1482 réponses à ce sujet

[Calibration Master]

jreezy wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

Give me one example where Cerberus triest to inflict fear on the general public in order to achieve their goals.

wait, so it needs to be on the general public now?

He keeps flipping his definition to bolster his argument

No, I always argued that terrorism is an act of inflicting fear on the general public. Maybe I wasn't clear about that in the beginning, but now I am.

Modifié par Calibration Master, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:16 .

[SnakeStrike8]

MisterJB wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

A group that dosnt look out for people at the cost of others? I suppose thats fine, although I really dont think its needed. The problem is that cerberus is nothing like that.

Cerberus could be re-modelled to be more like the STG after TIM is killed/kicked out of power. I kinda like the idea.

at least someone who understands my point...

But, if you really think about it, what exactly is the difference between the STG now and Cerberus besides, lack of acountability?

The STG fulfils the orders of the salarian government. If that government orders the STG to assist their human allies, the STG will do that. Cerberus (or specifically, TIM) takes no orders from anyone, and they do whatever they feel like to advance human interests. It goes without saying that their definition of human interests might not match the Alliance's definition of human interests. Key difference!

[crimzontearz]

Calibration Master wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...
IDK. Looking at the definition of Terrorism, it seems like they fall under that category.

Yeah the stuff in my post was from the definition of Terrorism

That's not "the definition".  There really is no one definition of terrorism, which is a big part of why we continually have these arguments about Cerberus.  Those are some characteristics that one researcher set forth as common to terrorist organizations.

This is true. But what ALL terrorist organisations have in common, is that their main tactic is to inflict fear.

Cerberus' main tactic is not to inflict fear, thus they aren't terrorists.

just because they do not make threats as conspicuous as those made by Osama that does not mean that Fear is not one of their tactics

Give me one example where Cerberus triest to inflict fear on the general public in order to achieve their goals.

you do not consider the thought of an organization like Cerberus to have an arm I of cloned Rachni, deranged superbiotics and access to super advanced possibly mind bending Reapertech AND reaper constructs to be fear inducing for other races? If it was known that Osama had, de facto, the power to launch nuclear strikes would that not cause fear? Would they not use it as a fear inducing tool so not to have other races be in their way? Just because the threat is implicit that does not mean it is not there

[MisterJB]

Kid Buu wrote...
Are you serious?

Only half serious. But what does Cerberus do that the STG doesn't? Experiment on unwilling subjects? Somehow, I don't think that Yahg in the leaked beta was a guest at Sur'Kesh.

[Skullheart]

ABCoLD wrote...

So guys. If we're finally getting to the
point of saying "The point of this argument isn't whether they're
terrorist or not..." could we please simply either say that they're good
or evil?

I don't want rationalization, I don't want
justification, I want your opinion on if they're a good or an evil
organization.

They are evil because BW wanted some humanoids to be shooted in the game.

If Cerberus would have stayed loyal to its ideals we could have counted with them against the reapers and we only have to deal against husks and the reapers.

Modifié par Skullheart, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:20 .

[Calibration Master]

Anyway, this discussion about terrorism is actually quite pointless, since there is no once single universally accepted official definition of 'terrorism'.

Everyone uses terrorism in a different way and everyone is eager to label organisations with the terrorist-label, even when the organisation does not even use terror as their main tactic.

Whatever, this is a waste of time.

[Oddlyotter]

I skipped several pages so I don't know if it was mentioned BUT,

They kidnapped a rear admiral of the alliance navy once he started poking around. Kidnapped him and then tortured and killed him.

Poor admiral Kohaku, he was just worried about his team

Modifié par Oddlyotter, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:19 .

[Welsh Inferno]

MisterJB wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...
Are you serious?

Only half serious. But what does Cerberus do that the STG doesn't? Experiment on unwilling subjects? Somehow, I don't think that Yahg in the leaked beta was a guest at Sur'Kesh.

Its just as likely Cerberus captured some at some point and let it loose there.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Finally, some people who actually get what terrorism means.

On my BSN, even. I couldn't be more proud of you guys.

