185 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Barquiel wrote...

Shepard could just order c-sec to arrest every cerberus member aboard the Normandy when the ship arrives on the Citadel for the first time in the game. Nobody forced Shep to work for cerberus.

Indeed and then in ME3 Shep could get curbstomped by the Reapers because not only would he not have a countermeasure to the seeker swarms but the Reapers would have most of the material for the HR and could just nuke the s*** out of Earth.

Critical Mission Failure! 

[Wulfram]

Ryzaki wrote...


Indeed and then in ME3 Shep could get curbstomped by the Reapers because not only would he not have a countermeasure to the seeker swarms but the Reapers would have most of the material for the HR and could just nuke the s*** out of Earth.

Critical Mission Failure! 

Mordin isn't a member of Cerberus, so there's no reason to think that turning in Cerberus would effect your ability to make contermeasures for the seeker swarms.  And plonking a couple of cruisers at the Omega relay would have stopped the Collectors, no probs.

[Barquiel]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Shepard could just order c-sec to arrest every cerberus member aboard the Normandy when the ship arrives on the Citadel for the first time in the game. Nobody forced Shep to work for cerberus.

And in the process betray his squadmembers?  Oh my, I had no idea you would imagine Shepard as such a ruthless character.

Miranda and Jacob? cerberus operatives...

I wouldn't do it, but Liara has nothing to do with it

[Ryzaki]

Wulfram wrote...
Mordin isn't a member of Cerberus, so there's no reason to think that turning in Cerberus would effect your ability to make contermeasures for the seeker swarms.  And plonking a couple of cruisers at the Omega relay would have stopped the Collectors, no probs.

A. This is assuming Shep goes STRAIGHT to Bailey. Mordin was never picked up, The data was never gotten from Veetor (or Shep gave it to Cerberus/Cerberus took it and he doesn't have it on him). So yeah. There's plenty of reason to think turning in Cerberus would affect your ability to fight the collectors.

- No Cerberus, no data from Veetor (only reason Shep knows about FP is TIMs data). Which also means Shep doesn't even know it's the Collectors doing it and the Omega 4 relay would probably be ignored.

- No Cerberus, no seeker swarm countermeasure (Mordin makes it true enough but he also has state of the art lab and EDI helping him. He says something like AI invaluable or some such I believe not to mention Shep only knows about Mordin because of TIM). Something that can instantly paralyze any human (including Shepard) is an instant win button for the Reapers. Plus they don't even know about the seekers without Veetor's data.

- No Cerberus, no reason for the Collectors to hit Horizon and weakening of the main CS (TIM lured them there) not to mention since Veetor's data was collected they don't even know about the collectors. And even if the Collectors do hit without TIMs rumors there's no reason for the defense towers and the VS to be at that precise location.

- No Cerberus, no IFF to hit the Collector Homeworld (Cerberus had the IFF). And they still don't know who the hell they're trying to attack.

And if Shep waits until after Horizon he/she would have enough sense to realize that nothing will get done unless he/she continues working with Cerberus. Mordin doesn't create said countermeasure until near then.

And parking those cruisers at the Omega relay would've resulted in war. Something that the council was adamant about avoiding. So no that wouldn't have happened. The council would've continued going "lalalala" until the Reapers were on their doorstep.

Critical Mission Failure would've been the result of Shep refusing to work with Cerberus in ME2.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:29 .

[PMC65]

BlueMagitek wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Well, actually no ... Liara will tell you what she did on Illium even if you do squat for her. She also does not make you join Cerberus. Shepard once awakened could have taken his toys except BIOWARE not Liara kept you there.

Also, the airlock choice in ME1 would have meant no ME2 for those Shepards after you were spaced. No bueno.

She sent Shepard's body to Cerberus on the off chance that they'd ressurect him.  Cerberus could have installed a control chip and Liara wouldn't have been able to do anything.  As for Shepard working with Cerberus; he does so because they're the only ones doing *anything* to stop the Collectors, and I highly doubt he could take control of the ship from all Cerberus personnel aboard until after the SM.

And I'm fairly certain that you do need to do at least the hacking mission before Liara says any more.

Cerberus could have done a lot of things and Liara took a huge chance with giving them Shepard's body, romanced or not. I 100% agree that it was a huge risk and that any and all Shepards can have resentment, anger, etc with that move. No debate there.

But claiming that Liara made Shepard work with Cerberus is not true. That was Shepard's choice ... or Bioware if you want to get technical. As to why Shepard worked with Cerberus is up to each player to RP the motivation and making it Liara holding a gun over him/her is a stretch. But I guess if you want to go that route, your $$$ ... your game!

It's been a awhile since I played ME2 so you might be right ... but you certainly do not have to help her out with the Shadow Broker to get her to tell you. I always wondered why Bioware did not have an option where Shepard could ask Miranda or Jacob how they got him but such is the game. I think it might have been interesting to have had Miranda tell Shepard.

