1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
What have they changed to be retroactivally Cerberus' fault?

Well, I'll give you one example from the script...

Recall that alliance base on the moon with the rogue AI? That rouge AI was EDI 1.0. Cerberus did it.

And yes, you can't go 5 sentaces wihotu someone reminding you how evil Cerberus is. I've never seen something so ham-fisted in my life.

Noober is more subtle!

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A hypothetical scenario. Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Good things may be the result of the actions of bad people. But it doesn't mean we should tolerate or support bad people or bad actions.

We should tolerate them if they are necessary. We already do.

If they are necessary they are not bad things. Sacrificing thousands to save millions for example. It would only be a bad thing turned out good if some criminal is experimenting on thousands of people for selfish reasons and then someone finds a way to use the results to save millions. That's the thing with randomness. In the real world it not like good actions lead to good results and bad actions lead to bad results. At least not necessarily. The most evil man may accidently trigger events that eventually save the world. But you can't foresee it. I mean if you know that it will happen, ok. But just letting everyone do what they want for the chance that something good may come even of bad things is a bit too optimistic for me. Thing with TIM is, nobody knows at the end of ME2 if he is going to be a help or problem in the war with Reapers. I'd only take him as an ally if I had something that makes sure that he can't cheat me at some point. Like a bomb in his head that I can trigger at any time or something.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 janvier 2012 - 08:01 .

[angry_peon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, I'll give you one example from the script...

Recall that alliance base on the moon with the rogue AI? That rouge AI was EDI 1.0. Cerberus did it.

I like the fact that they want to make ends meet. Especially those small things from subquests, fills the world with life.

And yes, you can't go 5 sentaces wihotu someone reminding you how evil Cerberus is. I've never seen something so ham-fisted in my life.

For that you can blame certain people who didn't understand more subtle hints. 

[BoboIII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...
What have they changed to be retroactivally Cerberus' fault?

Well, I'll give you one example from the script...

Recall that alliance base on the moon with the rogue AI? That rouge AI was EDI 1.0. Cerberus did it.

And yes, you can't go 5 sentaces wihotu someone reminding you how evil Cerberus is. I've never seen something so ham-fisted in my life.

Noober is more subtle!

Actually, history is full of examples like that. Something happens, people draw first conclusions and say "That's how it happened". Later investigation reveals that was more to that and then real truth is revealed. And for some things we never find out real truth.

If EDI 1.0 is retcon or not, depends on how is executed in ME3. If, let's say Anderson, says 'Remember that rogue VI on the moon? It turned out it was actualy Cerberus attempt to create first AI.', then it's not a retcon. If he just slaps you with 'Remember that Cerberus attempt to make first AI?', then it's a retcon.

Cerberus being evil or not depends entierly on point of view, on perspective of what is evil and what is good. I don't consider them evil. While i think that at least some of members most likely are, there is probably more good then evil. At least there are good intentions, if nothing else.

[Dave of Canada]

*removed*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:17 .

[Tragoudistros]

MisterJB wrote...

LordJeyl wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

- Pushing the Alliance to build the Normandy to learn turian technology.

You do realize that this was done as an act of understanding Turian technology so that mankind would eventually dominate the galaxy. 

Cerberus isn't some group that does good deeds every now and than because they're generous. They're doing it to achieve their own goals. TIM specifically stated that Cerberus' goal is securing humanity's dominance of the galaxy, not being a part of the galaxy or joining the council to coexist with the other species, but to be in charge.

Human dominance is not a bad thing.
During ME1, Asari, Salarians and Turians dominated the galaxy. They passed the laws, judged the "lesser races", they even had their own Cerberus, it's called the Spectres. However, there is no slavery, besides the drell, or genocides, except the Krogan and the Rachni...you know what, the Council really sucks.

However, many people seem to defend this system. Then why stand against a future more favorable to humans? Who says that, just because humans are in power, the other species will suddenly be destroyed or enslaved?

I think MisterJB makes great arguments here. The council is not perfect, and it cannot truly be relied upon. There is a lot of danger in the galaxy. It is naive to completely trust the the other species because they will never trust us. Humans don't trust eachother and we are indirect competition to one another. We can breed with one another, and thus continue our species. That is not the case with any other species. (Even the Asari would replace us, since they only give birth to Asari).
Maybe Cerebus goes too far (well even I think they cross a few lines) but too far in the other direction means we go extinct...

mrsph wrote...

Hey, guys. Remember how in the
background humanity reached an absurd position of power in only thirty
some years? Those aliens are totally in our way and stuff.