[MisterJB]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...
The STG fulfils the orders of the salarian government. If that government orders the STG to assist their human allies, the STG will do that.

And Cerberus exist solely to assist humans.

Cerberus (or specifically, TIM) takes no orders from anyone, and they do whatever they feel like to advance human interests. It goes without saying that their definition of human interests might not match the Alliance's definition of human interests. Key difference!

But at least they're human interests. I don't like TIM but what makes you think that the salarian government cares about humans or their interests?

[Chuvvy]

I don't like that Cerberus is now more or less team rocket, running around the galaxy yelling "NOT SO FAST SHEPARD!" but that's what they are.

Modifié par Slidell505, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:21 .

[MisterJB]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Its just as likely Cerberus captured some at some point and let it loose there.

No.

[ABCoLD]

Alright, this is pointless back-biting now. Peace out.

[Aimi]

MisterJB wrote...

Not is is not. The only reason humanity is on the Verge is because that's where the Council wanted us to colonize in an attempt to drive the batarians out and civilize that part of space. Well fine, no one expected this would be easy but, by the time ME1 happens, that was officially Council Space, humans are supposed to be alies. Now, when a rogue species attacks us, I believe we could at least ask assistance from our "allies". Otherwise, what was the point of signing a treaty that limitates the rights for humans to defend themselves? 
Instead, the Council uses the excuse of the Terminus System and yes, that is what it is, an excuse. Because when the quarians tried to settle on the world of Ekuna, which just happens to be inside the Terminus systems, the Council threatened to bomb them if they did not give the planet to the Elcor.
So, back then, they were willing to send an warship into the Terminus but, when humans ask, they can't even send a fleet to the borders of their own space? What were they planning? Use the Geth to weaken the humans who were becoming far too strong?

The human-batarian war wasn't started by the Council at all. The Alliance started colonizing the Verge in the 2160s, the batarians demanded that the Council stop them, and the Council refused. There is no evidence for any view that the Council pushed humanity into colonizing the Verge, and nobody in either game frames the question that way.

As for the "excuse" of the Terminus Systems, it really isn't. Setting aside the fact that Ekuna was colonized eighty years before gamestart - and thus could have been in a period of relatively good relations between Citadel Space and the Terminus, decreasing the danger of war if a fleet intervened (the difference between the USSR mounting an intervention in Hungary in 1956 and mounting a hypothetical one in 1991 comes to mind) - it's not clear that Ekuna was, in fact, considered to be part of Terminus space. It's quite clear that many of the systems you can visit in ME2 are not in the Terminus Systems (Illium, for instance, is explicitly stated to be as much a part of the Asari Republics as Noveria is a part of the Alliance), and Ekuna is never stated to have been there in the first place. It's simply inference, which may or may not be correct; you can't really assume anything based on that. Perhaps it was discovered by Citadel explorers but remained uncolonized until the quarians started squatting. We have no way of knowing.

Proposing that the Council did, in fact, want the geth to succeed is a more than a little ridiculous and hyperbolic. Again, the Council didn't just send Shepard into the Traverse. They dispatched part of an STG regiment, and they seem to have been willing to send a fleet to back the STG up. Of course, they weren't doing that solely out of the goodness of their hearts; their own interests were obviously threatened, because of Saren's krogan cloning technique. But politics is the art of getting groups with divergent interests to work towards the same goals. And given their earlier chariness about sending a fleet into the Traverse, it seems that the Council was willing to risk war over Virmire. That's...pretty solid of them.

MisterJB wrote...

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. They gave Shepard a title that, officially, meant that he has to answer to them but didn't mean a thing in the Terminus Systems. They didn't do anything.

Show of good faith. Besides, a benevolent neutrality is far, far better than opposition, and the Council had plenty of grounds for opposing Shepard.