But since I like all three characters and their romances I'm not in the "my boyfriend is better than your boyfriend" debate. They all have their pros and cons ...

[Skullheart]

PMC65 wrote...

Also, the airlock choice in ME1 would have meant no ME2 for those Shepards after you were spaced. No bueno.

Cerberus could have recovered Shepard's body without Liara. Feron was their agent, not Liara.  They could have contacted any other of Shepard friends or even use their own operatives to recover Shepard.

[BlueMagitek]

Barquiel wrote...

Miranda and Jacob? cerberus operatives...

I wouldn't do it, but Liara has nothing to do with it

The entire crew and the squadmates that you've collected.  I'm sure Jack & Kasumi (criminals) would be happy to be turned over to C-Sec.  Garrus will be more than happy to be, you know, back to the place he despised and not doing anything of value.  Zaeed won't be paid, Grunt is betrayed at the decision, Legion is almost certainly killed...

Wulfram wrote...

Mordin isn't a member of Cerberus, so
there's no reason to think that turning in Cerberus would effect your
ability to make contermeasures for the seeker swarms.  And plonking a
couple of cruisers at the Omega relay would have stopped the Collectors,
no probs.

Actually, from my understanding, if
you do the Arrival DLC prior to the SM, Hackett says something about the
Collector ship wrecking the Alliance navy.

And what Ryz said.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Love and obsession are not the same thing. I personally find Liara's creepiness endearing (in a disturbing sort of way), but romance?

Nope.avi.

Edit: How would "a few" cruisers "handle" the Collector ships (there are multiple)? The Normandy was the most advanced in the fleet, and it was still scrap metal in minutes. The only reason it even lasted so long is because of Joker's skill as a helmsman.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:20 .

[Barquiel]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Miranda and Jacob? cerberus operatives...

I wouldn't do it, but Liara has nothing to do with it

The entire crew and the squadmates that you've collected.  I'm sure Jack & Kasumi (criminals) would be happy to be turned over to C-Sec.  Garrus will be more than happy to be, you know, back to the place he despised and not doing anything of value.  Zaeed won't be paid, Grunt is betrayed at the decision, Legion is almost certainly killed...

I always visit the council first -> Jacob and Miranda are my only squadmates.

[BlueMagitek]

PMC65 wrote...

Cerberus could have done a lot of things and Liara took a huge chance with giving them Shepard's body, romanced or not. I 100% agree that it was a huge risk and that any and all Shepards can have resentment, anger, etc with that move. No debate there.

But claiming that Liara made Shepard work with Cerberus is not true. That was Shepard's choice ... or Bioware if you want to get technical. As to why Shepard worked with Cerberus is up to each player to RP the motivation and making it Liara holding a gun over him/her is a stretch. But I guess if you want to go that route, your $$$ ... your game!

It's been a awhile since I played ME2 so you might be right ... but you certainly do not have to help her out with the Shadow Broker to get her to tell you. I always wondered why Bioware did not have an option where Shepard could ask Miranda or Jacob how they got him but such is the game. I think it might have been interesting to have had Miranda tell Shepard.

But since I like all three characters and their romances I'm not in the "my boyfriend is better than your boyfriend" debate. They all have their pros and cons ...

Fair enough.

No, you're right, it was Shepard's decision in the end.  But the option would never had presented itself had she not given Shepard to Cerberus.

Eh, it's been a while for me, I just browsed some youtube videos of Liara's first meeting on Illium.  And Bioware didn't let you ask a lot of things.  Poor Soul Survivor completely forgot about Akuze, apparently. ~_~

This isn't because I like the VS romance more, which I do; it's because I find Liara's actions to be really creepy, even if you do romance her.

[BlueMagitek]

Barquiel wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Miranda and Jacob? cerberus operatives...

I wouldn't do it, but Liara has nothing to do with it

The entire crew and the squadmates that you've collected.  I'm sure Jack & Kasumi (criminals) would be happy to be turned over to C-Sec.  Garrus will be more than happy to be, you know, back to the place he despised and not doing anything of value.  Zaeed won't be paid, Grunt is betrayed at the decision, Legion is almost certainly killed...

I always visit the council first -> Jacob and Miranda are my only squadmates.

In that case, you're truly screwed, as Ryzaki's post goes over. 

[Jackal7713]

Skullheart wrote...

I never liked how her romance started in ME1. VS was far better than hers.

And in ME2, she stopped being Liara. The character assassination that she went through is one of the thing that I dislike from her character.

What character assassination are you talking about? Her character evolved as it should have. Remaining the same Liara after ME 1 would have been boring to say the least.

What is creepy about the Liara romance? Nothing at all.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:27 .

[Barquiel]

BlueMagitek wrote...