The Council is certainly not made up of fools. They know how to keep peace and protect their own interets. That takese precedence over absolute morality. Remember, it took the Turian centuries to get (don't remember exact number). Why would they have let them in? Turians have the largest military fleet. Turning them down means that you have angered the largest military fleet. Salarians, why were they admitted? They have incredible inteligence (military/political/technological not counting their impressive biological inteligence). They created the genophage, imagine what precautions they have taken against all of the other species. Why would they not? Remember the Salarian mentality "do not begin a war, unless you already know you can win it". They also don't believe in 'declaring war'. They would prove to be dangerous enemies. The Asari got their first, and it is pretty darn obvious that they are rather tough, and able to maintain their position in the council.

Back to humans; we (sounds funny, when referecing a video game lol) were given unprecedented rights, because we withstood the impressive (albeit not full) might of the Turians, unaided. We colonize at a rate much more quickly than the other species have. If they did not make concessions, we would have been a dangerous enemy. The Krogan are as tough as the Asari, (physically and lifespan-wise) and colonize faster than humans, but the Salarian neutralized them. If the Krogan had instincts like the other coucil races, they would easily have made their way into the council.

Equality is great but Cerebus provides us protection from truly dangerous species. The Salarians are the threat I would be most worried about. Intelligence is one of our greatest strong points, and they beat us, hands down. Biological weaponry can make a species extinct. Cerebus could make us a target, yes but every advance we make causes us to be a target anyways. We can never recover from extinction. Idealism poses too great a risk.
Hug with your right hand and keep a dagger in your left? Too on the fence, for my tastes.
I prefer to hug with both arms/hands<3, but have a toxic Borgia ring on, at all times. Fully embrace our future, but I will slaughter you, if you cross us.

Modifié par Tragoudistros, 31 janvier 2012 - 08:39 .

[BoboIII]

Dave of Canada wrote...

BoboIII wrote...

If EDI 1.0 is retcon or not, depends on how is executed in ME3. If, let's say Anderson, says 'Remember that rogue VI on the moon? It turned out it was actualy Cerberus attempt to create first AI.', then it's not a retcon. If he just slaps you with 'Remember that Cerberus attempt to make first AI?', then it's a retcon.

Mass Effect 1.

Hackett: A VI has gone crazy and killed everybody on Luna.
Shepard: You mean AI, right?
Hackett: *whispers* That's illegal! Shut up!
Shepard: Ok, I'll go stop it, you morally ambiguous Alliance, you.
AI: [Binary for "HELP ME" before you shut it down]

Mass Effect 2.

Edi: Hi.
Shepard: Get that thing off my ship!
Edi: Did I offend?
Miranda: Na, he's just had bad experiences with AI like the one on Luna.
Edi: Oh, then your fear is understandable but I'm pretty cool.

Mass Effect 3.
Edi: I found some files when looking at TIM's computer. I'm the Luna AI who was actually being worked on by Cerberus all along, I knew Cerberus was incompetent but their incompetence made me kill all the people on Luna. I want The Illusive Man dead, what's that emotion?
Shepard: Hatred, EDI.
Edi: I hate Cerberus and the Illusive Man.

Is this a spoiler? If so, please no more spoilers

Well, since it's here, I was affraid of something like that... Makes me wonder how the hell Cerberus worked freely in the Alliance base... Maybe through double agents or something, who knows... But stil not sure if it can be considered as retcon. If this is all there is, chances of this being retcon significaly increases, indeed.

[KotorEffect3]

.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:37 .

[Iakus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrex would like to have a word with you.

I recall him talking about mountains of dead featuses..unelss Bio retconned that. But then again, Bio has no clue as to how biology works, given Morodins technobbble about humans genetics.

I'm fully willing to admit that Bioware likes its retcons.  A lot.

But while they may have altered the genophage to make it a bit more palatable to players (maybe) they largely ignored the things Cerberus was guilty of,  Leaving people to have to fill in the blanks themselves as to why their heinous methods are necessary.

I don't believe anyone here claimed TIM was a "nice guy". He can't really afford to be one.
but we dont' really know about any lines.
Furthermore, conditions change the lines. Things you may not be willing to do in situation  A because something you would in situation B.

Mordin has lines he won't cross.  We've seen that.

We have not seen any lines The Illusive Man is unwilling to cross.  At best we've seen plausible deniability.  If he's to be portrayed as morally gray we should be told or uncover for ourselves reasons why someone could see such an action as necessary.

Mordin provided it with the genophage.  You may agree with his reasoning, you may not.  But he at least has reasoning.

Aside from Overlord, we were given no reasons for the majority of the projects we've uncovered.

[Iakus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

iakus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, we don't. We really don't.