[Calibration Master]

crimzontearz wrote...

you do not consider the thought of an organization like Cerberus to have an arm I of cloned Rachni, deranged superbiotics and access to super advanced possibly mind bending Reapertech AND reaper constructs to be fear inducing for other races? If it was known that Osama had, de facto, the power to launch nuclear strikes would that not cause fear? Would they not use it as a fear inducing tool so not to have other races be in their way? Just because the threat is implicit that does not mean it is not there

So you honestly believe Cerberus wanted to have expendable rachni-shock-troopers to inflict fear? You honestly believe Cerberus wanted to create human biotics to inflict fear? Do you honestly believe Cerberus wanted to have reaper tech to inflict fear? 

You're kidding yourself. Cerberus doesn't want to inflict fear. If they did, they would have made it publicly known that they now have reaper tech at their disposal.

If Cerberus was a terrorist organisation, they would have launched a video in the extranet saying: "How are you gentlement? All your Collector base are belong to us! You are on your way to destruction. You have no chance to survive make your time. Hahahahahaha."

[Calibration Master]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Finally, some people who actually get what terrorism means.

On my BSN, even. I couldn't be more proud of you guys.

Thank you sir Kaiser. 

[crimzontearz]

Calibration Master wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
you do not consider the thought of an organization like Cerberus to have an arm I of cloned Rachni, deranged superbiotics and access to super advanced possibly mind bending Reapertech AND reaper constructs to be fear inducing for other races? If it was known that Osama had, de facto, the power to launch nuclear strikes would that not cause fear? Would they not use it as a fear inducing tool so not to have other races be in their way? Just because the threat is implicit that does not mean it is not there

So you honestly believe Cerberus wanted to have expendable rachni-shock-troopers to inflict fear? You honestly believe Cerberus wanted to create human biotics to inflict fear? Do you honestly believe Cerberus wanted to have reaper tech to inflict fear? 

You're kidding yourself. Cerberus doesn't want to inflict fear. If they did, they would have made it publicly known that they now have reaper tech at their disposal.

If Cerberus was a terrorist organisation, they would have launched a video in the extranet saying: "How are you gentlement? All your Collector base are belong to us! You are on your way to destruction. You have no chance to survive make your time. Hahahahahaha."

no, their intent was to use them ONCE. once the news spreads so does fear hence why terrorism acts are NOT announced but someone with a manifesto (btw TIM has one) claims responsibility afterward. So far Cerberus has not been able to use any of its weapons for one reason or the other until Invasion of course

[SnakeStrike8]

MisterJB wrote...

Cerberus (or specifically, TIM) takes no orders from anyone, and they do whatever they feel like to advance human interests. It goes without saying that their definition of human interests might not match the Alliance's definition of human interests. Key difference!

But at least they're human interests. I don't like TIM but what makes you think that the salarian government cares about humans or their interests?

That's not the point. Whether or not the salarian government cares about the Alliance is irrelevant. How much the Allaince cares about them is also irrelevant. What we can be sure of is that the STG will never instigate a war with the Alliance unless their government tells them to do so. If the Alliance and salarians are on good terms with each other, then there's no risk of it happening. The same cannot be said for Cerberus. If TIM decides that it is in human interests to provoke or instigate a war with the salarians, then he'll order his minions to do it and it might be a war that the Alliance is unwilling or unprepared to prosecute. We cannot know that, because TIM knows no master. He follows his own rules, and those rules may not be the Alliance's rules.
Since you clarified your stance on the matter, let me clarify mine: As evil as Cerberus is, it isn't any more or less evil than any other galaxy-spanning faction, like the Blue Suns or Eclipse. I just dislike TIM's assumption that he knows whats best for humankind, and everyone else can go sleep with an asari. It's an unhealthy attitude at best, and a dangerous one at worst when one considers that Cerberus has the resources to change the way humans are percieved by the rest of the galaxy.

Modifié par SnakeStrike8, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:36 .

[Welsh Inferno]

MisterJB wrote...

No.
-snip-

Ah yeah, Completely forgot about that part. 

Signal that I should have gone to bed hours ago... 

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:40 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Slidell505 wrote...

I don't like that Cerberus is now more or less team rocket, running around the galaxy yelling "NOT SO FAST SHEPARD!" but that's what they are.

Agreed, although the Sith might be a better comparison by the time of ME3. This being a Bioware game, however, there should also have been an option to join the regional galaxy-wide villainous team, though. So much for player agency, though.