This isn't because I like the VS romance more, which I do; it's because I find Liara's actions to be really creepy, even if you do romance her.

What actions do you find creepy?

[BlueMagitek]

Barquiel wrote...

What actions do you find creepy?

I've already posted why on the first page.

But if you'd like an easy point to dissect, it's clearly only because she's a closet Asari-phile.  Going after humans like that.  Ugh; purebloods going after purebloods is why we have problems in the first place.

[Ryzaki]

Frankly having Shep's busted armor in a case is where my Shep started getting distrubed. Before she was moderately creepy but mostly cute and young and okay. He's just plain creeped out by her now won't stay in the same room if he can help it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:37 .

[PMC65]

Skullheart wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Also, the airlock choice in ME1 would have meant no ME2 for those Shepards after you were spaced. No bueno.

Cerberus could have recovered Shepard's body without Liara. Feron was their agent, not Liara.  They could have contacted any other of Shepard friends or even use their own operatives to recover Shepard.

I personally would have preferred that method of Cerberus finding Shepard alone but that is not how Bioware wrote it. I can wish that it had happened a billion different ways but I get what the game gives. It's within that structure that I work my RP's so I'm not sure why people talk about "airlocking" anyone based on character/story. Can you imagine the crew as Shepard walks (put character here) to the airlock and gives him/her the boot? Yeh, that would make me think "I want to follow this guy/gal!" Next planet they touch down the bulk of the crew would desert ... I know that I would.

Personally I didn't like Anderson at the start ... But dang it all to heck Shepard had at least a "friendly" relationship with him. So I put on my big girl pants and instead of letting it wreck my immersion or give me cause to whine that my Shepard had to be friends with him I took another path. I let Bioware's direction challenge me to find a way to make it feasible that Shepard would at the least like the guy. After struggling with the character I am now OK with him and found reasons for each of my Shepards to have a beer with him.

But to each his/her own. Your $$$ ... your game!

[PMC65]

BlueMagitek wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Cerberus could have done a lot of things and Liara took a huge chance with giving them Shepard's body, romanced or not. I 100% agree that it was a huge risk and that any and all Shepards can have resentment, anger, etc with that move. No debate there.

But claiming that Liara made Shepard work with Cerberus is not true. That was Shepard's choice ... or Bioware if you want to get technical. As to why Shepard worked with Cerberus is up to each player to RP the motivation and making it Liara holding a gun over him/her is a stretch. But I guess if you want to go that route, your $$$ ... your game!

It's been a awhile since I played ME2 so you might be right ... but you certainly do not have to help her out with the Shadow Broker to get her to tell you. I always wondered why Bioware did not have an option where Shepard could ask Miranda or Jacob how they got him but such is the game. I think it might have been interesting to have had Miranda tell Shepard.

But since I like all three characters and their romances I'm not in the "my boyfriend is better than your boyfriend" debate. They all have their pros and cons ...

Fair enough.

No, you're right, it was Shepard's decision in the end.  But the option would never had presented itself had she not given Shepard to Cerberus.

Eh, it's been a while for me, I just browsed some youtube videos of Liara's first meeting on Illium.  And Bioware didn't let you ask a lot of things.  Poor Soul Survivor completely forgot about Akuze, apparently. ~_~

This isn't because I like the VS romance more, which I do; it's because I find Liara's actions to be really creepy, even if you do romance her.

Liara's actions are slightly creepy as far as human standards go ... not sure how it really fits in the asari world of thought. I had a post in the ME2 Liara thread about Shepard worried about the next time that she dies ... it didn't go over well since sometimes talking about a character in a darker light isn't always acceptable.

I can see where Shepards can really freak about what she did and the whole armor in the apartment when you didn't romance her. In the non-romanced Shepard games this can be very concerning and they have different responses from "Oh, crap" to "oh, my ... uh, Liara?".

That's just one of the problems with choices ... it's hard to really give different scenes apparently. The armor and dog tags should not have been in the games where Liara is not romanced IMO ... but there they are so I have to RP how those Shepards feel about it and Liara.

[Barquiel]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

What actions do you find creepy?

I've already posted why on the first page.

Ah, I found it

But I still don't understand what's so creepy.

- Shepard is missing.
- Liara gets an anonymous tip that someone has information about Shepard.
- Liara travels to Omega.

Yes, she could have just ignored the tip...but why should she? Shepard is her lover, her friend, and/or the person who saved her life on Therum.

[BlueMagitek]

PMC65 wrote...

Liara's actions are slightly creepy as far as human standards go ... not sure how it really fits in the asari world of thought. I had a post in the ME2 Liara thread about Shepard worried about the next time that she dies ... it didn't go over well since sometimes talking about a character in a darker light isn't always acceptable.

I can see where Shepards can really freak about what she did and the whole armor in the apartment when you didn't romance her. In the non-romanced Shepard games this can be very concerning and they have different responses from "Oh, crap" to "oh, my ... uh, Liara?".