Actually, we do.  We see the evidence in both games.  Mordin told that experimenting on sentient beings "species with members capable of calculus) is one rule he never broke.  Cerberus, and TIM have done so numerous times.

THAT rule. What about other rules? How do you know Cerberus has no rules?

There's not a whole lot more rules bigger than "No experimenting on sentients"  If Cerberus is willing to break that one on a regular basis

And how does Morodin not crossing that line make it any better? If you excuse me, but experimenting on a dozen sentients is less wrong that killing billions.
Say whatever you want, but Cerberus can't come even close to the death toll the Council perpertated.

Give Cerberus time, they've only been around for, what 25 years?  And they dont have access to species-specific sterility plagues (yet)

A hypothetical scenario. Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Because anyone can  justify anything by saying "It was the only way" 

[Someone With Mass]

Such vague details, and everyone immediately starts throwing around spoilers and the word "retcon" everywhere. Pretty damn pathetic.

Here's an interesting thought:

What if Cerberus simply used their contacts within the Alliance to gather the information that was recorded at the Luna base and to influence the project itself?

No, wait. That would require a second thought.

Let's keep shouting "retcon" in a very sad attempt to make everything BioWare does look bad, just because they were simply tired of making sure that the Mass Effect universe was revolving around Cerberus all the time.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

You clearly did not follow the same Internet and discuss with the same people off and online as I did when situations such as the shooting on Norway, or the...[/quote]

What makes your experience more valid than mine? I bet you didn't talk to the same people I did. [/quote]
In that case, yours, on this topic is either non-existant, or fraudulent. 

Supranational empathy has been noted during all major natural or otherwise, disasters, in recent times. That is certainly not debatable, but internet forums do, in fact, provide pretty good evidence of this, not only because of the recorded comments that can be reviewed, but due to the charities they often organize also.

No matter how hard you try, you can't make that kind of stuff go away.


[quote]Tribalism hasn't gone anywhere, Phaedon, and it won't go anywhere. People still form tribes. Their country, their political affiliation, their state, their city, their neighborhood, their block, their friends, their family, their sports team, the car they drive, their religion, ect...[/quote]
It's good that you bring up "Tribalism".

Tribalism, and by tribalism I mean the proper use of the term, has actually almost ceased around the world, with the last tribes that remain to be generally maintaining their structure. You won't hear about new tribes being formed all of a sudden. Tribes are dead.

The fact that study of tribalism is commonly associated to anthropology and the very early stages of human history, is solid proof, in and of itself, that we have moved away from small communities, into larger and larger ones. After tribalism, comes ethnogenesis, after all. And then, sociology. "How does the revolution of x nation affect y nation?"




[quote]The point is, even with empathy tribalism doesn't go anywhere.[/quote]
Tribes are dead. Clans are dead. City States are dead. Nations? They certainly aren't, though they are much less relevant than they were a century ago. That is certainly not up to debate.

While affection may not be spread evenly, there is no argument against the fact that the longer the sound of the human voice can go, the larger the human unions will be. It has to be noted, of course, that the suggestion that the main reason for that is resources, is ridiculous.

Small tribes have thrived, not moving from their ancestral homes, for thousands, upon thousands of years. Resources are much smaller a problem than you think. We have passed from the era of Nomadic life to Irrigation and permanent housing a lot lot lot lot lot time ago. Yes, larger unions ensure survival, but not due to the resources, but rather the manpower.

Take a look at the Austro-Hungarian empire. Sure, the connections between the various populations were loose, but who cares? They got the best resources! Well, Bohemia did. Even though they were under foreign rule for centuries.

[quote]Empathy can motivate you to hate without any trouble. After all, to empathize is to imagine what another is thinking and to feel what they feel. That means you can just as easily feel their rage, suffering, or their greed.[/quote]
Empathy certainly can't make you feel someone's greed. You are just putting a non-feeling there to make it sound bad. 


"
Empathy can motivate you to hate without any trouble "
Empathy is not the instinct that does that.


[quote][quote]Phaedon wrote...

At the times when human population was at its lowest, we were divided,[/quote]

We are still divided and always will be so long as we remain human.[/quote]
Nice of you to attempt to remove all context out of this quote:
"At the times when human population was at its lowest, we were divided, wheras, when the opposite occured, the larger the unions were. To take a step back in collective empathy and in the creation of supranational unions, is one step back in evolution (scratch that, several), and therefore, survival."

"My group's needs before yours" is a deadly approach. Which further proves that your BS about supporting survivalism is well, BS.

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

I'll gladly return tomorrow to note your amusing attempts at proving that humans are not social animals, or that "we were better off as tribes".

[/quote]
I never said or implied this.
[/quote]
You directly do so. 