Calibration Master wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Finally, some people who actually get what terrorism means.

On my BSN, even. I couldn't be more proud of you guys.

Thank you sir Kaiser.

As you were, soldier.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:38 .

[Blacklash93]

Volus Warlord wrote...

All I've to say is that if you do not strive to be above and beyond.. prepare to be cast aside.

You should strive to be above and beyond to help lift and guide others to your level of prosperity as much as possible. Not to cast others aside as weak, inferior, and as nothing but tools.

At that point you've lost your humanity.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:47 .

[Calibration Master]

crimzontearz wrote...

Calibration Master wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
you do not consider the thought of an organization like Cerberus to have an arm I of cloned Rachni, deranged superbiotics and access to super advanced possibly mind bending Reapertech AND reaper constructs to be fear inducing for other races? If it was known that Osama had, de facto, the power to launch nuclear strikes would that not cause fear? Would they not use it as a fear inducing tool so not to have other races be in their way? Just because the threat is implicit that does not mean it is not there

So you honestly believe Cerberus wanted to have expendable rachni-shock-troopers to inflict fear? You honestly believe Cerberus wanted to create human biotics to inflict fear? Do you honestly believe Cerberus wanted to have reaper tech to inflict fear? 

You're kidding yourself. Cerberus doesn't want to inflict fear. If they did, they would have made it publicly known that they now have reaper tech at their disposal.

If Cerberus was a terrorist organisation, they would have launched a video in the extranet saying: "How are you gentlement? All your Collector base are belong to us! You are on your way to destruction. You have no chance to survive make your time. Hahahahahaha."

no, their intent was to use them ONCE. once the news spreads so does fear hence why terrorism acts are NOT announced but someone with a manifesto (btw TIM has one) claims responsibility afterward. So far Cerberus has not been able to use any of its weapons for one reason or the other until Invasion of course

Assuming Cerberus even wanted to use these weapons to inflict fear and trror in the first place.  I find it very hard to believe.

Cerberus is not the nicest organisation I've ever seen and they sure have a lot of skeletons in their closet, but to assume they eventually plan to inflict terror and claim responsibility for the terrorist act later is something I find very far-fetched.

More likely, Cerberus simply tried to give humanity an edge over the other races, so their ultimate goal (human domination) comes a bit closer.

Cerberus tried to control the rachni to use them as shock-troopers. This would give the human militairy an edge over the other races.
Cerberus created human biotics to give humanity a chance against the other biotic races.
With Jack (Subject Zero) and Gillian Grayson, Cerberus tried to push the biotic capablities of a human to it's maximum potential, to give humanity an edge over the other biotic races.

Everything Cerberus does, is to give humanity more power and an edge against the rest of the galaxy.


I'm not a big fan of Cerberus, but I'm willing to jump on the "Cerberus = terrorist lololol"-bandwagon either.

Modifié par Calibration Master, 23 janvier 2012 - 03:48 .

[TheCreeper]

People need to stop comparing Cerberus to STG and Spectres, they have government oversight and backing, Cerberus has the Illusive man, and no matter how big the Illusive man's ego is, he is not humanities government.

[Dean_the_Young]

crimzontearz wrote...

you do not consider the thought of an organization like Cerberus to have an arm I of cloned Rachni, deranged superbiotics and access to super advanced possibly mind bending Reapertech AND reaper constructs to be fear inducing for other races?

That is neither the primary goal or purpose of the operations, so no. Among other things, none of those were ever intended to be public.

'Something to be concerned about' is not the same thing as 'mass terror as a matter of policy.'

If it was known that Osama had, de facto, the power to launch nuclear strikes would that not cause fear?

Yes. But it would not be terrorism in and of itself.

Now, if Osama made public threats of nuclear destruction unless demands were met, that would be terrorism.

Would they not use it as a fear inducing tool so not to have other races be in their way?

Cerberus?

Well, Cerberus does have nukes, and hasn't been doing nuclear terrorism, so no. They haven't.

Just because the threat is implicit that does not mean it is not there

And that is something distinct from terrorism.