That's just one of the problems with choices ... it's hard to really give different scenes apparently. The armor and dog tags should not have been in the games where Liara is not romanced IMO ... but there they are so I have to RP how those Shepards feel about it and Liara.

And Asari standards.  Don't forget, we don't see her trying to bring back her mother; we meet another Asari who was paired with a human on Illium.  The human passed away and the Asari was dealing with grief, not going on a mad operation in a vain attempt to bring that human back.  And yeah, some fans are pretty crazy defensive.

Agreed.

Easy enough.

Shepard:  Admiral Hackett, sir, why did you give my tags to Liara instead of my mother (Spacer)/Anderson (others)?
Hackett:  Have you ever tried red sand, Shepard?  I wouldn't suggest mixing that and paperwork.
Shepard:

[Skullheart]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

I never liked how her romance started in ME1. VS was far better than hers.

And in ME2, she stopped being Liara. The character assassination that she went through is one of the thing that I dislike from her character.

What character assassination are you talking about? Her character evolved as it should have. Remaining the same Liara after ME 1 would have been boring to say the least.

What is creepy about the Liara romance? Nothing at all.

She was an innocent and young asari archaeologist at the end of ME1. In redemption she was a cold and semi-ruthless asari with the powers of a matriarch, a 180° change

The change of persona was too abrupt, and innecesary. I rather to have her leading an investigation on Ilos (better grow on her character, doing something she likes) than hunting Shepard's body.

[Drone223]

Skullheart wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

I never liked how her romance started in ME1. VS was far better than hers.

And in ME2, she stopped being Liara. The character assassination that she went through is one of the thing that I dislike from her character.

What character assassination are you talking about? Her character evolved as it should have. Remaining the same Liara after ME 1 would have been boring to say the least.

What is creepy about the Liara romance? Nothing at all.

She was an innocent and young asari archaeologist at the end of ME1. In redemption she was a cold and semi-ruthless asari with the powers of a matriarch, a 180° change

The change of persona was too abrupt, and innecesary. I rather to have her leading an investigation on Ilos (better grow on her character, doing something she likes) than hunting Shepard's body.

I do like the Liara romance but I agree, Bioware are trying too hard to make her important to the plot, if Liara is on Mars she must have a very good reason not being at the shadow broker base where she is more usefull

Modifié par Drone223, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:00 .

[BlueMagitek]

Barquiel wrote...

Ah, I found it

But I still don't understand what's so creepy.

- Shepard is missing.
- Liara gets an anonymous tip that someone has information about Shepard.
- Liara travels to Omega.

Yes, she could have just ignored the tip...but why should she? Shepard is her lover, her friend, and/or the person who saved her life on Therum.

- Shepard is dead, not missing (Liara may have witnessed this herself).  Considering that we just left Beneziah's body there to be eaten by Rachni or cleansed in whatever fire is set to the station, Asari clearly don't have a thing about their dead's bodies being mistreated.
- And this is fine.
-  Also fine.

You're missing the point; handing over your friend's dead body to a black ops group that they're probably against is not something a reasonable person does.  And she doens't rationalize it differently, it's just because she couldn't stand to be without Shepard.  That's rather obsessive and dark, not charming.  Then she has various keepsakes of Shepard (which would be normal if it wasn't a piece of the armor you were wearing while you died).

And she does this, with the same line of thinking (must get Shepard back because of my emotions), regardless of how you treat her in ME 1, or when you save her in ME 1. 

[PMC65]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And Asari standards.  Don't forget, we don't see her trying to bring back her mother; we meet another Asari who was paired with a human on Illium.  The human passed away and the Asari was dealing with grief, not going on a mad operation in a vain attempt to bring that human back.  And yeah, some fans are pretty crazy defensive.

Agreed.

Easy enough.

Shepard:  Admiral Hackett, sir, why did you give my tags to Liara instead of my mother (Spacer)/Anderson (others)?
Hackett:  Have you ever tried red sand, Shepard?  I wouldn't suggest mixing that and paperwork.
Shepard:

Don't get me started on how they had the whole Benezia getting gunned down in front of Liara. That should have been handled differently ... but oh, well. Whoot there it is!

I knew that red sand was responsible for some crazy crap in the game ... Looking at Miranda agreeing with the destruction of the collector base.

[elarem]

Creepy? Yes, I think Liara is creepy. I had a male Shepard romance her - must have chosen the wrong dialogue options at the 'culmination' - yuck! Much better with my female Shepard. But once I found out that you could recruit Liara after Virmire the problem was sorted - although she still couldn't let Shepard go!

The Virmire Survivor romances I liked. Nice warm normal human beings that you could relate to, and with some funny moments.

[Skullheart]

Shepard loves red sand, I recall: "Can you mate with your own species?"