The suggestion that humans, although progressively empathetic, have to always be divided is a direct contradiction to the fact that we are soft-wired to merge with one another.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Such vague details, and everyone immediately starts throwing around spoilers and the word "retcon" everywhere. Pretty damn pathetic.

I was simply continuing the trend which the thread was going down, though I see you haven't changed in the weeks I've been away. Still throwing around the word "pathetic", I see.

Here's an interesting thought:

What if Cerberus simply used their contacts within the Alliance to gather the information that was recorded at the Luna base and to influence the project itself?

No, wait. That would require a second thought.

Then... that makes... Cerberus still responsible?

Let's keep shouting "retcon" in a very sad attempt to make everything BioWare does look bad

And let's keep calling people pathetic when they don't like everything they do!

just because they were simply tired of making sure that the Mass Effect universe was revolving around Cerberus all the time.

Making ME1 missions and such retroactively attributed to Cerberus and pretty much making them the main antagonist in ME3 is totally stopping the universe from revolving around them.

[Labrev]

LOL @ posting spoilers knowing people are trying to avoid it and it being against site rules.


Shows you what kind of people you're dealing with.

[Dave of Canada]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

LOL @ posting spoilers knowing people are trying to avoid it and it being against site rules.


Shows you what kind of people you're dealing with.

Thank you for your kind and insightful post, sir.

[Someone With Mass]

Yes, I can call people pathetic and sad losers when they're hanging around on a forum and talk smack about a game they have said they have no interest in. Just because one faction which moral alignment was pretty damn clear from the start turned out to not go as they wanted.

Oh, boo-hoo. Shepard can't defend Cerberus in the game anymore and make him/herself look stupid in the process.

By the way, Cerberus is doing pretty much what they have always done, so there's no surprise that they passed a certain point where they made enemies of certain people. Because that "no matter the cost" excuse apparently got old.

[Labrev]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

LOL @ posting spoilers knowing people are trying to avoid it and it being against site rules.


Shows you what kind of people you're dealing with.

Thank you for your kind and insightful post, sir.

Kindness and insight were not my intent, but illumination.

You posted spoilers being either careless or inconsiderate. Doesn't matter, own up to your actions when you hear it from others, it was your own doing.

Hmm, owning up to actions/consequence... sound familiar?

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:25 .

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yes, I can call people pathetic and sad losers when they're hanging around on a forum and talk smack about a game they have said they have no interest in.

I know your reasoning well by now, dear. You don't ever stop.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

You posted spoilers being either careless or inconsiderate. Doesn't matter, own up to your actions when you hear it from others, it was your own doing.

Your "LOL" has clearly illuminated me of my ignorance, thank you.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:31 .

[BoboIII]

Saphra Deden wrote...

BoboIII wrote...

Is this a spoiler? If so, please no more spoilers

Well, since it's here, I was affraid of something like that... Makes me wonder how the hell Cerberus worked freely in the Alliance base... Maybe through double agents or something, who knows... But stil not sure if it can be considered as retcon. If this is all there is, chances of this being retcon significaly increases, indeed.

It is the very definition of a retcon. A previously established fact has been changed.

THAT IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF A RETCON

I know what retcon is. If that particular example is retcon depends how is executed in ME3 in it's entirety. On how Cerberus implication is explained. For example explanation could be that Cerberus had a spy/spies on Luna station uploading/modifing data / kick starting AI. It may sound silly, i mean why would they do that there and not in their own facility is beyond me. But it would be explanation and it wouldn't be retcon. You could call it, i don't know, stupid writing or whatever

On other hand EDI saying that she killed personel on Luna is a bit strange. I mean, I destroyed that damn AI on Luna. It couldn't be EDI that did it. Is it possible that EDI itself was on Luna base, transfered/copied somewhere else and forgot about all? I honestly don't know. Not really sure how AI works...

[KotorEffect3]

Ugh I am just going to start avoiding this thread I think the pro-cerberus crowd will just start posting spoilers on purpose because many of them also happen to be haters as well as being cerberus drones and since bioware didn't give them the option kiss TIM's ass in ME 3 they want to ruin it for everybody else.

[Zatou]

[Spoilersons]

Whatever you do, do not side with Cerberus. They are indoctrinated.

[Dave of Canada]

How many names have I been called in the past hour? Just want to keep track, I'm back for a few hours and this might be a new record. My previous posts being completely ignored in favor of insults.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:44 .

[Labrev]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your "LOL" has clearly illuminated me of my ignorance, thank you.

Oh noez, I laughed at you! Newsflash - people don't always tell you things politely. Now be a man and admit your mistake.

(Parents, this is why you have to beat your kids! )