humanity this way. But we can't let him do it, under no circumstances, so he has to be stopped.
That it is awfully similar to ME 1 and Saren actually makes sense, because both are indoctrinated, so it is only logical that the effects are more or less the same.
So yes, I agree (have done so earlier but anyway) that MEs story is a bit simple, and it has some plot holes and flaws, but Cerberus as bad guys is both a minor thing in the bigger picture, and I say it again, as I always presumed it would be. Feels very natural after all I've seen and heard in ME 1 and 2.

Modifié par Varhjhin, 31 janvier 2012 - 02:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, we don't. We really don't.

Actually, we do.  We see the evidence in both games.  Mordin told that experimenting on sentient beings "species with members capable of calculus) is one rule he never broke.  Cerberus, and TIM have done so numerous times.

THAT rule. What about other rules? How do you know Cerberus has no rules?

And how does Morodin not crossing that line make it any better? If you excuse me, but experimenting on a dozen sentients is less wrong that killing billions.
Say whatever you want, but Cerberus can't come even close to the death toll the Council perpertated.

Let's for a second postulate that without Cerberus and their experiments, the galaxy falls to the repers. Woudl you say Cerberus was justified then?

Meaningless speculation,  It assumes there's no other way to beat the Reapers, and that Cerberus' experiments so far have produced anything that can fight them better than what the Alliance already has.  If anything I'd say Cerberus has weakened the galaxy slightly, just from mortality rates. 

A hypothetical scenario. Why do you refuse to answer the question?

[Xilizhra]

Say whatever you want, but Cerberus can't come even close to the death toll the Council perpertated.

Well, duh. Cerberus is thousands of years younger than the Council. Give it time.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You have a idea that rengeade = evil and trator.
That is not the case.

If you sided with Cerburus ideals, then you do betray many.

I said with whatever side wants to save the galaxy.
Saving the galaxy is the only moral I recognize.

also, treason is a matter of perspective. I say a Shepard that destroys the CB betrayed he entire galaxy.

Even if TIM doesn't trust Shep, he is still usefull. And if he wants to kill him, a bullet to the head will do just fine. Pointelss torture is pointless.

He "could" be useful, but this is the guy that just defeated the reapers, TIM would view him as a major threat to his own power, and as I've said, it's all about betrayal, and torture is not a problem for TIM.

Actually, find one instance where TIM imployed useless torture. I don't recall any.

[Xilizhra]

Let's for a second postulate that without Cerberus and their experiments, the galaxy falls to the repers. Woudl you say Cerberus was justified then?

I need more details. Was Cerberus doing this only for the purpose of stopping the Reapers, and would decommission all experiments immediately thereafter? Were said experiments the only possible way of ever stopping the Reapers, with no possible alternative, especially including making more people aware of them? Were they aware of this? And so on.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...
Mordin justified it by claiming the genophage doesn't kill, and is not a sterility plague.  Shepard (and the player) can of course disagree with this.

Wrex would like to have a word with you.

I recall him talking about mountains of dead featuses..unelss Bio retconned that. But then again, Bio has no clue as to how biology works, given Morodins technobbble about humans genetics.

I'm certainly not saying Mordin is a "nice guy"  He's capable of being cold and ruthless when need be.  But I am saying that he is not the moral equivalent of TIM.  Mordin has lines he won't cross.  One may argue that they are not placed appropriately, but they're there.  The Illusive Man, so far as I can see, has no lines to cross.

I don't believe anyone here claimed TIM was a "nice guy". He can't really afford to be one.
but we dont' really know about any lines.
Furthermore, conditions change the lines. Things you may not be willing to do in situation  A because something you would in situation B.

[General User]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

It might be not caring about moral complexity, but I can't really see anyway in which story integrity is really harmed.

While it does include Cerberus, I'd say making most characters which the Paragon playerbase dislikes into antagonists through indoctrination as harmful to the integrity of the story. A lot of segments feel included simply for pandering.

Cheap pandering at that. 

When a theme that basically boils down to: "You know that guy most of you always hated?  Well now he's REALLY evil, go get him!" not only enters the narrative but does so not as the result of any sort of character development or revelation but rather what is essentially an alien mind control ray, more sophisticated consumers are going to cry "foul" (or just keep their wallets closed).